Beyond Coffee & Donuts

[rickb99]

Have a question and challenge for all the ME's or wanna be ME's here. Real situation from Pacific Raceway in Seattle a while back.

Open wheel formula car goes upside down in the one small area that has soft gravel in it. Driver's head gets buried so deep in the gravel that he cannot breath!

Due to the gravel, weight of the car and the ageing of three turn workers there, they cannot role the car back over. Keeps sliding in the gravel. They are just able to keep the car up high enough for the driver to breath until more help arrives. Whew....

Now the question is, can somebody come up with a relatively simple aid for one or three ageing turn workers could use to turn a formula car back over or, hold it up enough so the two workers could assist the driver in getting out?

This could become ever more important as turn workers continue to age.

I could lift the front end of our Reynard FC's up until my quad. bypass. That really took the strength out of me mainly because of the three months in a coma and another 3 in physical recovery. A lot of YOUR turn workers are reaching conditions similar to mine.

So, anybody have ideas? Drawings would be good.

[suzrm121]

http://www.matjack.com/matjack-low-p...-cushions.html

and a couple CO2 cartridges

[beachguy12]

Those type of low pressure bags are easy to use and have good lifting ability. I think the CO2 cartridges would need to be pretty large though. While those bags don't require high pressure they do have a lot of volume. Also they are not light. Weight may be an issue. Maybe one of the regions has tried them and can respond?

[BeerBudgetRacing]

While the airbags are really nice.... since there doesn't seem to be a price anywhere on the internet (quote requests only) I suspect they can only be bought with government dollars.... (the free ones)....

And then you'd need 10+ bags per track and training and maintenance and testing....

Is the suggestion to roll the car onto it's side? Or lift it upside down?
How about a 10ft 2x4? Stick in through some a-arms and lift. You'd roll the car sufficiently I'd think. I think they are about $3 ea....

[SEComposites]

Not employing corners workers that can't do the job would seem to be good place to start!

[Roland V. Johnson]

You going to get us a fresh batch of new young husky strong ones?

[Offcamber1]

Just askin'. And if employed as I presume, how much are they paid?

Most of the young husky ones are out chasing girls or pokemon, not crashed race cars.

[rickb99]

Just askin'. And if employed as I presume, how much are they paid?.....

Some of our marque clubs and racing schools in this area do have a 'limited' number of paid corner workers. Typically they are paid $100 a day plus lunch. So, it's not like they are inexpensive. 10 corners/3 workers = $3,000 a day plus meals.

Now, once you do that, what about pre-grid, timing and scoring, driver services?? Do you pay them too??

Which is why events using paid workers in this area are normally MINIMUM staffing with some turns not maned and most with one worker. Safety just isn't a consideration. In trouble drivers wait for one rescue truck.

[Neil_Roberts]

Open wheel formula car goes upside down in the one small area that has soft gravel in it. Driver's head gets buried so deep in the gravel that he cannot breath!

Pave the gravel area, or place a barrier between it and the track.

[Purple Frog]

Gravel traps are so old 20th Century.
Even Crashcar has done away with them.
Where they have been paved over there is so much less damage to cars going off course.

Instead of trying to turn the car back over, get down and sweep the gravel out from in front of the driver's head. Obviously, it was loose, or he wouldn't be buried so deep. Just saying.

[JustDave]

Not employing corners workers that can't do the job would seem to be good place to start!

At the club level I think you find most corner workers/safety crew are volunteers that do it for the love of the sport or have retired from active racing. Without these people you wouldn't have a race or, your entry fees would be even higher to pay for a 'professional volunteer'

Dave C.

[SEComposites]

At the club level I think you find most corner workers/safety crew are volunteers that do it for the love of the sport or have retired from active racing. Without these people you wouldn't have a race or, your entry fees would be even higher to pay for a 'professional volunteer'

Dave C.

I'm sure that's the case but given the scenario outlined above it doesn't inspire confidence. If I was sitting upside down buried in the gravel in red hot race car I'd be prepared to pay a higher entry fee at that moment in time.

[rickb99]

[color=purple]Gravel traps are so old 20th Century.

This is a unique location. As a driver, you are cresting a blind hill and turning left at the same time. It's about a 60 to 70 MPH corner and the car gets super light and unstable at the apex. As you get beyond the apex on the right, the land falls off into a valley and if you run through that you go off a cliff and drop down about 100 feet on to a railroad track. You've just got to stop a car going off there quickly. And, you cannot use additional Jersey's along there as drivers coming up the track is blind due to cresting the hill. Although not ideal, gravel is a good choice there.

This is a very difficult corner and has 'events' of one kind or another every race weeend.

The idea of a device or way to roll a formula car back over easily by two (small) guys has applications far beyond this one corner.

[kea]

How about a length (or two) of steel pipe, 7-8' in length. That should be light enough for the "old" help to carry, yet give them the leverage needed to roll it on it's side.

[JustDave]

I guess those in charge will have to be more selective who they put at this particular corner ie: age, health, fitness

Dave C.

[Steve Demeter]

"Give me a lever and a place to stand and I will move the Earth" Archimedes

A lever is the best option IMHO.

[DaveW]

How about a length (or two) of steel pipe, 7-8' in length. That should be light enough for the "old" help to carry, yet give them the leverage needed to roll it on it's side.

How about some 2" diameter 6061-T6 Aluminum 1/4"-wall tubing? It would be stronger for the same weight, or lighter for the same strength than mild steel tubing or pipe.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

This type of situation can happen to any open cockpit car such as an MG.
Anything with a single tall hoop.

So, what do those weigh?

Any of the suggest 'levers' can be incorrectly used and non-effective. But something is better than nothing.

[Roland V. Johnson]

Being able to turn a car right side up is a great idea, but I don't think it ever was the job of a corner worker. That is what we have emergency crews for. Having worked a lot of corners in the past, we were taught our job was to keep the drivers informed and to stay at our post and do that . You do not have to be the greatest physical specimen to do that job. If you had extra people at the station, you could send someone to assist the driver if possible. We were also taught never to run across an active track...remember Tom Pryce and South African GP

[rickb99]

How about a length (or two) of steel pipe, 7-8' in length. That should be light enough for the "old" help to carry.....

I'm thinking that might be the best solution.

[Steve Demeter]

Very true about the emergency crews.

Those are the guys trained to deal with an injured driver hopefully without making the injury worse.

But if a guy can not breathe I would say that is more important than waiting for the emergency crews.

Get the levers and use them judiciously.

[JohnPaul]

Pulley winch deally. $40.00. But I agree with Ben, I think it's the workers that are the problem. I was pinned under a tire wall after a very high speed wreck for 15 minutes. They didn't call a black or red flag (probably the right one) for a good 10 minutes. No urgency what so ever. If the car caught fire I would have been dead. Say what you will about me and how I feel about their competence but i knew that day that drivers are on our own out there...... Or how many times have I stood by and watched cars burn to the ground because corner workers wouldn't come to put it out. I keep a hand held extinguisher in my car and put it out myself now. And I don't care if they do it for free, if don't do a good job it isn't worth it even free, plus, I pay hard earned money to be out there how about spending money on good help so people don't get hurt or die??

[rickb99]

////. Or how many times have I stood by and watched cars burn to the ground because corner workers wouldn't come to put it out. I keep a hand held extinguisher in my car and put it out myself now.........

I agree with your opinion John Paul and have seen the positive results of corner workers responding to car fires more then once.

But the most dramatic involved a car running off track in a downhill section, hit a tree stump and jumped 20 feet in the air and started an endo down the track slamming nose then tail into the pavement. Finally settled down on it's roof continuing down hill until it was almost directly in front of a turn station and then, burst in to flames. Two guys came out of turn station with extinguishers and started fighting the fire. I was running from the next turn station with a big water extinguisher to try and help. Finally, safety truck arrived and the best safety guy we have crawled into the stilll burning car to release the driver from his inverted seat. But first, he had to rip the dash out of the car to give him room. in the mean time the 'turn workers' were continuing to fight the fire. A whole group of big bores came down the hill and immediately stopped while almost every driver got out of their cars bringing hand helds down to help out.

AND that is the reason why out here in the Northwest we feel it is the turn workers job to help with driver safety and to leave the turn station to assist. Turn workers out here undergo training by the chief of safety several times a year including fire fighting, driver extraction assistance in the event of fire.

[mmi16]

And then there are the NASCAR owned tracks - Flaggers flag, they don't respond to an incident and only the NASCAR safety personnel go on track. You stop in front of a flag station and get no help whatsoever.