Super Vee brakes

[johnhafkenschiel]

I need the OE brake parts applications for the calipers and rotors on my 1978 Ralt RT-1 supervee. I thought the rules required stock VW rotors and calipers.
It looks like the front calipers are from a 1972 VW Squareback.
The rear calipers are different with pistons about 48-50mm. What are they from?
What are the rotors from? Any of you supervee racers know?

[socaljeff3798]

Give me a call I can help you
Jeff 951-317-9307

[johnhafkenschiel]

still looking for source for rear calipers and all rotors.

[bobmic]

Hi John,

Do you have a picture or part number. I will check my 80 RT-5 this weekend and let you know what it has.

Bob Micheletti

[kea]

The brake disc may be very hard to get.
As I recall, they came off of the front of an Audi, 100LS, automatic with inboard brakes, that was made for only a few years. Machined different for the front or the rear.
The ATE calipers may be some what easier. Piston size, mounting bolt spread should help any VW-Porsche-Audi parts guy find a replacement.

[johnhafkenschiel]

thats funny....Audi 100 LS front rotors. If you found one in a wrecking yard, it might take about 2 hours labor to remove the OE inboard warped rotors. I think I will send my used ones as samples to Coleman Racing in Michigan. Anyone know the original thickness of the rotor used for road racing? One of my front rotors is the super thin "speedway" style...

[johnhafkenschiel]

My rear calipers are marked ATE. The left rear has a casting # Ate 112 Bolt spacing is 100mm. Piston diameter seems to be 48mm.
The front calipers are VW Type 3. Marked Ate 100. Bolt spacing is 76mm.
Are your rotors 10.5 mm thick?
Mine have been reground and are 10.1, 8.5!, 7.6!!, etc.

[kea]

I had a new set made back when I could still obtain the original Audi discs. The fronts are 9.5mm thick while the rears measure 10mm. The difference probably had to do with machining to obtain proper disc offset for the caliper.

[bobmic]

My rotors are 9.3mm rear and 8.8mm front. The rears are the ones with the aluminum hat.

Calipers I have a bunch of and not sure which were on the car. Some have 76mm bolt spacing and some have 100mm. They all appear to have 42mm bore. I have two sets of uprights front and rear. One set of fronts have the caliper holes drilled for the 100mm, all rears and the other fronts are drilled for 76mm spacing.

I thought it would be easy to identify the source of the calipers but after looking at dozens of pictures on Google it looks like many styles and casting numbers were used on type III, type IV, Ghia and type II. The early, pre 71 had a single pin to retain the pads which none of mine have. Mine all have two pins with the 100mm spacing having clips to lock the pins and the 76mm have a split ball on the pin that holds it. Both styles use the same pad.

My casting numbers are 97 on the small and 177 on the large.

[2fast2stop]

This is a picture of the calipers used on all Lola Super Vees. Standard VW Beetle front calipers. So Cal Imports sells brand new calipers very reasonable, P/N:3116151078.....

FGM



Attachment 63569

[2fast2stop]

Found another picture of the caliper on the bench..........

FGM


Attachment 63570

[johnhafkenschiel]

Keith is (of course) correct. The rotors are 1970 Audi 100LS automatic and those parts have to be machined to fit RT-1. Here is what I found for the RT-1 calipers:

Front: mounting flange spacing 76mm. Piston diameter 42mm.
The correct oe caliper is VW 1600 Squareback 1970.

Rear: Mounting flange spacing 100mm. Piston diameter 48mm.
OE caliper is 1970 Audi 100LS automatic trans.
German made repair kit by FTE Automotive #RKS4206

[kea]

I bought a pair of these, factory rebuilt ATE calipers, 42mm pistons, 76mm bolt spread so many years ago I don't remember the part number. These use the larger of the two common (old) Porsche/VW brake pads, Ferodo number, FDB-2. Then I found out that the bolt spread on my front uprights is 100mm. I have another front upright in a spare parts box that has a 90mm bolt spread.

[johnhafkenschiel]

My front uprights, (casting number RT 014) have 76mm bolt spacing. There is no room for 90 or 100 bolt holes. If you want to part with your calipers, let me know along with pricing.

[johnhafkenschiel]

I found a source for the caliper seal kits:
48mm ATE part number 250104
42mm FTE RKS4206

PMB Performance in Sandy Utah stocks these.

[Bob L.]

Doing a 83 RT5...found this thread...looked like super info, albeit, those 100mm spaced calipers are impossible (1970 Audi 100LS, automatic! as were all rotors)... Once into it, have found that my fronts are 100mm (ATE casting 177 and 202 on them), and rears are 78mm (ATE 112 casting #). just the opposite of what was listed here as to locations. Sort of think it makes sense, for the bigger piston bores to be on front. Perhaps earlier apex posts had locations reversed...front/rear...?

Contacted PMB about parts, they were less than up to speed on this (after consultation, told me Ralt was a special built car...needed to "see" to help...yeah? tell me something new?) With some patience, fellow found the 4206 kits, took longer but finally found the ATE250104 kits, too... so ordered 2 of each. Hope to see them...price was fair, around 75 bucks for 4 + shipping.. sure hope the bores and pistons are useable...

Also, spent some time thinking about just getting rid of the the VW/AUDI. This is a vintage car, but things do age out.. Found this other thread on apex...

https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/sho...per-Conversion

Haven't found a good shot on which way to upgrade... the ZX 10, doesn't seem to be "cheap" for me, has more to do (engineer/fab) with making brackets, and ports looked in wrong orientation for hoses...albeit, again, might just be I don't know enough to say......... Outlaw had the 4 puck jobs, about $200 each, limited supply due to virus, and not sure I can adapt to the 78 mm spacing as easily as the 100...have to tweek on bore sizes to get balance back using existing MCs., too. Did look at Wilwood, seems Dynalight/max 2 piston jobs might be possible, if I can get the spacing to do mount/moving... they offer 3.25 and 3.75" options... much cheaper than Outlaw, around 100-120/each ebay, etc...

As to rotors, taking a look at possibly using some VD's with built in hats, and moving the bolt/pin holes over a bit... for now going with the existing ones (old Audi), on about the last "turning" allowed...

So, if anyone has some more info, clarity, would appreciate...

for now....Off to make some type of jig/rig to try to get pistons out of old calipers off car... air pressure alone didn't move them...so, going to adapt a "retired" Healey clutch mc. to a plate, make a hand operated hydraulic "power source"....hope to see movement!

Just wanted to let others know, about the front/rear ....sizes, and numbers...sources... that I have located...today.

Bob L.

[Charlie Schmidt]

last resort
stack up whatever fittings you need to get a zerk fitting on the calipers...a grease gun puts out a lot of pressure

[scorp997]

an old school mechanic friend of mine uses a trick to free seized pistons on calipers.. He squirts some water down the brake line inlet then caps this port with a bolt. Using a torch, he heats the caliper slowly and between the heat and water pressure building up the piston pops (literally and sonically) out of the caliper body.

[Garey Guzman]

...Off to make some type of jig/rig to try to get pistons out of old calipers off car... air pressure alone didn't move them.......

I had some 12SP calipers that I got from a helpful person here and I thought he/you suggested hooking them up to the brake line on the car an slowly applying pedal. That worked for me and those 12SPs had not moved in a very long time!

[Bob L.]

Thanks...Been down this road many times in past...never easy...

several of these ideas have been thought of/tried in the past.... (well, not the water + torch => bomb?), .....

Excuses: no working brake system to hook up to; grease gun good, but needs to have all gas purged out to work, might be tough to flood system with grease using my grease gun (+ it doesn't make huge pressure, before grease leaks out someplace..)... etc....

Am working with a mixture of fittings, for sure... metric, or more likely BSP...adapters at calipers were odd hex... took skinny 17/32" wrench to hold flats to undo the lines on car...hope hole is 10mm straight, as it's a German caliper...

Safest is to stay with an incompressible fluid.....figured best/easiest to do would be to make a strand alone "brake" system, put caliper in vice, with pads, fill it up, then pump... and see which moves first...

In past, I've have to put c clamp on first side that moves, to get the other piston to break loose... then work back and forth/side to side, to work each/both piston(s) out... really depends on how bad the rust is if anything will come apart...also, have have to work out, then back, then out. to get apart...

If all else fails, may light the torch....look for steam/vapor trail as the first piston comes free! Am trying to salvage stuff, not put hole in the roof while keeping all my fingers!

Appreciated the thoughts.... keep commenting.... next: need new/cheap source for replacements...or refurbishment...

Bob L.

[scorp997]

Ha! I guess I should have added that he did clamp one side of the opposing pistons to break first loose, and did use a block of wood or aluminum in the disk recess so the piston didn’t become a projectile.

[myf5000]

Used a hydraulic body shop porta power, these sat for 30 years. You just have to work them out evenly.

[nelson]

i need the oe brake parts applications for the calipers and rotors on my 1978 ralt rt-1 supervee. I thought the rules required stock vw rotors and calipers.
It looks like the front calipers are from a 1972 vw squareback.
The rear calipers are different with pistons about 48-50mm. What are they from?
What are the rotors from? Any of you supervee racers know?

i been having the same problem and spending a lot of time in the web.... The are 'ate' calipers with f2455f -f6646 pads in mine but i can not get any info yet where to get parts or replacements hope you get ahead of me and share some info with me as well let you know if anything cameup...

[nelson]

i been having the same problem and spending a lot of time in the web.... The are 'ate' calipers with f2455f -f6646 pads in mine but i can not get any info yet where to get parts or replacements hope you get ahead of me and share some info with me as well let you know if anything cameup...

my rotors are >solid from a 75 rabbit. Good luck in your serch

[Garey Guzman]

i been having the same problem and spending a lot of time in the web.... The are 'ate' calipers with f2455f -f6646 pads in mine but i can not get any info yet where to get parts or replacements hope you get ahead of me and share some info with me as well let you know if anything cameup...

I got some stuff from Keith Averill, including pads for my Lola T326
http://www.racing-stuff.com/brakes.htm
He's been around long enough to know what my FSV needed.

[Slindsay]

K.Averill is great resource and provider. He has been there and done that! Years ago I did get replacement ATE caliper & rebuild kits for a 79 March SV from Mantis Racing in Oakville Ontario. They were very helpful . If it helps anybody , I do have 2 new sets of Ferodo DS11 FCP 3A marked 0795 on the pad. Think these were for the ATE calipers - length 2.19", width 2.09 and thickness of 0.595" with 2 upper pin ears . Good luck

[S Lathrop]

Volvo used the single piston ATE calipers on the rear of their cars back then. That might also be another source for the calipers.

Recently I ran into a big issue looking spindles that originally came on the late 1970's and early 1980's Dashers. They are no longer available. I used those spindles on the Zink Z16, 84, 87 and 94 Citations, both front and rear. The DB1 uses the Rabbit version of that part. I don't know if the Rabbit part is still available either. The upside is that there is a late model spindle that can easily be modified to work in place of the parts I used originally and it is available from VW..

Another issue is the IRS Beatle parts that were common to Lola and Zink FFs of the 1970's. The rear hub problem has been solved by Richard Pare at ICP but the axel shaft are unavailable. I have come up with a work around for that problem for the Zink Z10 and the same part for the Zink Z16, that uses off the shelf parts from VW or places like Rock Auto.

Are Triumph Harold parts available these days?

[John Nesbitt]

...

Are Triumph Harold parts available these days?

Herald parts are available from many suppliers in the UK. I am familiar with Canley Classics and Rimmer Bros. Both are reliable. In the US, Roadster Factory (in PA) does not list Herald parts, but uprights etc. would cross to early Spitfire

[Lastminuteracin]

Bringing this back from the dead. Im looking for the pins that retain the pads for my Anson. Stock type VW calipers. I see pins that are held in by a clip and some that are retained with what appears to be a rubber bushing on one end. The clip style seems more secure than the bushing models. Just not sure which to get. Thanks

[DanW]

Some FSV cars had ATE, others had Varga calipers.

Do these hardware kits look familiar?

https://www.partsgeek.com/catalog/19...dware_kit.html

[Lastminuteracin]

I have nothing with the car to reference from. Mine are ATE calipers and that is one of the ones I've found. Some Porsche used ATE also and they are the ones with the pins that use clips. It just seems pretty sketchy that all that seems to retain the pin is that rubber bushing on the end of the ones pictured. I'll have a closer look at my calipers tonight.
More Information for BENDIX H5575 (rockauto.com)

[DanW]

I have nothing with the car to reference from. Mine are ATE calipers and that is one of the ones I've found. Some Porsche used ATE also and they are the ones with the pins that use clips. It just seems pretty sketchy that all that seems to retain the pin is that rubber bushing on the end of the ones pictured. I'll have a closer look at my calipers tonight.
More Information for BENDIX H5575 (rockauto.com)

Search for similar:
images porsche ate caliper

[Rick Kirchner]

you can use large cotter pins for this, or tubing with cotters inserted through them.

[Lastminuteracin]

Ricks idea may be the answer. It would explain why I have none in the calipers or box of pads and parts that came with the car. Thanks I will check that out for sure.