Absolutely. Using the Runoffs as the benchmark, there are only 42 winners every year (or however many classes will be there) and the rest of us are losers. In those 42 classes, and 600 entries, there are less than a hundred realistic potential champions, so the other 500 entries are spending all that time and money for some reason.Originally Posted by RSS
Greg Rice, RICERACEPREP.com
F1600 Arrive-N-Drive for FRP and SCCA, FC SCCA also. Including Runoffs
2020 & 2022 F1600 Champion, 2020 SCCA FF Champion, 2021 SCCA FC Champion,
2016 F2000 Champion, Follow RiceRacePrep on Instagram.
The politics of regional competition has a great deal more to do with how/why things have gotten to this point than most members realize.
Peter Olivola
(polivola@gmail.com)
SEDiv may be unique in having a Division-wide championship, and only a Division-wide championship. I remember attending a SEDiv convention and SARRC awards dinner - a big deal.
As Peter points out, centrifugal forces and inter-regional sharp elbows have a lot to do with why there are not other SARRC-like championships.
And, even SARRC is splitting into a Florida SARRC and a rest-of-SEDiv SARRC. Yes, there is a unified championship as well, but the trend line is not promising.
John Nesbitt
ex-Swift DB-1
Back in post #55 I postulated that the road to the Runoffs and the Runoffs itself is not broken. With basically 600 entries this year it appears to be as successful as ever. If formula cars and sports racers were showing up in 2005 numbers it would be the largest attended Runoffs ever. What is broken is formula car entries!
Why should the club change formats to try to attract non-existent formula car entries?
I don't think its a Topeka problem, nor a regional problem. The "problem", if there is one, is that folks have quit racing formula cars. They also quit racing chariots and front engine roadsters. It could just be a natural fading out of one form of racing.
I'm calm...... but aren't we all dedicated SCCA customers ?
Every decision seems to be NOT about club racing. They aren't fixing the club level problem... They are "fixing their runoffs" (not our runoffs)...
A fellow racer considering Indy next year.
Round numbers:
Majors weekend: entry, transport, food, lodging $2000, Tires $1000 so budget $3000 per. Do 3 or 4 weekends? budget $12000
Testing, etc. - other prep $3000
So far $15k to make sure you qualify.
RT Transport LA to Indy: 4400 miles, $1 per so budget $5000
Tires for the runoffs: How many sets? 1, 3, 5? Say 3: $3000
Daily travel expenses (food hotel) for 2 weeks: $1400
Entry Fee? At track costs?
So, we're at approx. $25k? No spares, no refresh, no family and friends.....
It ads up fast..... not saying it's right, good or acceptable, just estimates....
How can it be done cheaper... please..
Not saying you're wrong, but if you're right....
Topeka made a big mistake investing capital in buying everything FE and investing in F4.......
Lets wait it out and see how FE does. I think investing in FE will be a huge boost. Dont let the numbers at the runnoffs scare peeps from FE. We routinely had more FEs at majors than is currently registered for MidO. I think there will be 20+ at Indy and continue in the high teens moving foward. FE can, and should, be the dominant open wheel class.
I race communist race cars.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling, there are rules." - Walter Sobchak
"Pretty sure?" Is that for the spouse or us?
The below is assuming you are within 250 of your events. Don't break one part all season. Have free labor. Two to three people.
This scenario assumes your truck and trailer were given to you by a rich Uncle. Who also owns a truck/towing repair shop. He also pays all the insurance.
Those seven events cost $14,000 for tires (Pro- six /weekend and test days) and entry fees.
I assume that was at least 14 overnights for two rooms? $80 per is $2,240 (The Super 8 Mansfield is $129)
Food is $100 per day at $1,400
Fuel 15 gallons per weekend at $5 $525
Towing 250 each way at 8 MPG and $2.50 $1,094
Consumable Parts per weekend $300 $2,100
Seven test days at $350 $2,450
That, as you all know is a very crazy, conservative estimate and it totals $23,809
If we are honest and throw in the truck depreciation, trailer depreciation, taxes/fees/insurance on the vehicles it adds up to a lot. If you tow more than 250 - 500 miles ON AVERAGE like we do from Colorado (Mid-Ohio is 2,600) you can see fuel expenses at $1,000 per weekend. Rooms double due to drive time.
I realize the 'average ' racer or prospective racer is somewhere in between those costs (distance). But the reality is to replicate your season for the average Joe is likely closer to $35,000 in costs almost all in. $2,500 /yr engine rebuild budget. $1,000 in crash damage, $2-$7,000/yr in depreciation costs. Your race car depreciates too! Wheels? Geez.
We are struggling to be competitive at a few premier events like the Sprints and the Runoffs. To throw in a Pro weekend was invaluable. The shift to the spec FF tire this year was a massive savings. But we delude ourselves when looking for prospective racers how incredibly expensive WE have allowed this to become. In the spirit of the success we've had with the spec tires I suggest those of us in FF look at some old school moves that would immensely bring the costs down such as the aforementioned shocks. It's literally insane that we are competing with $8,000 shocks when a set of non adjustable street shocks would suffice.
If we want to protect what we have left we need to embrace some significant change. That hurts sometimes. LaRue's idea about embracing karts is a good first step. Many more are needed. Let's compete where folks are used to spending SCCA formula car money. That's a good pond to fish in. TNiA? Not so much.
Don't get me started. But please don't ignore the real cost structure under which we all chose to compete. I find it shocking. Pun intended.
Bob Melvin
So...After reading Mr. Eakin's post above and getting thoroughly depressed....Let me throw out a few questions and then maybe offer something ....
We all complain about costs and what it takes to compete in OWR; do you think its any different with a SM or a SRF at the pointy end? Or a GT1, GT2, or fill in the blank?
Formula cars; Why have there been 30 USF-17 cars sold (and more on order) and at least 20 Crawford F4's in a year? Tatuus and Mygale combined have sold over 300 F4's around the world in two years and the count is rising. This belies that there is no money in the paddock- it simply will only be spent if there is perceived value.
At last count, IIRC, there have been 120+ FE cars built. Why are there only 7 entered in the runoffs?
The same has been asked for both FM and FC; where are the cars?
My postulation is that perhaps we are mired in old technology and we've collectively become subconsciously bored with it. The FM is from the 90's (80's?), the FE and current FC design is from about 1997 (but really more like 1990). The Zetec motor was designed in the 1980's (think when the Pinto was designed!).
We are potentially looking at the complete collapse of a number of OWR classes in the next couple of years if we don't become proactive immediately.
Here's a maybe not so radical idea: Combine FE, FC, FM into one class and set the specs as close as possible to the best each has to offer. There will be a winner and there will be losers, but everyone will be able to race their existing car in some fashion (think about the need to break eggs to make an omelet).
Make a derivative of the F4 the new FC. Set specs so that a person can go from one to the other with minimum changes to the car; shocks and brakes only? Or even that a F4 can migrate to FC easily but not the other way around? these are details.
You now have a class for a modern, CF tub car with paddle-shift, current production motor and gearbox in a tight, cost effective package that is not an Atlantic car or a FA field filler. It is backed by a PRODUCTION FACTORY with a ready supply of parts and technical advice at reasonable pricing. This is what the kids coming out of karting want, and they are the new blood the club desperately needs.
This is not the first time something like this has happened in Club racing: Look at the history of FC, especially the conditions leading up the rules revamping in 1986. History tends to repeat itself, or at least parallel itself.
ok, blast away....but I'd rather see thoughtful comment and some possible solutions rather than why it can't or won't work.
----------
In memory of Joe Stimola and Glenn Phillips
Bob:
I completely agree with your class combinations and have suggested exactly the same.
Bob
Nah, pretty sure because it isn't actually my money. I might spend $200/weekend, but my primary role is to drive the truck then stand around and look pretty.
Definitely not within 250 miles of most FRP events, but all labor is definitely free. We are an all-volunteer effort. Usually 3 of us including the driver.The below is assuming you are within 250 of your events. Don't break one part all season. Have free labor. Two to three people.
Not including fixed costs. It varies wildly from 18 wheelers to van/trailer combos that are older than I am. Most people have to have a car to drive every day. It might as well be a truck.This scenario assumes your truck and trailer were given to you by a rich Uncle. Who also owns a truck/towing repair shop. He also pays all the insurance.
Figure $1,700-$1,800/weekend for tires if you want to use 6 and don't win any. But, you can do the four declared sessions on four tires. We've done it and there are others who do it. We always buy 4 tires and then wait to see if we win any before we decide to buy 2 more. Club weekends cost less because the tires are cheaper and the sessions are shorter. I think you can realistically do it for less than $14k.Those seven events cost $14,000 for tires (Pro- six /weekend and test days) and entry fees.
Reid has had a lot of really good advice on rotating tires through to make them last and to save money. We used to do something similar when club racing on bias ply tires.
$0 for hotel rooms this year. I have no doubt that this is a substantial part of our savings.I assume that was at least 14 overnights for two rooms? $80 per is $2,240 (The Super 8 Mansfield is $129)
Wren's opinion/rant: hotel rooms for race weekends really, really suck. We stopped getting them in 2010 and I am convinced it has helped our efforts. Hotel rooms are boring. If you are at the track, then you can work on the car until late at night, then wake up the next morning and do it some more. That is what I want to do more than anything else on a race weekend and sleeping at the track lets me do more of it. I know that we are not the only competitors in the F2000 series doing this.
For us, the temptation with hotel rooms has been to go eat dinner and then head to the hotel room for the night and give up 3-4 hours that we could be working on the car. I would encourage everyone to try it at least once. Get a folding cot from Walmart and bring a pillow. Most tracks have nice bathroom/shower facilities(in fairness, Mid-Ohio's meat gazer special shower facilities are terrible).
We average $25 for lunch and closer to $30 for dinner for all 3 of us. I can tell you where to find decent pizza near most east coast race tracks. Obviously, this is a highly variable cost. Some people like to eat really well on a race weekend. I prefer to shove down some fast food and get back to work on the car. But, if someone wants to cut their budget to have more for racing, this is a place to consider. I have seen people make sandwiches/hot dogs in the paddock.Food is $100 per day at $1,400
Back in the DSR days was the best time to save money on food. I would just go to Young Racing's paddock space and make an annoying show of eating all the good food that Marsha put out while the DSR guys sat there angrily eating their one leaf of lettuce, two tic-tacs, and half a cup of water. I understand this may not have worked for everyone.
I would say that we are using around 4.5 gallons per session with an average of 6 sessions per weekend. 93 octane is $3-$4 per gallon. So, probably a little bit more than you guessed. That is a good problem to have since FRP offers so much quality track time.Fuel 15 gallons per weekend at $5 $525
These costs are going to vary a good bit for everyone. We tow a lot further at about 11.7 mpg, probably consume something in the area, and we have not had a lot of test days this year to spend money on. There are other expenses like power and other things I am forgetting.Towing 250 each way at 8 MPG and $2.50 $1,094
Consumable Parts per weekend $300 $2,100
Seven test days at $350 $2,450
My main point is that you can be competitive without all of these expenses that a lot of people think are neccesary. It applies equally to club racing and the runoffs.
I said earlier that I think that the most important thing is to improve the experience for club racers. I suspect that reducing costs is probably the number 1 way to do it. I agree with you that we should be looking for ways to do it.That, as you all know is a very crazy, conservative estimate and it totals $23,809
If we are honest and throw in the truck depreciation, trailer depreciation, taxes/fees/insurance on the vehicles it adds up to a lot. If you tow more than 250 - 500 miles ON AVERAGE like we do from Colorado (Mid-Ohio is 2,600) you can see fuel expenses at $1,000 per weekend. Rooms double due to drive time.
I realize the 'average ' racer or prospective racer is somewhere in between those costs (distance). But the reality is to replicate your season for the average Joe is likely closer to $35,000 in costs almost all in. $2,500 /yr engine rebuild budget. $1,000 in crash damage, $2-$7,000/yr in depreciation costs. Your race car depreciates too! Wheels? Geez.
We are struggling to be competitive at a few premier events like the Sprints and the Runoffs. To throw in a Pro weekend was invaluable. The shift to the spec FF tire this year was a massive savings. But we delude ourselves when looking for prospective racers how incredibly expensive WE have allowed this to become. In the spirit of the success we've had with the spec tires I suggest those of us in FF look at some old school moves that would immensely bring the costs down such as the aforementioned shocks. It's literally insane that we are competing with $8,000 shocks when a set of non adjustable street shocks would suffice.
If we want to protect what we have left we need to embrace some significant change. That hurts sometimes. LaRue's idea about embracing karts is a good first step. Many more are needed. Let's compete where folks are used to spending SCCA formula car money. That's a good pond to fish in. TNiA? Not so much.
Don't get me started. But please don't ignore the real cost structure under which we all chose to compete. I find it shocking. Pun intended.
Bob Melvin
I really think you guys have touched on a good point re: dropping the concept of qualifying for the Runoffs.
The whole concept is a lazy hold-over from the days when we actually had enough racers to have two Club Racing programs, National and Regional. Game Over, that doesn't exist any more, give it up.
Let's just have races.
If you want to go to the Runoffs, yeah, OK, maybe you gotta run 2 race weekends, or something like that.
Do you have to be good enough to participate? What the hell does that mean any more? Licensing is gone (as a distinction). Finishing position/results, outside of SM, SRF, and FV, is pretty much thrown away by now too, with such small fields etc.
So just accept the reality of the situation and simply require participation in 2 race weekends. That's it. That's all you need to go to the Runoffs. Oh, and you can't bring an IT car.
Even if I didn't need to race one weekend, to go to the Runoffs... would I? Hell yeah, 'cause I need to shake my car down, develop it, keep my skills sharp, etc. So why does it matter when/where that occurs?
Club Racing would be a lot healthier if we all raced together, instead of scattered at different tracks on different dates, like a bunch of Time Trial-ers.
As for the cost of going racing - as has already been well pointed out, that's purely self-inflicted.
I NEED an enclosed trailer.
I NEED a garage.
I NEED hotel rooms.
I NEED to eat lunch and dinner out every night.
I NEED a full day of testing.
I NEED a shop to prep my car, and support it at the track.
I NEED new tires every session.
etc. etc.
That's pure, unmitigated BS. Those are luxuries. Too bad everyone getting into club racing these days sees those as the norm, and confuses them with requirements.
What Wren is describing is old-school racing. Take a group of intelligent, experienced, passionate, dedicated, and competitive people and put them in a success-orientated environment free of ego, and they can move mountains ..... or win championships. With Brandon and Wren, you can add "highly" to each of those adjectives.
That is what is disappearing from club racing, particularly formula car racing. I try to create that situation for my customers, but it is very difficult to do, and at significant cost. In a world where people are too busy playing with their phones to do basic life tasks, where can we get people to spend 100s of hours prepping their race car for one event?
I don't have any answer to that question unfortunately.
Greg Rice, RICERACEPREP.com
F1600 Arrive-N-Drive for FRP and SCCA, FC SCCA also. Including Runoffs
2020 & 2022 F1600 Champion, 2020 SCCA FF Champion, 2021 SCCA FC Champion,
2016 F2000 Champion, Follow RiceRacePrep on Instagram.
Stating the obvious, but the title of this thread is "Runoffs Participation?" as in, "Where are all the formula cars on the 2016 Runoffs entry list?" THAT is why multiple suggestions have been made regarding "fixing their runoffs".
As with most threads it has branched multiple times into other topics, and suggestions have been made to increase participation (particularly in open-wheeled cars) at non-Runoffs events as well:
. partnering with karting organizations
. establishing nationally-recognized divisional championships
. reducing the number of classes
. organizing formula-car only events/series
. reducing expenses
. adjusting expectations regarding expenses
. simplifying Runoffs qualification
. etc.
If we were all in one room I'd probably stand up and yell, "Let's stay focused people!", but such are the vagaries of an internet discussion. While our BoD members DO get in the same room five to six times a year they have other issues to deal with besides Club Racing (and specifically open-wheel participation), but make sure YOUR director knows how you feel about things...
Butch Kummer
2006, 2007, 2010 SARRC GTA Champion
Looks like it is simply Open Wheel racing is the issue with low car counts. Sounds like other classes have enough entrants. We can all blame SCCA but need to take on some of the blame ourselves as car owners who do not run them anymore. I realize there is more to it then that but I think we need to look in the mirror a little.
Steve Bamford
Butch for president.
I race communist race cars.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling, there are rules." - Walter Sobchak
"Butch for president."
I've never had the pleasure of meeting Butch, but having read many comments over the years on Apex, I'd second that.
"Stating the obvious, but the title of this thread is "Runoffs Participation?" as in, "Where are all the formula cars on the 2016 Runoffs entry list?" THAT is why multiple suggestions have been made regarding "fixing their runoffs"."
As the original poster, yes, that is what I meant. I was expecting that a track like MO with reasonable proximity to the east coast formula car population would have been a large draw. I understand that the formula car participation is down to some degree in majors/regionals and perhaps that is the same problem with the runoffs. Perhaps things changed during my long "vacation" away from club racing. I grew up and raced in a time when it was very difficult to qualify for the runoffs as a kid building/maintaining/crewing his own car and just getting to the runoffs was a big goal. So, I'm surprised. Maybe I shouldn't be. Things have changed. And I'm not on the track or going either so I'm a part of the problem as well. Hope to get back on the track next year. If not, then I am going to get involved at some other level.
I'm still surprised at the low turnout.
I heard form a GT1 stalwart that he was not going because of the entry fee and having to pay a silly price for grass paddock.
Maybe that has kept some formula guys away. But does not explain how it is not keeping the other classes away.
Some great ideas have been floated here, but I would not wish the job of president on my worst enemy, particularly Butch, since he is a pretty darn decent guy.
If we want to change things we need to change the BOD.
All the president is supposed to do is manage the day to day running of the club and carry out the direction of the BOD.
Butch for BOD.
Changing the BOD and/or President does not answer the basic question (and subject of this thread): Why are open wheel entries down at the Runoffs, while other categories' entries are generally healthy?
I do not think that the answer lies with the BOD or in Topeka.
The answer is closer to home.
John Nesbitt
ex-Swift DB-1
Remember when the Indianapolis 500 was the pinnacle, and NASCAR was a regional series without much of a national following? When getting a ride in an Indycar at the Brickyard was beyond most stock car drivers' wildest dreams? Things have changed since those days. We frequently see talented people leaving open wheel cars behind and heading off to NASCAR instead. Even people who start off in karts end up in stock cars. Single seaters are no longer considered the top of the heap by many young drivers, and club racing is now feeling the effects of this trend.
I meant actual president. Who else are we going to vote for?
I race communist race cars.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling, there are rules." - Walter Sobchak
I haven't been around a long time here so I don't have the benefit of history. The biggest field I have run with is 15 cars in the same class...
But, listening to what people have bee saying in my class (FC) is:
- It all went south with allowing the Zetec. Pintos were no longer competitive.
(repeat for Kent/Honda in FF)
- Zetec (Honda) drove the cost up to be competitive.
- Since they couldn't be competitive they parked. If they didn't park it they started running with Vintage clubs.
- Pintos/Kents disappeared so the fields shrank. Some drivers just couldn't afford to upgrade.
- Repeated we hear we need to organized at the region level. Get the cars back.
Well, in a way these classes HAVE been reorganized at the Regional level. There are discussions in reorganizing and restotring divisional groups, etc.
So, what if this has become enough for drivers? They race in their "multi-regional" championships (organized outside of SCCA). Cut the cost of hauling across country and enjoy racing in their "club". This is precisely what NWFC and PacificF2000 have done. Some 25+ active drivers and I don't think 1 is going to the runoffs.
Unlike tin-top classes where the car vary substantially and are constantly being re-equalized, OW classes are much closer to start and changes/corrections are infrequent.
That's why this other organizations add their own rules to the GRC....
Food for thought.
I have seen a few comments about making the runoffs an EVENT again, something that makes it an event you work all year for. Something that I think would help is to get the runoffs back on TV again. I'm sure the club spends a good chunk of money to do the live broadcast of all the races online. I understand Mazda probably covers a portion of that, but it still takes money to do.
What effort is being made to get the runoffs broadcast in front of the unwashed masses. We in the know go looking for the broadcast, but we are a captive audience. In this day and age of websites dedicated to anything and everything car related, and several sports and car related TV channels, what is the club doing to advertise it's Superbowl, it's Daytona 500, its Olympics to anyone other than it's own members?
Here's a thought. The footage, the broadcast already exists. the money is already spent. Give it away to any interested tv channel. Here is 24 hours of pre-produced race coverage that you can play at any time you want. In December or January when people are starved for racing, here is a months worth of races that you can show your viewers. The more eyeballs on the races, the more people we have the chance to turn into club racers.
Maybe its a hair brained idea, but it was something I was thinking about.
Ken Hoovler
FV should be and is the largest (does that mean dominant class?) and the numbers SHOULD drop as you get further up the food chain.
I will bet many people in FV do the Runoffs for the experience (as not all 40 have a chance of winning - although they can all dream).
I while I agree with Bob Wright's claim that we have too many classes, I will disagree slightly that we need the latest and greatest technology in ALL classes. We need inexpensive classes like FV and FF class as fillers and beginner's classes.
Talking about F4, let's look at a page from a different series:
"The Legends Cars continue to be produced by US Legend Cars, Inc. in Harrisburg, North Carolina. Currently they are the largest mass producer of racecars in the world. Presently, there are more than 5,500 cars manufactured by USLCI in existence. (emphasis mine)" That is from their web site.
If F4 is such a great class, there should be 4 division series with 30+ drivers in them, competing for a shot at the "National Championship". That still is only 120 drivers. If there are thousands of kart drivers in all the different forms, including dirt, indoor, endurance, besides the road racing classes, is 120 unrealistic?
Now let's look at how many Miatas have been made = from a quick look on the net, from 1990 to 2006, in North America we have about 372K +
Let's look at WV Beetle production - " By 1973, total production was over 16 million" Wikipedia.
But what about FF? - where is the tie to a production car? (besides the Capri and Pinto...)
FF only existed and grew because racers wanted a faster car than FV (where most started). That is what people are missing. Without an entry level (forget FE) class, the house of cards is upside down. FE COULD have been the dominant class if it was a no wing, mass produced car to replace FV, FF and F440/500/5. But that would have ticked some people off. In reality - FE should have been a spec DESIGN, which any manufacturer could build.
If you stick classes in the middle, like FM and FE, (and FB and F600) without building and supporting the base, all you do is dilute the middle. (FC was an outgrowth of FF but then badly managed after it became successful)
So if you want to get formula car numbers up at the Runoffs, you have to start at the bottom. FV is okay for now, but we are putting a lot of effort in at the regional level to keep it going. If it fails, then the tin tops will win.
Chris Z
Just back from Palmer
FV Citation #23
PS When my brain clears - I will start another thread on why the Majors Program is a failure, but with some good ideas.
I love, and hate, Wren's post (#92). I love it because I reminded me how much fun it is staying at the track, tinkering with the car until late, talking to people who also stay, and asking your buddy if he thinks the turkey sandwich you made the Thursday before you left for the track smells funky.
I hate it because it reminded me how much I loved, and miss all of it. One of my best memories is staying up until 1:30a on a warm-ish Thursday night at the Runoffs, swapping out an LD200 with Paul Williams.
You absolutely can save a lot of money over high dollar efforts, and have just as much success. You're either going to put in a lot more work, or more money. The problem I see is that the person who is going to buy a beater tow vehicle, a 20 year old trailer, eat questionable turkey sandwiches, and do all the things one does to save the cash to go racing is not going to be able to afford an open wheel car at the prices they are at for SCCA. They will go run a local organization with an older car (like Greg Rice's FV deal, or Keith Averill's GLC). IMHO, SCCA has priced it self well above the market they think they are targeting. They are targeting Average Joe Racer, but the costs are so that only Fancy Pants Phillip can afford it.
Last edited by reidhazelton; 09.12.16 at 12:21 AM.
killer ken is right
The runoffs need to be on TV. I'm not sure on channel but I can watch national races from Australia but not from the us. That's a shame.
That's not really going to change car counts, at least not IMO. All types of advertising help but there are many other issues keeping people at home rather then just not having TV coverage. I'm also noticing the new generation is not dependent on TV like the previous, they stream whatever they want whenever they want. TV is not going to reach your audience you wish of new racers.
Thinking of getting kart kids to move open wheel is also a tough sell...Dad or Mom need to continue to pay into a new program they don't totally understand like karting. They likely started karting at some local small track that cost them next to nothing to a few Sunday events then moved on from there to more complex racing but had knowledge of it. Now make the jump to Formula cars is another story as there is no defined path, as of yet. Also get Mom to agree to let their kid into open wheel or have her have an option for closed wheel, which one do you think she will pick? When does Mom & Dad stop paying for racing as well?
You need more people like Wren & Brandon, however I think they are one offs & not likely to be replicated.
Last edited by Steve Bamford; 09.12.16 at 9:43 AM.
Steve Bamford
Here is just one driver's experience with Majors and 2016 Runoffs.I really think you guys have touched on a good point re: dropping the concept of qualifying for the Runoffs.
The whole concept is a lazy hold-over from the days when we actually had enough racers to have two Club Racing programs, National and Regional. Game Over, that doesn't exist any more, give it up.
Let's just have races.
If you want to go to the Runoffs, yeah, OK, maybe you gotta run 2 race weekends, or something like that.
Do you have to be good enough to participate? What the hell does that mean any more? Licensing is gone (as a distinction). Finishing position/results, outside of SM, SRF, and FV, is pretty much thrown away by now too, with such small fields etc.
So just accept the reality of the situation and simply require participation in 2 race weekends. That's it. That's all you need to go to the Runoffs. Oh, and you can't bring an IT car.
Even if I didn't need to race one weekend, to go to the Runoffs... would I? Hell yeah, 'cause I need to shake my car down, develop it, keep my skills sharp, etc. So why does it matter when/where that occurs?
Club Racing would be a lot healthier if we all raced together, instead of scattered at different tracks on different dates, like a bunch of Time Trial-ers.
As for the cost of going racing - as has already been well pointed out, that's purely self-inflicted.
I NEED an enclosed trailer.
I NEED a garage.
I NEED hotel rooms.
I NEED to eat lunch and dinner out every night.
I NEED a full day of testing.
I NEED a shop to prep my car, and support it at the track.
I NEED new tires every session.
etc. etc.
That's pure, unmitigated BS. Those are luxuries. Too bad everyone getting into club racing these days sees those as the norm, and confuses them with requirements.
I spent a lot of time and money to enter three Majors this year (Sebring/Road Atlanta/Mid-Ohio). Between an engine that just would not start at Road Atlanta and getting taken out at the start at Mid-Ohio, that is two races with zero points. As a result, I did not qualify for the Runoffs. Given that it's at Mid-Ohio, my personal favorite track, I would have seriously considered entering the Runoffs.
Given the huge time and expense commitment the Runoffs requires, I could have entered more Majors to qualify OR raced the Runoffs but not both. As a result I did neither, my car will stay home in the garage this month and I'll go run ARRC instead.
Kevin
Crossle 35F
Van Diemen RF02
It's the costs guys
Greg
I haven't yet read down through all these exceedingly interesting posts but I can't help jumping in after reading your first post - with a couple of additional words thrown in:
"Club racing has priced itself out of touch with the "common Joe" and car counts have crashed in general because of that. The few "common Joes" that were trying to do it, have given up, just because.....OF THE COST ESCALATION......they got worn out, or got too old. That so many are still willing to do it, is more of a mystery to me, than why so few."
You are ABSOLUTELY SPOT-ON !!
John M.
Nothing new - been saying that for a couple decades. Racers are their own worst enemies when it comes to keep costs in check
Those who say it's no longer an event I think that's a matter of perspective. For us in FV it may be easier to get to the runoffs than years ago but just as many cars are showing up. If we only had 6 to 10 cars showing up then it would just feel like any other weekend and wouldn't be an event to me.
I think in FF and FC the cost to run up front has become too great. Back decades ago you'd have guys moving from FV to a faster class but I think that's becoming more rare because the price gap between FF/FC and FV has widened so much. You can buy a top national FV for 12-16k, correct me if I'm wrong but it would cost you 3 to 4 times that for a top national FF. Thats just factoring in cost without the complexity of running a FF or FC.
The sad reality is there needs to be class restructuring and the elimination of some national classes for the greater good of open wheel. There are too many classes and everything has gotten diluted. Would you rather run with 30-40 Spec Miatas every weekend or run with 5 to 10 cars in your class and have to maintain the car much more. This is what potential racers are asking themselves.
There needs to be a class above FV that is faster, sexier and generally easy to maintain at a reasonable price point.
Hey Brian,
Good Luck at your first runoffs!
Barry
Thanks Barry! I'm very excited, only one day of work stands in my way at this point!
Looks like I'm the lone Citation this year, I'll try not to make us look bad
Brian,
One of the better memories I have is my first, and only, runoffs back in age of the dinosaurs ('78).
I was about your age. It was a week that I learned a lot. In those days we did not have test days prior to races, so all we had were a couple qualifying sessions and practice and the race on Sunday. Having a session every day prior to the race allowed me to make minor adjustments and test the next day. By the last qualifier I had managed to find the missing second. Just getting on the track each day was so much fun. Even though I had no chance to be up at the front, the challenge of trying to get to the next group was great and a real incentive.
For many years I could recall each lap of the race. I hope you have as much fun as I did, and have many more.
Barry
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