FV future #2 wheel dimensions

[BLS]

"Let's have some proposals that will!"

What opportunities realistically exist for reducing cost?

tires
brakes
engine

I don't know of anything else that could be done. Brakes are probably minor, but at the current carbotech cost maybe worth considering. Engine investments being what they are, I'm not sure much can be done there. That leaves only the tires. What am I missing?

[problemchild]

"Let's have some proposals that will!"

What opportunities realistically exist for reducing cost?

tires
brakes
engine

I don't know of anything else that could be done. Brakes are probably minor, but at the current carbotech cost maybe worth considering. Engine investments being what they are, I'm not sure much can be done there. That leaves only the tires. What am I missing?

The FV community has overwhelmingly supported the status quo. Anyone who does not, gets frustrated, and moves on ..... which means the community has gotten even more conservative, if that is possible. Right now, the elite drivers are hoping to delay the spec tire another year ..... so they can continue to collect contingencies ..... not concerned about the couple hundred who don't get contingencies. That is just the way it is, so trying to bring forward proposals with real change is just pointless.

Perhaps Chris has proposals coming for spec brake pads or restricted transmission ratios. While I doubt the community will embrace them, they may have enough merit for extended discussion.

[Hardingfv32]

What opportunities realistically exist for reducing cost? What am I missing?

What you are missing is viable solutions. Solutions that save money for the majority of current competitors.

We have a spec tire coming.

The manifold issue was decided and the majority of competitors have made manifold purchases based on that decision. You are not going to be able to undue that decision. A different engine is not a cost reduction for current competitors.

Brake shoes are a possibility but there are only two suppliers available. I doubt SCCA would get involved with specifying and getting a price guaranty. What is the science behind the belief that the Carbotechs are superior? Is this the case that the most expensive is the best?

The fact is there are no simple solutions. Restating the same cost reduction speeches is just a waste of time. Save your energy for solutions that are acceptable to the majority of current competitors.

Brian

[Chris Elwell]

I think the idea that FV can attract karting kids is pretty unrealistic. Why would they want a car with 60 year old parts and that is slower than a kart? We need to attract the hobbyist type who will stay in FV his/her whole career because of the low cost and great competition.

There are only two ways to reduce cost:
1) Tires
2) Entry Fees

Everything else in FV is pretty damn cheap. For example, we have the cheapest engine rebuild cost of any class. VW parts are cheap and pretty robust.

So...
1) Make a tire that lasts one season. $900 for tires would be easier to stomach if you only had to buy them once a year. Assume 4 sessions per weekend x 5 weekends = 20 sessions per year. So build a tire that is good for 30 sessions to be safe. Hopefully the Hoosier spec tire will get closer to that. The Falkens are good for 100+ sessions.
2) $500-600 entry fees have to go. That is a crazy price to pay for 1-2 hours of track time. Get it back down to ~$350. When I started in 2011, entry fees were all $300-400 even for a double regional.

[grapefarmeral]

Chris is right about tires and entry fees. I was getting some welding done on my car at a local fabrication shop that builds and repairs late model dirt cars. The Vee was an oddity and there were lots of questions. One of the questions was how much money can you win? There were blank stares when I responded with we win ashtrays and wall plaques... When the subject of entry fees came up they were about to call the guys in white coats for me.... It seems they were in the midst of the local tracks raising the entry fees from $15. to $20. dollars and they weren't very happy.

[BLS]

What you are missing is viable solutions. Solutions that save money for the majority of current competitors.

We have a spec tire coming.

The manifold issue was decided and the majority of competitors have made manifold purchases based on that decision. You are not going to be able to undue that decision. A different engine is not a cost reduction for current competitors.

Brake shoes are a possibility but there are only two suppliers available. I doubt SCCA would get involved with specifying and getting a price guaranty. What is the science behind the belief that the Carbotechs are superior? Is this the case that the most expensive is the best?

The fact is there are no simple solutions. Restating the same cost reduction speeches is just a waste of time. Save your energy for solutions that are acceptable to the majority of current competitors.

Brian

Brian,

I did not make a cost reduction speech, nor mention "simple" solutions. If anything I acknowledged there is very little that can be done to reduce costs in what is a low cost class to begin with. Tires being the exception. They may be coming, but none of us know this. It is now post runoffs, October 2016. When do you expect the SCCA announcement?

Regards,
Barry

[BLS]

"...fabrication shop that builds and repairs late model dirt cars. ::: When the subject of entry fees came up they were about to call the guys in white coats for me.... "

Well, nothing has changed since the 70's. "They" had the same reaction back then

[FVRacer21]

The topic being discussed is wheel dimensions.

If you cannot stay on topic please either start your own thread or pm me and I will be glad to consider another thread. We have all winter.

Soapbox on:
Comments like "that is stupid", "we tried that 20 years ago and it did not work", "if it does not save me $$$ I am not interested it", would not cut it at a 6 grade debate; so please refrain from using them.
Soapbox off:

Thanks,

Chris

[butch deer]

"...fabrication shop that builds and repairs late model dirt cars. ::: When the subject of entry fees came up they were about to call the guys in white coats for me.... "

Well, nothing has changed since the 70's. "They" had the same reaction back then

My new job at "Brakeometer" has got me to a lot of short track stock car events. It's a world of racing I never really understood in my 50+ year involvement with FV and SCCA. Every class has a spec tire(mostly Hoosiers with some American Racers) I still see lots of tires being sold although some tracks limit the # of new tires at any event. While entry fees in most places are a $20 to $40 pit pass I takes a lot of crew to run a successful program and everyone going into the pit area needs a pit pass so most teams have anywhere from 4 to ten people with them at 4 to 10 times the $30 average pit pass. Most drivers actively pursue some sponsorship. This can lower the cost but it takes some effort. You can also cut the cost of racing by treating it like a business and deducting your losses. this cuts your cost by whatever percentage you pay in income tax. (O K if your Donald Trump you won't save anything.) In road racing it's hard to get cheaper than FV. There are even track day people that spend way more than a Vee budget.

Sorry for the rant but there is no such thing as cheap racing at the front of the field. Lower your costs with regional series like the successful east coast challenge series. If you love the Runoffs be prepared to say goodbye to cheap racing. 50% or more of your costs are determined by travel,housing entry fees, paddock fees ,etc.

[Hardingfv32]

The topic being discussed is wheel dimensions.

That subject was covered and closed with the first few posts.... bad idea.

1) Most competitors are not going to buy a different wheel unless it is a performance enhancer.

2) Most serious competitors have a large investment in their current stock of wheels. They are not in the market for more wheels.

3) An alt wheel is authorized. What prevents me from manufacturing a wheel that represents a performance enhancement? Every rule change is an opportunity for unplanned consequences.

If you want to control a thread... keep it relevant.

Brian

[Hardingfv32]

There are only two ways to reduce cost:
1) Tires
2) Entry Fees

1) There are cheaper tires available BUT the majority of current FV competitors have stated that they want expensive racing slicks. They have clearly decided that the experience enjoyed form racing on slicks is more important than trying to attract new competitors with a cost effective tire.

Restating: The majority of current competitors are more interested in the quality of their driving experience than they are in attracting new competitors. This is an easy to understand statement that is going to control every effort to control FV costs.

2) On the West Coast we have two club owned tracks. Their entry fees are about the same as other road coarse in the area. These are not huge profit centers for the clubs that own the tracks. It would be my conclusion that their are valid reasons for the high entry fees and that they are not going to change. High entry fees are here to stay.

Brian

[BLS]

" High entry fees are here to stay."

They are the same, or less, as they were in the 70's, adjusted for inflation.

1975 $200 entry fee = $900 in 2016.

[grapefarmeral]

The cost of entry fees may be equal, but there are other things that decrease disposable income.. so costs are important..

http://www.mybudget360.com/wp-conten...ving-chart.jpg