Just curious - Why is the participation so low this year for the formula classes?
FV has 40, but no other class >20. several, 3-4 are <10
Even FV seems low.
runoffs participation?
Just curious - Why is the participation so low this year for the formula classes?
FV has 40, but no other class >20. several, 3-4 are <10
Even FV seems low.
My 10cents/ cost, time, benefit fwiw
I think the broader question is why formula car participation is so low across the country. There have been a couple of very long threads discussing this without any real solution.
http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74628
There were some very good observations then, as often happens, the thread slowly died off.
The cars are out there, they're just not being raced. There are some really good cars for sale at good prices, but they're not being bought.
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In memory of Joe Stimola and Glenn Phillips
I think part of it for the Runoffs specifically this year is because of location. Mid Ohio is a wonderful facility and one of my favorites but to many people, Daytona was a big deal and certainly Indy in 2017 is a big deal. I can see why people would scale back this year in light of '15 and '17.
Warning: Reid says it's too expensive, again. That horse is so well tenderized at this point it will melt in your mouth.
The Daytona/Indy reason is a big one. Which is an indicator the costs are unsustainable. If people have to take a year off in order to afford the year after, that isn't a good business model for SCCA.
As for the cars for sale, I did a little summary a month ago to see what class had a lower cost of entry for used cars. These are listed prices, not the sold price (if they sold, most haven't), but here is what I found.
- FF/Honda - Average $49,000.
- FF/Ford - Average $23,000
- FC/Zetec - Average $43,000
- FB - Average $41,000.
- P1/P2 - Average $40,000
Call me crazy, but $40k+ for a used car is not going to make SCCA boom with entries. At $23k, I bet there would be a whole lot more entries is those cars were competitive.
If true, that people would rather race at glorified "Roavals" than the best and most challenging real road circuit on the continent, that is a sad reflection on our current active racer crowd.
Most people I know would rather race at Mid-Ohio. I guess we're just poor and old.
We can argue about whether the Glen or Road Atlanta or Road America are better than Mid-Ohio ..... but Daytona or Indy ...... come on.
Greg Rice, RICERACEPREP.com
F1600 Arrive-N-Drive for FRP and SCCA, FC SCCA also. Including Runoffs
2020 & 2022 F1600 Champion, 2020 SCCA FF Champion, 2021 SCCA FC Champion,
2016 F2000 Champion, Follow RiceRacePrep on Instagram.
I guess my decision to quit racing my FF after, 2012, may have been a good decision on my part!
Seriously tho, I am alive and doing GREAT! My recovery has surpassed all of my doctors expectations, please, don't let my freak crash continue to scare everybody away! Geezz, my crash was over 4 years ago......time to move on guys haha!I mean, if I promised to attend just as a spectator, than would you all decide to attend? I know my freak crash has nothing to do with the numbers being down. I am just trying to have some fun!
My dream was to always race in the Runoffs someday, no matter if I finished last. I grew up watching the Runoffs last 7 years at Road Atlanta, than the first 2 years at Mid Ohio, as my biggest dream was to just to be on the other side of the fence for once. I guess that's 1 dream that will have to remain a dream. Not complaining, as I was just blessed to even race, period!!
Brian #31 FF......gone but not dead!
Brian, I love your spirit and determination. You will race again.Originally Posted by Brian331
I guess my decision to quit racing my FF after, 2012, may have been a good decision on my part!
Seriously tho, I am alive and doing GREAT! My recovery has surpassed all of my doctors expectations, please, don't let my freak crash continue to scare everybody away! Geezz, my crash was over 4 years ago......time to move on guys haha!
My dream was to always race in the Runoffs someday, no matter if I finished last. I grew up watching the Runoffs last 7 years at Road Atlanta, than the first 2 years at Mid Ohio, as my biggest dream was to just to be on the other side of the fence for once. I guess that's 1 dream that will have to remain a dream. Not complaining, as I was just blessed to even race, period!!
Brian #31 FF......gone but not dead!
"Most people I know would rather race at Mid-Ohio."
I thought it would be a big draw, so I'm really surprised at the car count.
Club Racing has just become too inexpensive. It's so cheap it has no "meaning" in today's society.
Bump up the price to at Least $15,000 to $20,000 per weekend and it will grow.
I attended the Amelia Island Concours, and watched a lot of last month's Pebble Beach party. Obvious to me club racing is too cheap to be attractive to large numbers.
As an aside question...
Anyone going to the runoffs and heading south (FL Panhandle or close) afterwards? Would you be able to "schlep" some parts coming across the border and bring them south?
PM here - or chainplates AT hotmail DOT com. Not looking for door delivery we could meet within a few hundred miles of FWB maybe? Please let me know soonest.
Cheers - Jim
When I used to fly Phantoms, I was called an AVIATOR.
Now I race cars. So, am I now called a PAVIATOR?
I know frogs have sticky tongues - yours go firmly stuck in your cheek.
The Amelia Island crowd and the Club Racing crowd march to to very different drummers. One wants to spend money and look at the results of it. The other spends money to go fast and challenge each other. Those in Club Racing have an adventuresome spirit, those at Amelia Island would be horrified if the chrome turned blue.
Surprised no one has mentioned yet the TERRIBLE schedule at the runoffs for ALL classes that might be keeping people away. It's certainly keeping me away this year. I really don't want to drive out there for one 15 min session per day (10 laps maybe, if there are no yellows/reds) then 2 full days off before an afternoon race. Nor can I really afford to take all those days off. I'll never understand why they can't split the runoffs into groups so it's a 3 or 4 day event per class with more track time. The only reason I'll run next year is because I live 15 min from the speedway. It will probably be the last one I make until the schedule changes.
Sorry, but gotta throw in the correction here, can't lump P1 and P2 together... apples and oranges, worse than trying to lump together FC and CFC. P1's seem to start at around 30-35k... P2s by contrast are averaging around $20-25k.
Of course, this seems to maybe be reflected in the Runoffs entries for those classes.
For me and perhaps many others... Runoffs at Mid-O isn't as "special" as other locations, definitely... though I'd've been happy to make it there this year, Indy next year will definitely be more exciting to make...
Of course it seems like the PITA factor of the logistics for Mid-O, even worse than a normal club race, helps justify the decision to stay away. Every day a new horror story, and the event hasn't even started. Seems like I'd have to trailer my car to the grid, at this point, if I tried to go...
Relative to the cost of living, I don't think the Runoffs are any more expensive or any more of a PITA than they have been for 25 years. Club racing has priced itself out of touch with the "common Joe" and car counts have crashed in general because of that. The few "common Joes" that were trying to do it, have given up, just because they got worn out, or got too old. That so many are still willing to do it, is more of a mystery to me, than why so few.
SCCA needs major reform from top to bottom, and the Runoffs are just reflective of that need.
Greg Rice, RICERACEPREP.com
F1600 Arrive-N-Drive for FRP and SCCA, FC SCCA also. Including Runoffs
2020 & 2022 F1600 Champion, 2020 SCCA FF Champion, 2021 SCCA FC Champion,
2016 F2000 Champion, Follow RiceRacePrep on Instagram.
I'm telling you folks, if you want more participation raise the cost a LOT. Get Beyonce to sing the national anthem. Have Taylor wave the green flag. Kim needs to do a stroll through the paddock and then down the red carpet to the tower.
Tom Brady isn't doing anything that weekend. Set up an i Store in the infield at Madness. Put on a craft beer celebration outside the Carosel. You need more helipads for commuters from Columbus and Cleveland airports.
I'm thinking my earlier estimate of $15,000 entry might be too low.
Look at the F1 example for guidance.
It needs to be an "event".
"Relative to the cost of living, I don't think the Runoffs are any more expensive or any more of a PITA than they have been for 25 years."
During the years I spectated when they were at Road Atlanta in the 70's, and in '78 when I participated, it was the same week long event it is now. IIRC, there was no or only a small entry fee, so that is different. I think it may have been financed by the "Trans AM" trademark if my memory serves correctly...
I did a comparison of my paltry budget / costs from those days Vs what it was costing me in my so far only year back (2014) and it was no more expensive (FV) than before. Adjusting for inflation of course. But I'm a cheapo, so it may not compare well.
I'm just surprised. I thought MO would be a location and venue that would draw a lot of participants. A lot closer to huge numbers of cars than the last two tracks.
I think things began to change in the 80s as technology became affordable ..... and racing became more expensive. The common racers got tachtales, then data systems, then timers, etc. At the same time, gas shocks became adjustable, which became Penskes, which became 4-way Ohlins, etc. More tire companies got involved. More people had prep shops prepping their cars. All this meant that testing became necessary That meant arriving Friday instead of travelling on the weekend, and arriving for Monday morning. A week on the road became two, etc.
It was certainly this way by the end of the Atlanta years and early Mid-Ohio years. SCCA briefly tried to reduce it ..... remember when it went to Topeka and it was going to be a Runoffs-only configuration with no testing. SCCA caved on that decision and it was as bad as ever but in a place no one wanted to be. Rotating it around drives up costs again, as the regulars need to do extra testing for the new track. Returning to the same track means your previous testing investment (from past years) is relevant. It all snowballed. Not sure it is any worse now than recent years, but it is unsustainable.
I don't have a solution other to blow it up and start with a new model, as we should do with SCCA as a whole.
Greg Rice, RICERACEPREP.com
F1600 Arrive-N-Drive for FRP and SCCA, FC SCCA also. Including Runoffs
2020 & 2022 F1600 Champion, 2020 SCCA FF Champion, 2021 SCCA FC Champion,
2016 F2000 Champion, Follow RiceRacePrep on Instagram.
"I think things began to change in the 80s as technology became affordable ..... and racing became more expensive. The common racers got tachtales, then data systems, then timers, etc. At the same time, gas shocks became adjustable, which became Penskes, which became 4-way Ohlins, etc. More tire companies got involved. More people had prep shops prepping their cars. All this meant that testing became necessary That meant arriving Friday instead of travelling on the weekend, and arriving for Monday morning. A week on the road became two, etc."
I'm probably not considering all that in my own calculus.
I don't recall any "test days" back in the 70's for example. For any race, not just runoffs.
My cost in '78: entry fee, zero or close to it; gas for trip to the track 2 hours away, not much; avgas for the car, not much; one set of tires, used for everything else; camped; ate no more than normal. So, pretty low budget and not comparable to the norm. Oh, a pro engine rebuild, that was my big cost.
But, the cost for MO is not more than the last two events for participants. And an iconic track, IMO. Wish I were going.
it was mentioned above, and I will repeat it...
they need to break the event up into 2 sections. if you race all year, you most likely cannot afford yet another week+ off of work just to attend for a 15min session each day. split it & run it like 2 Majors back to back.
also, WHY does it need to cost so much to enter? What are you getting extra for that price anymore? track rental fees are the same, yet a Regional is way less & there will be more cars at the Runoffs event.
I soooo want to take a shot at the Runoffs at some point, but all I hear are insane numbers that it takes to do them right. I grew up watching the Runoffs & a lot of the guys I now race against on TV. there is no way I can run a "proper" season & the Runoffs without taking the next year off to recover financially.
~Matt Clark| RTJ-02 FV #92 | My YouTube Onboard Videos (helmet cam)
Who wants to give up a week of their time and only get two hours of track time? Why is it fun to sit around all week waiting to race? I bailed on the Runoffs after the Mid Ohio Major because 1) it wasn't any fun 2) the track time was minimal 3) I had to sacrifice 3 days to not have fun.......so why even bother signing up for the Runoffs. Oh, and the competition in the following two events, combined,was a total of 3 FCs. So, even the remaining in division events would have been lackluster.
Track Time
Post is probably out of place here but---two weeks ago we had an event at Gateway. Maybe 35 cars showed up ( 1 FA, 1 FE, 3 F500). If you had an ITA/SM/?? Miata that could also be raced as a GTL or STL you could have had two race groups in three full separate race events for a total of 132 glorious roval laps; generally with someone else to actually race with. If you like driving and track time, this is the type of event to participate in. If you want glory, then go to the runoffs.
M
"Who wants to give up a week of their time and only get two hours of track time? Why is it fun to sit around all week waiting to race?"
The first runoffs I attended was 1970, the first at Road Atlanta. I was there for about half the week. Harry Ingle in the Zink factory car won the FV race. They were busy every single minute of the day. Of course, Harry was also in FSV and finished 2nd.
In 71, John Finger and Harry were the Zink factory drivers in FSV. I was there all week and watched all the furious activity in the Zink "tent". There was not a minute to spare.
In the following years I watched lots of teams and independents spend a lot of time working - tuning, adjusting, repairing, etc. Not a lot of spare time.
Since it is a National Championship, I'm not sure why it should be expected to be similar to a normal race weekend. Maybe it can be done that way. Granted, a week event for normal working people is a stretch, but if you are truly racing for a championship, I don't think it is. In the 70's I had a lot of friends involved either as drivers or mechanics. They were all busy all week. I know in '78 I was busy most of the day with my miniscule effort.
In any event, it has always been a week event and had better participation in the past. Maybe it is just money/time. But why is MO so low, given the last couple years? FF had 25 last year, 26 the year before. FV is up over the last two years from about 32, but I attributed those years as being low due to the distance (cali) and Daytona (FV on a loooong straight). 3 years back FV was at 48, so about 20% lower this year. It seems all the Formula classes are way down.
I would love to and was formulating plans to this year, when work stepped in and shot everything down.
Some comments:
1 The Runoffs do not carry the same importance that they did 30 years ago. No Autoweek, Car & Driver, Formula etc. No Cannon, British Leyland, Champion full page ads in magazines. no connection between the FF champ and Atlantic .... The veterans amoung us remember.
2. We have gotten soft - not enough track time? Schedule not friendly? Try telling that to a gymnast or swimmer trying for a national championship. Are we amateur racers or just hobbiests. Again, maybe reason #1 above affects that.
3. Life- as more spouses work (good thing - not complaining) kids involved in more activities, work demanding more of our time (want to throw cell phone and laptop in woods). We start to compartmentalize our enjoyment. The only time I get to enjoy a race on tv now is to multitask - and that is either working or sleeping...... I will bet in the past, more racers were self-employed or had a very supporting boss.
The fact that FV still has a big field probably is a sign. In other classes, the car has become too expensive. In FV, spec Miata and maybe SRF the car costs in a small way offset the other climbing expenses. If FV gets to 25 cars, then the Runoffs will be on life support.
Chris Z
And then you realize that the Gen3 cars in SRF are about 40K and the majority of the SM were between 30-40K builds and your hypothesis no longer works.
Don't forget the GT classes and even the T classes....let's start with a new Camaro/Corvette/whateveritisitdoesn'tmatterbecauseit'snew and then strip it and build it into a racecar.....not cheap.
Formula cars are cheap and easy to work on compared to many racecars at SCCA events.
I was refering to open wheel car counts as that was all my list consists of. This is apexspeed.
Those classes are strong, and the new car costs are half of what others are. Seems to validate the hypothesis.
Have you seen the cost of a TA2 car? $70k ready to go. Thats just under the cost of a new FF.
Actually yes and it is 100K, I looked at them yesterday. A USED TA2 can be found around 70K and a used FF in the (according to your numbers) 50K range.
Agree with what you're saying. Does anyone know the average age of the FV drivers at the Runoffs? Is any young blood getting into FV ?
Miata and SRF seem to be 35-55 range, and all the FV drivers I see "have a lot of experience."
Runoffs
FV
I think the Abbott brothers are in still in their 20's.
I don't think anyone will argue that what FF and FV have become are obscene caricature's of what the initial pioneers of the classes envisioned, but they are what we have, and still provide awesome racing, just not for the masses that they could, or should be. Unfortunately, the proverbial horse is out of the proverbial barn, and there is no going back.
This is the time where people start posting their visions of modern starter formula cars. Well, we don't have 5 years to talk about it, 5 years to build one, and 5 years to bring it to production, before spending a decade getting it through the SCCA process. If someone wants to build one, find an investor with a couple million dollars and crank out a few hundred. Until then, lets manage what we have. We already merge classes into run groups, so merging classes into other classes accomplishes nothing other than pissing off people.
We need to get some strong people into leadership roles at SCCA and have them make some tough decisions. If we cannot do that, lets start another club, or take our business to other providers. This will mean some of us get left out and move on to other groups. If most of us are better off and recreational racing in the USA is better as a whole, then that is good, and certainly better than where SCCA is heading.
Last edited by problemchild; 09.07.16 at 3:39 PM.
Greg Rice, RICERACEPREP.com
F1600 Arrive-N-Drive for FRP and SCCA, FC SCCA also. Including Runoffs
2020 & 2022 F1600 Champion, 2020 SCCA FF Champion, 2021 SCCA FC Champion,
2016 F2000 Champion, Follow RiceRacePrep on Instagram.
My son is 24 and will be attending in a Citation FV!
Sadly, NO!
It isn't that I don't want to race anymore, or the fact my great old job laid me off on 12/24/12 of all days as an early Christmas present, I honestly can't given the extent of my, TBI! Not even a month ago, my buddy who is driving my old car that I gave him, asked me to check his brakes for the noises it was making. I kept trying to get the breaks to make some noises by basically locking up the brakes, but I could never hear any noise. I kept trying to do that up to 60mph for the noise, but there was still nothing! I ended up bring the car back to my friend telling him that they were working fine.
While the brakes may have been fine, all that quick stopping to zero miles an hour played havoc on my brain! I had to deal with these terrible sensations in my head that even affected my balance for the rest of the day. I ended up going back to see my neurologist to tell him about them, while he wasn't surprised in the least, he told me it was because I did to much irreparable damage to my frontal lobe of my brain.
When I do a few laps in a Skippy car at, LRP next year, it will be at VERY slow speeds!
Again, having just said all of that, I have zero....none....no regrets whatsoever about my injuries. It could/should be much worse. At least I was able to fulfill my lifelong dreams of racing, not in every aspect, but at least I got a chance to race!
Brian #31 FF (has been haha)
This will be my last post on this thread, as it wasn't my intention to get off the low Run-offs numbers. Let the cost rants continue haha!
I think the biggest added expenses since the good old days are the tow vehicles and trailers. I was very proud of my pickup truck and custom open trailer 25 years ago. Now they are nothing compared to the climate controlled trailers, motorhomes, etc. Tow rigs seem to be a separate competition that just takes resources away from actually racing.
Was planning on it.. But..
I was planning on going to Mid O this year.
Until the day after the NOLA Majors weekend. My Husband and I found out we were pregnant.
So yeah.. Until November I'm out of the racing business.
You guys have fun!
Meg Sauce-Hutton
SowDiv FF10
An acceptable excuse! Congrats!
there are actually quite a few younger FV drivers here in the NorthEast. however, due to the reasons I listed above, we are either only running Regionals or in the Challenge Cup.
how many young people have jobs that pay that well or have enough vacation time to do a National season? not many. and that fact will go across all classes, not just FV.
~Matt Clark
The Frog is right again.
The Runoffs needs to be an EVENT.
It used to be an EVENT and there were people trying desperately to qualify For several years I was one of them. When I finally did make it I did not care that I was last on a grid of 15 FC's but I was at the Runoffs.. Used to be that if you said "I'm going to Atlanta" EVERY SINGLE club racer knew exactly what you meant and you went up a notch on their respect level.
Moving the Runoffs all over the country is not conducive to having an EVENT. You need to build traditions and history.
The Indy 500 was an EVENT until TG made it "just another race" and things have largely gone downhill since 1996. ( I know that this will get me flamed)
I agree too - it needs to become an EVENT again.
I'm trying hard to get my car there, because I've convinced myself, my wife, and my crew (somehow) that it's still an event.
But there's precious few indicators of that with today's event. Doesn't make it any easier to sell to sponsors, either, to justify them putting forth even bigger expenditures for "just one race"...
Getting more money out of Mazda doesn't fix this...
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