Can I rent, and if so how much?

[Hooked1stDay]

Hey all,
I have been looking at getting my license for a few years now, and am finally ready to pull the trigger. But I don't have the cash to set aside to buy a car/spares/trailer right now, so I am looking to rent if that is possible.

I am planning on going to get my license up at Canadian Tire Motorsports Park through the Bridgestone Racing Academy (www.race2000.com) either in October of this year, or early next year. If anyone has any experience with them and can let me know if they are a good outfit, I would appreciate it. I can drive there in a few hours, and with the exchange rate right now from CDN to USD it is like 25% off!

I have no experience racing, and I don't expect to jump in a car and be fast right out of the gate. I have done a couple of Skip Barber 2 day schools in cars, and have had some fun cars for the street (mustangs, corvettes, M3).

So from my extremely limited knowledge, I am looking at a couple of different classes:
FF - Understand there is less of a learning curve (no wings), and cheapest to run of the three.
FE - Mostly spec but gets into wings, mid price.
FB - Higher price, but the option to go to paddle shifters and with the sound of engine being as close to a F1 as I am ever going to get this would be my top choice I think.

I am thinking the best thing I could do is rent each of them for a lapping day, or race weekend, and try them each out before I made my decision and purchased one (probably not for a year or two). Does anyone rent those on the east coast? If so, what should I expect to pay for each?

Without having driven any of them, I am leaning towards the FB. Understanding I am going to be slow in the beginning, is there any downside of jumping straight into FB so I get used to my car as I advance, or is it generally recommended to start in a slower class and work up?

Sorry for the long post, thank you all in advance.
-Eric

[Bob Wright]

Ummm. There are a lot of threads on this site about how to get started.

For the record, a FB is NOT a starter car.

FF is one of the best cars to learn how to drive and learn race craft. Many of the great racers in the world cut their teeth in a FF and it can be done very inexpensively.

I think your idea of renting a car is the right way to go after attending a school. Look at the prep shops listed on www.F1600series.com and call a couple. They can help you through the process and generally give you a good experience.

[cdb123trader]

Eric,
In June I went to the Bridgestone Academy three day advance to racing class. Had a real blast it is a great school. Danica Patrickand James Hitchcliff are famous graduates. Best choice I think. FE cars are run there with thinner tires.

Your question about the class and which one is best. There are only three that make sense to me. FF, FC and FM. Depending on where you live each is a good place to start. Since you are in the NE probably FC and FF are good choices. These classes are pure classes with many cars and good parts availability. I live in Michigan and the FC group has nearly 20 running in a league here. Supported by local race shop Averill Racing Stuff. There is a guy here Cade Wilson renting out his FC. The FC class is a great place I'm planning on buying a car this winter. The FM Formula Mazda is also a good car and has many cars for sale with good service Texas Raceway. Problem for you and I are the cars aren't that popular and not any strong race leagues as they are popular in the West Coast, Texas and CA for racing. No FM league racing I can find in Michigan or NE.

Hope it helps. Just an opinion from me. PM me if you want more input.
Chris

[SStadel]

Since flights are relatively cheap these days, you could always fly to the Midwest (Illinois) and rent an FE from us. Track time at Autobahn Country Club is cheap for lapping. We will have large fields at the CenDiv/Northern Conference races next year.

[provamo]

go to a pro school and get your license

THEN restart this thread

[marshall9]

No disrespect, but if you dont have the savings to buy a car, please have a credit card to swipe if you wad up a rental. Not trying to scare you, but it can happen.

[Pi_guy]

My suggestion is to go to a regional race and volunteer with a team or the event organizer like SCCA.
You need to see what grass roots formula cars are about. One point with entering a class with many competitors is one will be running at the same speed as you and you will have somebody to race. Having a person to race with is the difference from having a fun race event and tooling about the track like it is a test day.
Two out of a large group of competitors some one will be running same car and will offer advice and often needed parts.
Wings just complicate things until you get the basics of a formula car down there is no reason to over complicate it.

FB is a class that has a lot of tech to it, wings, paddle shifter a motor with some rpm. But often your lost with tech problems. Go to an event and ask Mike Rand what driving is, he started back in original FB when they had good motors.
The answer is not how much you do to the car or how fast you can go.
It is more about seat time.

[Buc01]

Best place to learn is is FF. If you are budget racer buy:

- 85 thru early 90's Van Diemen, Reynard, Citation, Or Crossle
- Swift DB1 is awesome car, but is quite a bit more $ than those above

They are all good cars that are very reasonably priced. Lots of value and speed for the $. Ask lots of questions, make the car reliable, get as much seat time as your wallet can stand. Then decide if you have the budget and desire to move to FC, FB, FM, FE. Those are not great "starter" cars and are quite a bit more expensive to run and require more maintenance.

Best of luck!

Aaron

[Matt Clark]

My suggestion is to go to a regional race and volunteer with a team or the event organizer like SCCA.
You need to see what grass roots formula cars are about. One point with entering a class with many competitors is one will be running at the same speed as you and you will have somebody to race. Having a person to race with is the difference from having a fun race event and tooling about the track like it is a test day.
Two out of a large group of competitors some one will be running same car and will offer advice and often needed parts.

This.
Stop by Watkins Glen for the Fun One in a couple weeks. It's turning into quite the small-bore formula car fest.
http://www.flr-scca.com/#!club-racing/fwdu3

[mikey]

I was in a similar spot as you 5 years ago. I ultimately jumped out of Corvettes and into FE. A bit of learning curve with aero, but it's flat bottom so it won't bite you like an FB can. Also the car is relatively cheap to run and maintain. Certainly less expensive than the Corvette was, even for HPDE. The wheelbase and track width is actually nearly identical to the Corvette. Getting to 9/10's with the car was pretty quick for me, but 10/10ths didn't quite come over 2 years before I got bored with it and moved up to Pro Mazda (FA class car).

Take Steve up on his offer and fly out to IL to try one! Be prepared to write a check the next day! You'll be hooked!

[problemchild]

I would take advice offered above and go to the track, hang out, meet some people and see what class works for you. The Glen Fun One would be an excellent choice.

The reality is that you have selected apples and oranges to choose between, and doing a test day is not the same as racing. On a test day, the FB would clearly be the noisiest, fastest, and most exciting. However, it would also be the most intimidating, most labor intensive, most expensive to run, and you will have difficulty finding people to race with, much less people running at your pace. As a budget minded newbie, you will have a long road ahead to be competitive. The FE and FF will be much more user friendly, although you will have the same issue of finding many other FE competitors in your area.

If you want to "race" with a bunch of other cars in your class, and have options with single class groupings in the Northeast, then FF, CF, and FV are your best options. You can even race FF in Canada and FV in USA/Canada on incredibly cheap spec tires, usually in single class groupings.

I never understand why budget-minded racers rent cars to try. When you do get your own car, you will wish you had that money back to spend on it. I think that finding strong classes in your area, with people you relate to, is the best way to select a class. You determine that by spending time at the race track.

And ..... only race cars you can afford to walk away from ..... when burned, crashed, or really broken. Great rule that most of us ignore because "it will never happen to us".

[AMDAS]

With limited racing experience one of of the best places to learn to drive is Formula Vee. Not as sexy as some of the wings and things, but you will learn all the key elements of open wheel racing, have some fun, while having decent fields, great competition, and a great community of racers with reasonable budgets.

If you ever want to give it a try, we are part of the SCCA "alternative" driving school being offered in October at NJ Motorsports Park. Not to bad of a drive for you to get there for the weekend, with reasonable costs for 3 days of driving, and most importantly you will learn a lot. It is also a great way to get your SCCA novice permit / license. Here is a link for more info.

http://www.advantagemotorsports.com/road-racing.html

Dave

[DanW]

"On a test day, the FB would clearly be the noisiest, fastest, and most exciting. However, it would also be the most intimidating, most labor intensive, most expensive to run, and you will have difficulty finding people to race with, much less people running at your pace." - problemchild

Running an open wheel car on a track day actually has its own set of issues. Everyone else will be in tintops. Sitting in a formula car alongside a Miata, you will be looking up at their door handles.

The tintop folks will simply not see you in their mirrors, closing in on them. They turn in and... crunch!! Most track day groups will not allow open wheel with fendered cars, usually citing insurance.

I have run with our local Lotus Club. Their cars are not much larger than a formula car, but I am still a bit intimidated approaching another driver nearing a corner. I have to assume he does not see me.

No issue with renting to see if you like it. Some prep shops will apply the rental fee to buying one of their cars. If they offer damage insurance buy it. It will lessen the pain if you wad it up. Many shops rent cars for SCCA drivers school. One of our CF guys rented a CF Crossle 30 for school and then rented for the entire season to concentrate on learning to race instead of wrenching. He has improved immensely over the course of the season. The above post from ADMAS is a great idea.


I have know guys who have bought cars, spent buckets to prep them to race ready and find out it was not for them for one reason or another. YMMV. I spent buckets of money and found I have absolutely no talent....

Regards,
Dan

[provamo]

but DanW you have fun

[Kazis31]

second that .
I don't think guys go in club racing to discover immense driving talent.
Fun is the name of the game.

[Hooked1stDay]

Hey All,
Thanks for the advice and help.

I will get the license first, and most likely start in FF, and see where I go from there.

Is there a way for me to tell how many FF cars run in the northeast, or other close regions?

[provamo]

Is there a way for me to tell how many FF cars run in the northeast, or other close regions?

not enough LOL

[Bob Wright]

There are a lot...question is how many are actually racing. The RCFFS group had 26 cars at Pittrace the first week in August, which is a petty good number in this day and age. The "Fun One" at WGI this month already has about 10 registered. You should go to that event and talk to people- in the current entry list there is a huge amount of collective knowledge about racing in general and FF in particular.

[Eric Little]

No disrespect, but if you dont have the savings to buy a car, please have a credit card to swipe if you wad up a rental. Not trying to scare you, but it can happen.

When I made the decision to get back into racing, I was fortunate in that I knew I enjoyed it having raced before so there was no worry of spending money only to find out it is not for me. I did do a test day to make sure I was still capable (I had not raced in about 20 years). The day went fine. I was offered a rental for a really well prepared car to race the season. I turned it down and purchased for exactly the reason Marshall mentions above. That is, if I wrecked a rental car, and mind you even if it wasn't my fault it was wrecked, I would have to instantly come up with the money to pay for repairs or replacement. That could be a big and sudden chunk of change that can be hard to plan for.

I knew that if I bought instead and the car was damaged, I could always put it in a corner and repair/replace when the budget could most afford to do so. Or, I could even sell what remained and move on (either to a new car, a different class, or another hobby).

As a bit more information for you in making decisions about the class, I did my research to see what people were running in my area. I have always loved open-wheel and that is where I wanted to go. I then looked at the various organizations to see how many participants they had and talked to folks about the cost and difficulty of running their class. I ultimately honed in on FF because: 1) it is reasonably cost effective (in the sense of racing... which means it is not as cost ineffective as others), 2) The cars have only mechanical grip which means better ability for the driver to concentrate on learning racing fundamentals, 3) There is a well subscribed class in my area with good competition, and 4) the guy that took me out for the test day became my engineer and driving coach so I had help.

Good luck with whatever you decide. Take your time and do the research to make sure you know what you are getting into and you meet your objectives. Some want the wheel-to-wheel competition that comes with big classes. Others want to get to run the car of their dreams even if they are the only one in their class. Know what you really want to get out of the experience before you plunk down your money.

Eric Little

[Pi_guy]

Hey All,
Thanks for the advice and help.

I will get the license first, and most likely start in FF, and see where I go from there.

Is there a way for me to tell how many FF cars run in the northeast, or other close regions?

PM me if you are going to Glen event this weekend, I know some F1600 guys that would be happy to talk to you.
Let me know and I will put you in touch with him.

[Ralph Z.]

Have you looked into the cost of renting? You may be surprised. This ain't a cheap hobby.

[Hooked1stDay]

I guess I should have been more specific about cash since it keeps coming up. I have the cash to go buy a car, and run it, I am not willing to right away until I know it is a class that I am going to stay in for at least a couple of years.

I don't want to go buy a car and then in 3 weekends decide I want to switch. That is why I am interested in renting for a while.

[Ralph Z.]

I guess I should have been more specific about cash since it keeps coming up. I have the cash to go buy a car, and run it, I am not willing to right away until I know it is a class that I am going to stay in for at least a couple of years.

I don't want to go buy a car and then in 3 weekends decide I want to switch. That is why I am interested in renting for a while.

Like others have said, you can't go wrong in FF. A great way to learn the art of driving that can be leveraged in other, more advanced, classes. Good luck!

[Matt Clark]

I'm going to be a little biased here, but don't overlook FV just yet either.
problemchild (Greg Rice) and AMDAS (Dave Scaler) both make great points about learning to drive in FVs first. these are 2 extremely experience formula car guys.
plus, FV is hands down the strongest (open wheel) class in the Northeast. there is always someone to race with & we are faster than some FF & CF at times too. for reference, there are only 8 FF-type cars & yet 25 FV-type cars total signed up so far for the Glen Fun One.

[TimH]

I don't want to go buy a car and then in 3 weekends decide I want to switch. That is why I am interested in renting for a while.

That's understandable, but these days you'll often find the cost of rental is high enough, and the depreciation on a purchase low enough, that you could turn around and sell the car after three weekends for a loss smaller than you would have paid in rent.

Just sayin'

[Ralph Z.]

That's understandable, but these days you'll often find the cost of rental is high enough, and the depreciation on a purchase low enough, that you could turn around and sell the car after three weekends for a loss smaller than you would have paid in rent.

Just sayin'

[Hooked1stDay]

I had not considered that...

[problemchild]

I had not considered that...

And as your handle suggests, you will more than likely get hooked after your first few laps in any car ..... so make the best rational decision you can before getting in a car.

[TDI PILOT]

I feel like renting is a huge waste of money if you have some mechanical aptitude. Be ready to spend +$2500 for a weekend rental plus a set of tires~ $1200ish. This is for a FB of course.

[Steve Demeter]

To find out how many of what class are running I would go to motorsportreg.com.

Search for club races near you and look at the entry lists.

[MotorCade]

I feel like renting is a huge waste of money if you have some mechanical aptitude. Be ready to spend +$2500 for a weekend rental plus a set of tires~ $1200ish. This is for a FB of course.

I think it depends heavily on one's situation. Renting can be very reasonable. For someone starting out in racing, or for someone who doesn't want to deal with any of the headache aspects of racing, renting can be a great way to go.

Let's say a novice wants to run their first season (I'll use FC, as that's the numbers I know):

Car: $15000
Making it race-worthy: $2500
Tires (3 sets for season + 1 set rains): 3200
Fuel (Avgas @ 18gal/weekend x 6 weekends @ $6/gal): 648
Misc consumables (oil, pads, gear oil, nuts and bolts) : 500
Trailer (open flat-bed): $2000

I won't include entry fees, food, or hotel, because those should be the same either way.

So, the total amount to pony up for the first season just for the car related expenses is: $23,848. And I believe these are very conservative numbers.

Or you can rent. I was hoping to have my 97 rented out this season, but life has made that difficult. Going to try to shake down the car next month and start renting out next year or very tail end of this season. I plan to price at $1000 per day with discounts for multi-day rental and/or season rental. So I'll use my numbers, pricing it with no discounts:

Car: 0
Race-prep: 0
Tires: 0 up to 3200, depends on customer preference for tire newness.
Fuel: 0
Misc: 0
Trailer: 0
Rental fees (12 race days @ $1000/day): 12,000

So, if a customer wanted as fresh of tires as the competitive guys, he'd spend 15,200 for a season rental (More likely less, if they committed to a full season). And while not 'cheap' nothing in racing is. It's paying for convenience, much like many services out there.

Who should rent:

1 - trying out a formula car or new class for first time
2 - need a car for racing school
3 - own car is down and need to make an event for series points
4 - don't have interest in wrenching or weekends to spend in the garage
5 - don't have storage space for a racecar or trailer
6 - don't have a tow vehicle
7 - not mechanically inclined or focusing on driving skill before learning mechanical skills
8 - desire convenience of 'arrive and drive'
9 - visiting friends in a different region and want to race with buddies there

Point being - there are a lot of solid reasons to rent. And when you figure in the convenience, it's not a waste at all.

Cheers

[Ralph Z.]

Except that the investment outlined above to acquire a car doesn't factor in the residual value when the vehicle is sold. That car is worth at least $15k next year.

[MotorCade]

It doesn't, that's true. However, there's a HUGE amount of expenses related to running a car that most novices don't have. How many tools have you accrued in your garage over time? I bet a bunch of expensive specialty ones, in addition.

Do you have a tow vehicle? A trailer? A garage? Those are all needed to own your own car.

And how long do you plan to hold the racecar before you sell to recoup your cash? Maybe you don't want to have $15K (+all the other stuff) tied up in it for the next several years. How many people who have all that investment have their car parked now and aren't racing? And it's hard to sell a car that isn't currently running/racing.

All I'm saying is there are many people for whom racing is more feasible as a renter, and not a 'waste' as was claimed. Not saying it is a better or worse option... just a reasonable option, and like all choices, depends on the individual situation.

Cheers

[tapandrack]

Do you have a tow vehicle? A trailer? A garage? Those are all needed to own your own car.

Exactly. These are the latent overhead costs of owning your own car. Once you get a trailer, you need the tow vehicle. Once you get the tow vehicle and trailer, you need a place to store it. Once you have a place to store the trailer and tow vehicle you will want the car nearby to work on it. Great if you have the space, but I am moving right now and one of the reasons is to get property that has shop space to accommodate the above. Slippery slope this racing!

[problemchild]

This thread was about a guy who is preparing to buy a race car. There are many valid reasons to rent, as noted above, but only one of those applies to this case, and some of us thought that was not the best way to utilize his resources. It was certainly not an attack on the people who prefer to rent than own.

[provamo]

someone here, a while back ran the numbers and more or less said that unless you run eight weekends a season/year it does not make sense to own

a friend made me an offer that i could not refuse so instead of spending my retirement hanging out and reading at the coffee cafe i am fiberglass itchy stinky oily dirty and running around for bits and pieces and online ordering stuff

when i was young i spent every cent on racing, now i limit myself to a certain percentage of my cash worth

to the OP i say get it out of your system! just do it asap one way or another

[loudes13]

Who rents FF, FC, or FM in the Midwest? Looking to run 3 majors and qualify for runoffs next year. Nothing too far away.

Prefer a mid pack car and only need sticker tires for runoffs. I won't have the seat time to run up front, so I don't need to pay for a front running operation or tires. Just needs to be safe and finish enough races to qualify.

I also have a truck and enclosed trailer. If helping transport nets me a better price, we can discuss.

My email is allen@allenskillicorn.com.

[pacratt]

Eric,
Attend some races (more than one) to get a feel for the classes and costs.
Try to attend, at least, one SCCA event and one vintage event.
Talk to people...ANYONE & EVERYONE. MOST amateur racers will welcome you and speak openly about their budgets. The ones who won't are total dicks and not worth talking to anyway.
I'm a Vee racer (formerly SCCA, now vintage) and am biased toward vees, of course.
But there are LOTS of rentals in several classes that are both affordable and will give you a great view into what it's all about.
I'm not very familiar with the east/northeast but feel free to contact me direct if you want chat.
Glenn

[Johnny B]

All opinions above are correct. Visit a few tracks and speak with the drivers and crew members about prep and racing expenses. I recently attended the Mid Ohio school for sedans then went to the Lucas Oil school for formula cars. Both are very different with setup, maintenance costs and driving style. For now I will stick with lapping days until I feel more comfortable in the car and make my own educated decision

John B.

[FVRacer21]

Here is my take and I fully admit I am a FV driver who would love to race FF, FC or FB.

Start in either FV or FF. (if formula car interested.)

Do not start in anything with wings.

If you are a new driver and unless you have the access to money and crew, you will be disappointed in trying to run a complicated car. Yes you can drive around with a basic setup, but why just drive around annoying your fellow competitors when you can be competitive and progressing in a lower class.

I will let the FF guys make the argument for their class, but here is mine for FV.

No special tools required for the most part - I mean, no scales, fancy toe equipment, laser alignment, etc. - which means a bigger trailer, etc.

You do not need very expensive brakes, shocks, exhaust, radios, data acquisition, etc. However, if you would like to, you certainly can put them on your car.

There is no water pump, hoses, radiators, antifreeze, dry sump, ECUs to complicate things.

The technology may be old, but it is proven.

For the most part, you will be part of a group that has a vested interest in you and your car.

And if you decide to move up, most of your personal equipment goes with you, the value of the FV is fairly low, so you will probably sell it for 60 - 80% of what you paid for it. More of course if you fix it up and make it faster.

A somewhat depressing note - in my 30+ years in FV, I have seen many new drivers leave to go to a faster class. With few exceptions, they are out of racing within 3 years unless they come back to FV. In racing, the curve to move up is very steep and unless you have a lot of talent and time, or a lot of money, it is hard to climb.

By all means, go to the Glen with the pen and a notebook and do not be afraid to ask hard questions about, cars, about parts, about time, etc.

I want all potential drivers to have the best and most fantastic experience the can have.

ChrisZ

PS - Renting a FV is possible and will most likely be cheaper than buying a car and then finding out you do not like the class. Just go in and have a plan - endless renting is expensive, but if it works for you....