FV future #2 wheel dimensions

[FVRacer21]

2nd of a Series

Okay we have just had a successful event (SCCA Runoffs) where we established our class as the largest formula class there, and attracted new blood from karting, one of whom is the son of a Indy 500 winner.

To keep FV relevant, and yet also a entry level class, I want to propose some changes and discuss the pros and cons. I would like to keep each thread factual and focused. If there is another idea we can break it off into its own thread.

The threads must be self-policing. If someone writes something that does not belong to the thread - DO NOT RESPOND.

If the person feels the point is valid they can pm me to start a new thread, or they can start their own. Hey, I can dream can't I?

Okay, for idea # 2.

I propose that the wheel dimensions for FV stay just as they are - 15” diameter and either 4” or 4.5”. The open part is "Should we allow alternate wheels of these dimensions in FV?"

Reasons:

If you made skis 1 foot wide, would they still be skis? If a baseball bat was the diameter of a basketball would it still be a baseball bat? So why does FV need wider tires?

The current size tires balance out the existing horsepower and can even handle a little more. The aero of the smaller tire allows a FV to get to reasonable speeds for an entry level class while still creating enough drag for drafting.

If we are looking for a spec tire, a harder compound would not slow the cars down much, if at all, while extending the life so most competitors could run a full season easy on a set of tires and have something left over for practice.

Now the 64K question – do we need another wheel in FV? Interesting enough, aluminum wheels might be heavier that what we have, less aerodynamic, and more prone to damage.

Here is one possible wheel I found, although if we were to allow other wheels, I assume some manufacturer will step up and provide one for our needs: http://vwcatalog.empius.com/vwcatalog/2016/264.html

Possible issues.

Are there enough wheels out there for FV to grow? I think there is, when you figure that many of us have stockpiles of wheels. Most of the “bent” or out-of-round wheels should be able to be fixed. We may throw a beam away (we shouldn’t) when bent, but wheels can be repaired.

Okay, time to comment. Do you feel we should:
1. Keep FV wheels at the current size?
2. Allow alternate wheels that meet the dimensional specs?

If the results are positive, then they can be submitted to the new ad hock committee or put up for a class vote.

Chris Z
Citation #23
061987

[Matt Clark]

Good, lightweight VW wheels are becoming harder to find. And when you do, people want a premium for them. Plus, part of the reason we are hard on tires is because they are so small. We put a lot of pressure on each inch of the rubber, wearing it out quicker. Same reasons rally cars use very narrow ice tires.

I like an updated wheel & tire idea. That seemed to get some appreciation, and obviously Challenge Cup is doing decent on that front too. FVCC uses a 14x6 wheel, however. I'd prefer a 15" wheel/tire to eliminate some of the sidewall movement. I love slicks, because of the extra speed, but I think radials are the way to go for the class either way.

Below are some pics of a Empi wheel Dad bought. Initially, we had FVCC equivalent Falkens on it, and I did run it at Watkins Glen in 2014. I thought that tire was too big, so Toyos were fitted & we went to Thompson last summer for radial tire Show & Tell up there (we took regular FVCC stuff too). We put them on some some cars, but the lugs we had were too long for the drums they had, and never made it on track. I think they look great when Fos bolted them on.

[S Lathrop]

Leave the wheel rules alone.

There currently are structural issues with the parts that the wheels bolt to. Change the wheels and you will aggravate the existing problems and almost certainly create new problems.

I have watched all the other SCCA formula car classes die because of all the "improvements" we have introduced over the years. FV has found the right relationship with "development" and cost control.

I think that the only changes that should be considered are those that directly address an existing problem of parts availability or suitability of the available parts for FV racing. And I would be very critical of any changes that were not cost effective, like reducing the cost of racing FV.

One way to look at a racing class is to compare the cost of a new car to medium income. Currently that is something around $50,000 per year. When FV was relatively new, you could buy a new Zink for $3200. Medium income at that time was $8,000. Today, FV survives by still being maybe 50% of medium income. FF and FC have risen to nearly double medium income. The cost of replacing the car that won FC runoffs this year is well north of $100,000.

Bottom line don't screw with the success of FV or it will join FF and FC as has been classes.

Sorry for the rant.

[Matt Clark]

There currently are structural issues with the parts that the wheels bolt to. Change the wheels and you will aggravate the existing problems and almost certainly create new problems.

I don't mean to question your knowledge on this aspect, Steve... but I guess it's gonna sound like I kinda am here...

If this is true, how is it that all other FV classes in the world have been able to change at this point? Even FVCC & F1200 for years have been able to.
From what I have seen, the modern slicks put way more force thru the parts the wheels bolt to because of the incredible grip. If you lower the grip, there is less force.
Following cars thru the corners, I have seen tons of twisting & flex on slicks, way less on radials. Obviously that flex would vary with each package you'd try to run, though.

[S Lathrop]

I don't mean to question your knowledge on this aspect, Steve... but I guess I kinda am here...

If this is true, how is it that all other FV classes in the world have been able to change at this point? Even FVCC & F1200 for years have been able to.
From what I have seen, the modern slicks put way more force thru the parts the wheels bolt to because of the incredible grip. If you lower the grip, there is less force.
Following cars thru the corners, I have seen tons of twisting & flex on slicks, way less on radials. Obviously that flex would vary with each package you'd try to run, though.

Because they are built around much newer VW parts. The use ball joint front ends among other things. The cars are much closer to Fst than FV.

[Matt Clark]

Because they are built around much newer VW parts. The use ball joint front ends among other things. The cars are much closer to Fst than FV.

I knew they are almost all now the ball-joint front ends, but I was under the impression they still had the link pin & drums for a long time after they first changed?

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

I tend to agree with Steve. Don't really see any advantage to switching away from the wheels that are currently used. CIP1 is currently selling new chrome 15" x 4.5" wheels for $89.00 each. What other class in SCCA can you buy new wheels for less than twice that price.

I would be in favor of different wheels only if it was to support some kind of long lasting spec tire that would reduce the overall cost of racing. Like the Challenge cup uses.

[Ed Womer]

This is going to be an interesting thread. Yes Steve has been around racing for a long time but so have some of us as well. Although I haven't been actively racing vee's since 2011 except for one race last year and one again a couple of weeks ago, both have been with the Challenge Cup in borrowed cars. Both times have been a great experience with good racing and not having to change tires constantly to try and manage the slicks for some additional longevity that can be obtained.

If you even consider the idea of leaving the class rules as is you are not looking at the whole picture. Just look at any of the old vintage cars would or should be enough to jog your brain into reality. The early cars are so far from the state of the art cars in so many ways they really aren't even remotely the same. Just look at a few of the items that technology and development have changed.

Having 3 shocks now instead of 4 but that will set you back $2-3K. You could look at intake manifolds as well and allowing rules creep you now need $1500+ manifolds to be competitive. Tires have and if allowed to remain the same will be an increasing cost that will almost start to drive competitors away. The big problem is the constantly escalating entry fees that there seems to be no way to control since it is considered to be a market driven cost and since the club hasn't been able to address all of the competing organizations who also provide track access.

If you look at the Challenge Cup series and the reduction of tire costs you can save a considerable amount of money once past the up front cost of the tire wheel package which will break even by the second or third race weekend for slick tire costs. Is this the best way to go? Some of the class or most of the front runners don't think so nothin will ever change since they want to preserve there advantage in expensive equipment and parts they have invested in. Unfortunately almost everywhere else in the world most club racing is on radial tires to help control the cost of racing.

The best way to compare costs is to figure out what it costs to do any type of activity by its cost per minute to play. If you do this approach don't hide cost because you don't think that all of the things you speed on just to prepare for the activity as not associate with it, because you won't have a good idea of what it really costs.

Yes vee has the biggest formula class at the runoffs but the parts situation will someday start to affect the class and I don't see a solution unless there is a way to manufacture inexpensive replacement parts and that doesn't seem to be happening.

Racing has always been expensive but staying with unobtainable parts will make it even more expensive.

Ed

[S Lathrop]

ED;

I have been sketching on a disk brake replacement for the current FV drum brakes. So I think I am looking a bit forward.

I see this as a cost issue and a parts availability issue. I have been told that the off the shelf front drums are becoming questionable as to being even serviceable and that replacing brake shoes is a $1000 job.

Changing wheels does not fit in that category as I see it. But that is just my opinion/prejudice.

And I can see all kinds of issues that will arise with different wheels. It appears that in the picture, the tire center has moved outward with the new wheels. That alone causes a significant change in the loadings on the old link pin suspension. To fix that problem, maybe we will have to go to the ball joint front suspension.

I fear that for every change in the rule that allows a significant change to the cars, you see people dropping out of FV.

[Matt Clark]

the F1200 wheels can have variables from what we have found. Both in weights (15 vs 17 lbs) and backspacing. The current set of Diamond wheels I have does center the tire as best as possible. Any more, and you lose steering from the tire rubbing the front of the turkey leg. The Empi does have less offset, but still drove very nice.

just for reference, here are specs
http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/show...4&postcount=37
from this thread
http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64836

as a side note & for different discussion, wouldn't it be a good time to look at alternate wheels at the same time you look at disc brakes? kinda makes sense to me to look at a more standard 4 bolt wheel then. let's wait for Chris to start that thread first, though.

[Matt Clark]

and literally this just popped up... what does this do for the tire situation/price/response to us?
Hoosier is now owned by Continental.

http://www.imsa.com/news/102016/cont...re-corporation

[Amon]

As many of you know, my son Brian just raced his Citation FV at the M-O Runoff's. We inspected his tires after the race and found the left front had worn to the point that made it not useable in a race situation due to the deterioration of it. We can use it for testing, and maybe a regional race but they were brand new tires and unlike the radials used in the Challenge Cup, no longer competitive for another Majors race. So this should give some perspective on the tires. I do realize that NOT every FV in the race had deterioration such as ours, but I checked the 3rd place car and while they had less wear on the tire, there was still a visible deterioration.

Mark


88' Citation 002'

[Hardingfv32]

The left front wear at MO has been a problem for many decades.

The current Hoosier tire was operating at the high end of its operating temperature range the whole week of the Runoffs. You were required to have the car setup to take care of the left front. That includes the proper driving technique for the issues presented by the conditions.

The gold standard for that event was the condition of Varacins' tires after the race. The current FV tire was not developed to be easy to use. The priority was to be better than Goodyear at Road America. It is a tire that can provide an advantage to the above average driver.

Street radials are not race tires. Any level driver can get good performance from the tire. Tire management/setup is not a skill required in the CS.

Brian

[Amon]

Brian,

My son was up to 11th before spinning on oil in the carousel that had many drivers
doing the same thing. His car was set- up very well except we may have been a little
low in tire pressures, so we know how to set up the car. Plus we knew his LF would
take a beating, but he went full throttle in several area's he could have lifted and saved
the LF tire but he was trying to break away from the pack that caught him when he spun.
In regards to proper driving technique, any time you want to race against him, please come
out to Ohio and give it a try! Better idea is to make the Runoff's at Indy next year and
see how you compare against him, and needless to say my money is on him.
My initial reason for my previous post was to demonstrate that no matter how hard you try to wear out the radial tire, you won't get anywhere near the degradation you see with a Hoosier race tire!!!

Thank you for the driving and set up tips!

Mark

Citation 88' 002'

[FVRacer21]

I want to steer (pun intended) this thread back on track.

All we are discussing is the plus and minus of the current wheel SIZE. There will be discussion later for disc brakes, turbochargers and active suspension.

The general points of the thread are,
1: we have young kart drivers to promote
2: we are an entry level class

I don't know if Flynn or Alex are online, but would they consider FV if we had radial tires?

We need fresh blood.

So I want to continue the thread as to the size of the wheel/ tire package. I used to think a wider tire and wheel would make the cars more "sexy" but now I believe the existing tires and wheels are the right size for the class. Now if Continental wants to offer a street radial at a very attractive price and throw some class promotion, and we can make the tires work - my mind could be changed.

ChrisZ

Btw - I tried long distance to convince some people to try all rears at Mid Ohio. I believe our fronts are over stressed. I don't know if anyone was bold enough to try.

[Ed Womer]

Are there any street radial tire that would fit the existing wheel? What if the wheel was increased to 5"? I do like Matt's thinking along with Steve's thought about moving to disc breaks and considering a new tire wheel package for going in that direction. It would be better to think long range then just next week.

Ed

[Hardingfv32]

Are there any street radial tire that would fit the existing wheel?

What would be the point? The vast majority of FV competitors have stated the desire to use racing slicks.

Do you really think a former kart competitor is going to appreciate the grip levels found with street radials?

Brian

[Amon]

What would be the point? The vast majority of FV competitors have stated the desire to use racing slicks.

Do you really think a former kart competitor is going to appreciate the grip levels found with street radials?

Brian

They don't seem to mind them on a Spec Miata????

[FVRacer21]

Are there any street radial tire that would fit the existing wheel? What if the wheel was increased to 5"?

There is no street radial, but there is an alternate tire - that is the tire that they use in the vintage Vee series. And if you think this is not an acceptable tire, many FV groups around the world are accept ion this as Dunlop and Avon have pulled out of this market.

To Brian's question- I have emails out to some karters. Why don't we ask them directly?

Chris Z

[Hardingfv32]

We will be lucky to see Lazer in FV next year... certainly not beyond 2017. He has the money to move up F4 etc. at anytime his management desires.

Scaler is just a family member following tradition. How far is that going to get the class?

A lot of people are making a big thing of the FV runoff entries compared to other open wheel classes. It really does not speak accurately about the health of the class. SCCA FV is only functioning in the NE and SE. I would say that vintage FV is where the growth is for FV. Over time even current cars will be accepted in vintage. Upgrading to disc brakes etc. is just not going fit in with this transition to vintage.

Upgraded cars is not going to save SCCA FV as a class at this point. Current competitors are simply not going to be willing to pay for the upgrades when the limited time they have left to actually race.

You can talk all you want about needing new blood but the fact is that there is no strategy that can guaranty success in reaching that goal. Do the active old timers really see new blood improving their current racing experience?

Brian

[Hardingfv32]

They don't seem to mind them on a Spec Miata????

And you have evidence that karters are being drawn to SM?

Brian

[Amon]

Brian, here's a list of under thirty year olds at the 2016 M-O runoff's: FV

1.) Lazier
2.) Scaler
3.) Farnham
4.) Hayes
5.) Abbott
6.) Abbott
7.) Bertolucci

* Sorry if I missed anyone

** Other than Lazier, I don't see any of them going anywhere soon!

[Matt Clark]

as something to keep in mind, this may not be all about attracting kids from karts. it is about drawing the average Joe who wants to go open-wheel road racing, without spending crazy amounts. drivers that will come out & have fun racing as a hobby for a long time.
so there are aspects of the class that I have repeatedly heard people dislike. these are the ones you need to cater to. I have several younger guys that are interested, but when I have to be honest about tire bills & things like that, they look at me like I'm crazy.
they want to see cheaper operating costs & easier upkeep & less maintenance.

I think people should try a treaded radial before they write off that option completely. they do not drive bad once you adjust for them. the right one probably would barely be noticeably different to many drivers.

but again.... yes, we may pick up some karting families if they realize how much skill can be picked up in FV, but that is the smaller audience.

[grapefarmeral]

On and on it goes.... Will Continental AG buying Hoosier have an effect on Formula Vee...? I think down the road it will be like the Goodyear experience. Just for laughs I looked up the yearly gross of Continental and it's $10.12 BILLION... Just for the sake of argument (there will be one) if you took 500 (I know it's a stretch) FV drivers and they each bought 5 (more of a stretch) new sets of tires for a total of 2500 sets at $750 per = $1,875,000. Now that may seem a lot to all but the most well heeled FV drivers, but when you express it in terms of percentage of overall gross, it works out to .000185%. Do you really think the Continental bean counters will have any sympathy for the U.S. Formula Vee community? Goodyear's counters had no trouble...

[S Lathrop]

I think people should try a treaded radial before they write off that option completely. they do not drive bad once you adjust for them. the right one probably would barely be noticeably different to many drivers.

I have reasonable experience changing cars to run on radial tires. Given the very limited options with a FV suspension, radial tires might work or they might just turn the FV into a monster to drive.

As an example, has anyone tried to run 4 degrees negative front camber lately? And how are you going to easily change spring rates at the front. And it maybe that the front will be the easier end to get to work on radial tires.

A whole bunch of F1600s have been parked because they are no longer fun to drive on the SCCA spec tire. And there are not a lot of people who can help fix the problems for some makes of cars. I am still working on my cars to get them fast on radials.

For tires, maybe someone should get Hoosier to build FV tires in their harder compounds and see how that works. It will be a ton less painful than switching to radials might be.

[grapefarmeral]

For tires, maybe someone should get Hoosier to build FV tires in their harder compounds and see how that works. It will be a ton less painful than switching to radials might be.[/QUOTE]

There were VROCs once upon a time and they lasted forever. You slid around and it was fun.. Now if those same 500 drivers now buy only 1 set a year that changes our percentage of their gross to .0000074%. We're going in the wrong direction to make a case for Continental to keep our specific tire size around

I've posted the comparison before about the dollar difference between Slicks and radials. With out all the descriptive math it was $30,000 for slicks over 10 years as opposed to $1500 for radials for the same period and number of sessions...

[Hardingfv32]

[QUOTE=Matt Clark;519719they want to see cheaper operating costs & easier upkeep & less maintenance.[/QUOTE]

And why would they look any farther than SRF or SM? They both have their own run group almost anywhere they run in the US. How can you possibly sell a car using 50 year old parts as easy upkeep and low maintenance?

I would not worry about Hoosier. They are not a high volume manufacture which was/is well know to Continental. They will serve as a path for the expansion of the marketing of Continental performance tires and brand in general.

Brian

[Daryl DeArman]

Do you really think a former kart competitor is going to appreciate the grip levels found with street radials?

The former kart competitor is likely already giving up many performance attributes by going to FV from a kart (depending on class). They know what they're gaining, they know what they are losing.

It's not like a bunch of ex karters are flocking to FV and staying there anyways.

[Daryl DeArman]

As an example, has anyone tried to run 4 degrees negative front camber lately? And how are you going to easily change spring rates at the front. And it maybe that the front will be the easier end to get to work on radial tires.

Valid points, but if everybody is stuck with the same maximum negative camber then it doesn't really matter if the tire isn't working at its' optimum, its' just working as well as it can on a FV.

Spring rates on a FV have a huge range of possibilities all the way from way too soft to way too stiff for any tire you want to throw on there. So the only issue is labor and cost involved in tuning/testing to optimize. Me? I'd just test with coil overs until I found the wheel rate the tire liked best than get as close as I could with the FV pack.

[FVRacer21]

Digest of previous posts (with my comments - please try to keep on track (oh the puns, the puns..)

"They don't seem to mind them (Radial Tires) on a Spec Miata????" Spec Miata is perceived to be a low cost, beginners class. By the time they see the surprise - the money is gone.

"We will be lucky to see Lazer in FV next year... certainly not beyond 2017. He has the money to move up F4 etc. at anytime his management desires." No driver looking to move up should stay in ANY class for more than 2 years.

"Scaler is just a family member following tradition. How far is that going to get the class?" If every driver brought one family member in, it would double the class.

"the fact is that there is no strategy that can guaranty success in reaching that goal." NO strategy at all, has a 100% chance of failure.

" I would say that vintage FV is where the growth is for FV." The suppliers and shops are not ignoring this group - it is growing.

"And you have evidence that karters are being drawn to SM?" See first entry

"here's a list of under thirty year olds at the 2016 M-O runoff's: FV

1.) Lazier
2.) Scaler
3.) Farnham
4.) Hayes
5.) Abbott
6.) Abbott
7.) Bertolucci"

And Laura Hayes is a female - a market too many are eager to abandon.

" it is about drawing the average Joe who wants to go open-wheel road racing, without spending crazy amounts." We cannot forget them - but we have over the last 10 years.

"Will Continental AG buying Hoosier have an effect on Formula Vee...?" Maybe - but not to worry about right now.

"I have reasonable experience changing cars to run on radial tires. Given the very limited options with a FV suspension, radial tires might work or they might just turn the FV into a monster to drive. " We have 30+ years of racing on radials to fall back on. Not my first choice, but not afaid of going there if I have to.

"For tires, maybe someone should get Hoosier to build FV tires in their harder compounds and see how that works. It will be a ton less painful than switching to radials might be." I concur, but not ready to close the door yet.

"And why would they look any farther than SRF or SM? They both have their own run group almost anywhere they run in the US. How can you possibly sell a car using 50 year old parts as easy upkeep and low maintenance?" SRF has been around since 1984 - 32 years. First Miata built in 1990 (actually 89 I think as a 1990 model) 26 years. The new Spec Miata Racer is $50K out the door. Neither SRF or SM is as easy to work on as a FV.

"The former kart competitor is likely already giving up many performance attributes by going to FV from a kart (depending on class). They know what they're gaining, they know what they are losing. " Only if they take an open look at FV. We have to promote the class. It will not promote itself.

ChrisZ

[B Farnham]

I understand the thought to get Karters to make the jump into FV but the fact of the matter is that most drivers that are looking to go pro will start in FF or FC not FV. Both Lazier and Scaler aren't paying their own way so I don't think cost is much of an issue for them but it is for the people FV should be trying to attract.

The target market should be 25+ year olds who want to spend their extra money on motorsports. For FV to grab that market it needs to be as cost effective as possible. Tires is obviously one of the biggest expenses so why not try and reduce that? I've driven on both the Falkens and Hoosiers and can say both are challenging in their own ways. I don't care what we use as long as I can run majors and not go through tires as fast as we do now.

Brian

[Bill Bonow]

These certainly look nice, but they many be a bit "spendy" for the typical FV'er

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifie...php?id=1951445

[Daryl DeArman]

I understand the thought to get Karters to make the jump into FV but the fact of the matter is that most drivers that are looking to go pro will start in FF or FC not FV. Both Lazier and Scaler aren't paying their own way so I don't think cost is much of an issue for them but it is for the people FV should be trying to attract.

The target market should be 25+ year olds who want to spend their extra money on motorsports. For FV to grab that market it needs to be as cost effective as possible. Tires is obviously one of the biggest expenses so why not try and reduce that? I've driven on both the Falkens and Hoosiers and can say both are challenging in their own ways. I don't care what we use as long as I can run majors and not go through tires as fast as we do now.

Brian

Not many karters beyond the age of 25 still aspire for that pro ride. Many find the perceived cost of open wheel racing full size cars to be prohibitive. That's mostly out of ignorance and assumptions that if they are spending 10x to race a kart, it must cost 20x to race the cheapest car.

Promote to the 25+yo karter spending a bunch of money karting.

They are going to want to know how much entry fees are (huge difference adv. kart)
How much a set of tires cost and how long they're competitive (currently a huge difference adv. kart)
Size of fields (depending on kart class and region could be a huge difference, adv. kart)

Engine and chassis costs are very similar and FV is cheaper if amortized over a decade or so. A karter will likely spend much more on new chassis, engines, and engine development over 10 years than 99%+ of the FV racers will over the same timeframe.

The biggest bang for the buck that moves that needle a bunch is the selection of the right FV tire.

[Michael_Clark]

And why would they look any farther than SRF or SM? They both have their own run group almost anywhere they run in the US. How can you possibly sell a car using 50 year old parts as easy upkeep and low maintenance?

Brian

I swore I'd never post about wheel / tire conversations again, but I simply cannot let Brian's comments go without a counterpoint.

Years ago, when my boys were still in their teens and we were looking to move up from karting, I took them to a SCCA Nationals at Watkins Glen to see the F500 cars. I had been involved with racing motorcycles and two-strokes all of my life, and just coming from karting, the F500 cars seemed like the most obvious progression. It was a done deal, I was there looking for F500 cars for sale.

So we were watching each of the F500 cars come up through the esses at the Glen, the lead F500, another one . . . then another . . . and another . . . and then the lead pack of 10 to 12 Vee's came by. They weren't as fast, not as streamlined, not as sexy. *BUT* those guys sure looked like they were having a LOT more fun. They drafted by each other back and forth in a pack the entire race while the F500 field strung out from the first lap on.

After that race, we went through the paddock to look at the cars. While the F500 guys answered our questions, the Vee guys talked to us. They took the time to show us the cars, let the boys sit in their cars, and sold us on FV. Not that the F500 guys did anything wrong, the Vee guys were simply more cordial. We made friendships that day that exist yet today. Guys like Ray Carmody, Ed Womer, Eugene Grimes, Gary Kittell, and many others took the time to talk with us. We came away looking for a better racing experience, not necessarily moving into the fastest class. Let's face it, while you might be able to afford other more expensive cars upfront, you also have to be able to afford the running costs. FV is simply less expensive to run. Do you want to run in the back to mid-pack because you can't afford to maintain a top-flight car and racing program, or would you rather run up front in a Vee on the same budget?

You underestimate what makes people choose a race group to run in.
.

[gbmetcalf]

Love these, but agree are a bit spendy at $565/ea

G

These certainly look nice, but they many be a bit "spendy" for the typical FV'er

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifie...php?id=1951445

[problemchild]

Why does FV need an alternate or different wheel?

I can make a phone call or two to friends who used to race FV and find a dozen. It seems to me that the decline in participation should feed part supply concerns.

I have had axles, axle tubes, and various other VW components advertised for years, and never get an inquiry.

My question has no agenda nor trolling tone. I just don't understand why the concern over most parts. I understand why some want spec manifolds, or different wheels so we can run cheaper tires, but I don't understand most of the parts concerns.

[Daryl DeArman]

Why does FV need an alternate or different wheel?

I can make a phone call or two to friends who used to race FV and find a dozen. It seems to me that the decline in participation should feed part supply concerns.

I have had axles, axle tubes, and various other VW components advertised for years, and never get an inquiry.

My question has no agenda nor trolling tone. I just don't understand why the concern over most parts. I understand why some want spec manifolds, or different wheels so we can run cheaper tires, but I don't understand most of the parts concerns.

I would argue that a cheaper tire budget is the objective. Not necessarily a parts availability problem.

That being said, there's a lot to be said in being able to pick up the phone (or click on a website) and order new good parts. In a matter of minutes they are boxed up and on their way to you. In the myriad of classes I've run over the years I've never met a group of racers that hoard more ol' parts and at the same time wait until the last damn minute to try to buy something they need.

[problemchild]

I would argue that a cheaper tire budget is the objective. Not necessarily a parts availability problem.
.

Chris has proposed an alternate wheel, not an alternate tire. Much like trying to get a steering rack to work well on a trailing arm beam suspension, IMO, it is just a waste of effort, without any performance benefit. I am all for change that reduces costs, but these proposals don't seem worth all the bickering and time that will be spent to have no impact on the racing. or the cost of racing. Let's have some proposals that will!

[Daryl DeArman]

Horse and cart. Don't you need an alternate wheel approved first? You can't use a much cheaper resemblance of a performance tire on the current wheel.

[FVRacer21]

Chris has proposed an alternate wheel, not an alternate tire.

Not to split hairs, but if you go back, I am saying their is maybe something special about the existing size of the wheel/ tire combination. So far I do not think many have addressed this.

The second question is if we stay with the current size is it worth exploring alternatives.

I probably should have stopped with:

Okay, time to comment. Do you feel we should:
1. Keep FV wheels at their current size?

Chris