VW motor info needed

[Don Jones]

A bit off topic but I know a lot of VW motor builders here.
My local buggy shop has a couple motors that interest me. They do not have a dyno so hp numbers have varied depending on who I was talking to. Anyone venture to guess what I could expect performance wise? Pics attached with information tag. Complete motor has duel 44 webers and a Scat aluminum case. The second motor less induction has the same internals but with a mag case. I think! I can get more info if needed.
Thanks

[Amon]

Don,

I assume there at the LA Pro shop ? What are your intentions with these motors
as the one motor is listed at 2100+ cc"s?

Mark

[Don Jones]

I have a chassis the motor could be used for. either a FS , As or track day car

[provamo]

i would definitely select the one with the turbo!

[Daryl DeArman]

I'd be very suspect of any numbers north of 180 for that combo. Not saying it's not possible. That's just something I would want to be there for the dyno run.

We don't know CR and condition. So those are major assumptions as to ball park.

[problemchild]

While 1835s and 2180s were powerful and reliable in off-road racing, they did not transfer well to road racing. The fanbelts don't like rpm, and the valve covers, sumps, etc don't like sustained G-loads. Usually the torque numbers were more impressive than the HP numbers.

[djones]

Would use a dry sump system and ditch the alteranter . my other question is you much HP can a stock vw trans take? They said i can choose ratios and have built buggies with well over 200hp with stock trans with no problems.

[problemchild]

If you get rid of the fan, then you have to cool the heads which are generating twice as much HP as a FST engine, which surprisingly was much more difficult to cool than a FV engine. It seemed like it needed 100% more cooling with a 30% increase in power. Even with the dry sump, AC VW engines have trouble with controlling the oil as it gets into the heads and wants to stay there.The engines were designed for 35 hp at 50 mph.
You seem determined to do this, but you will have some challenges. Why not just buy a track day car with a powerful engine that was designed as such? If you insist on the ACVW course, old Supervees were awesome cars that you can now buy cheap.

[Stan Clayton]

If you get rid of the fan, then you have to cool the heads which are generating twice as much HP as a FST engine, which surprisingly was much more difficult to cool than a FV engine. It seemed like it needed 100% more cooling with a 30% increase in power. Even with the dry sump, AC VW engines have trouble with controlling the oil as it gets into the heads and wants to stay there.

Are smaller primary fan pulleys available to reduce the speed of the fan?

[Hardingfv32]

The fan speed is not specifically the issue. It seems to be difficult keep the belt in position above 6000 rpm.

Greg is right... dune buggy engines do not cut it in a road racer. There are no cheap work arounds to a road racing VW engine.

Brian

[problemchild]

Are smaller primary fan pulleys available to reduce the speed of the fan?

I am sure there are all kinds of engineering options. It just does not seem like a good track day car in my opinion. With hundreds of oddball formula cars out there that are cheap, reliable, but don't have a class, you could choose some pretty powerful options. Just as a casual observer, I have never seen a Beetle road race car that was not followed by a cloud of blue smoke, usually followed by squealing fanbelt, and a really big cloud of blue smoke ...... then an early trip home. Similar stories for Corvairs and old SuperVees. Obviously, Porsches have been raced very successfully, but I think they start with a better base platform.

My guess is that Don has his passion for this project and will proceed. That is what fast cars are all about

[scorp997]

Just as a casual observer, I have never seen a Beetle road race car that was not followed by a cloud of blue smoke, usually followed by squealing fanbelt, and a really big cloud of blue smoke ...... then an early trip home.

Then you haven't seen this car that runs in our area. Always a head-turner

[djones]

Thanks guys. I just happen to have a spare Banshee chassis which is designed for a vw motor. And these motors are just a few miles down the road so got me thinking. I have looked at a bunch of old air cooled super vee pictures. Looks like pretty straight forward ducting for the most part. How about a chain driven fan? Or electric. Just thinking outloud
Not dead set on this project but giving it some thought.
Thanks again

[problemchild]

Thanks guys. I just happen to have a spare Banshee chassis which is designed for a vw motor. And these motors are just a few miles down the road so got me thinking. I have looked at a bunch of old air cooled super vee pictures. Looks like pretty straight forward ducting for the most part. How about a chain driven fan? Or electric. Just thinking outloud
Not dead set on this project but giving it some thought.
Thanks again

If I had to make this work, I would start with a proven, conservative built 1835 with dry sump, bolt on valve covers with external one-way drains and big vents on each side, belt driven fan, and overgear it so it runs under 6K rpm. I would have a big overheating warning light, a supply of belts, , and be prepared to change them often. I would probably explore better belt alternatives (double-vee, serpentine, etc).

My personal choice would be a rotary Mazda and a big muffler

Perhap the FST guys would welcome you if you ran a legal FST engine and tires.

[B Farnham]

If your dead set on an air-cooled formula car we have 5 FV's about 30 mins from you if you'd like to stop by sometime

[rgu]

In 1972 an acquaintance of mine, Allen Tueehaft of Toledo Ohio ran a VW Super Beetle in the Trans Am under 2L series. He did rather well against the Datsuns and the Alphas especially if you were a VW enthusiast. I think he might have finished 8th in points maybe. (Too lazy to look it up). I watched the car at Mid Ohio where I (again guessing) was about 5th overall. In my mind the car was faster in Madness than anything around it.

It was very well driven by ex Vee driver John McCollister who I know enjoyed moving up to a Pro ride. As others have pointed out the wet sump 1600 motor had problems, but Al felt that if they weren't married to the the SCCA mandated VW stock transmission ratios reliability would have been greatly improved.

And yes at Road America there there was so much air pressure on the hood that the hood flattened on the fuel cell.

After 45 years I think we have learned how to make the 1600 motor live by limiting hp and RPM and making sure component parts are high quality especially using dry sump oiling.

Here is a pic

[Doug FST 5]

I'd ask the builder lots of questions about the way the bottom end was done. If these engines aren't carefully balanced they will eat a bearing in a weekend. Full throttle at 6K+rpm for the whole weekend is a different mission than many buggy motors are built for.

Doug FST 5