Lithium Batteries

[mikehinkle]

Who's running a Lithium battery? Can you please provide the battery brand and model you are running as well as if it is a Lithium-Ion(Li-Ion) or Lithium-Iron (Lifepo4) and charger you are using if not a standard car battery charger. I am wondering what size battery gets a Vee through a weekend or at least one day before requiring a charge.

I as well as others are interested in some real world feedback before spending $$.

THANK YOU!!

[rob66x]

I use a 12v. lit
hium ferrus battery from balistic it weighs almost nothing and is approx 5x2.5x4.5 in. it cranks my kawi zx 10 r just fine

[mikehinkle]

I am not worried about cranking amps I am worried about total AMP hours. The real life AMP hours of these batteries is very low compared to traditional batteries so I am wondering who has been using a off a shelf one in a vee and have they ever ran it dead? How often does it need to be charged?
I assume you use a alternator in your ZX10R engine? We do not.

[Amon]

Mike,

I had one about three - four years ago with the charger etc. and didn't like it as I felt
it wasn't as durable as the std. battery I replaced! Although the weight savings was a plus I just didn't trust it!

Mark

[BLS]

More than one V is using this:

http://www.ballisticparts.com/produc...roducts_id=425

I had no problem making starts for 2 days and running. I would normally charge at the end of the day, but missed a couple times with no problem. I used their charger as well.

That battery has now sat for about 1.5 years without charge and has lost next to nothing.

[mikehinkle]

BLS: are you sure you are using the 8 cell part number 100-011 ? This seems like it would not be enough for a weekend. If you are sure that this is the correct part number then I am impressed!!

[BLS]

"BLS: are you sure"

Mike, yes, others use it as well. I generally charged it at the end of the day, but missing that and it still was fine.

[Matt Clark]

I use the 16 cell Ballistic & their BMS charger. I've had no issues for a regular race weekend & have run test days before the weekends too on a single charge. But, I would recommend topping it off just in case.

http://www.ballisticparts.com/produc...roducts_id=428

[Jphoenix]

I'm using a Shorai LFX24A3-BS12, Just under 4 lbs. I think, works fine.

[Millennium Technologies]

Thank you guys for using our batteries

If you have any questions or need anything please message us here or call us directly. Tons of good information on our website.

http://www.ballisticparts.com/

[bail500]

I used a Shorai lithium Iron. It would not hold a charge, so i sent it back, and they sent me a re-conditioned one. I bought their expensive charger and followed instructions. No joy. Long conversations with their engineering staff. Still no success. I did not have good experience with Li. Some are using them with success. They have very specific maintenance and charging procedures

[Chris Livengood]

Lithium ion batteries are a well understood technology. I'm surprised that nobody here is soldering packs. Not a lot of mystery on how to keep them working and working well. I use a tiny one in my motorcycle, and I know lots of guys run total loss for many hours with motorcycles, so it seems like a natural fit.

[mikehinkle]

We do have at least one guy in the area who has made his own pack.

I am not as interested in doing all the work if I can buy a pre made pack for less then $200 unless the cost savings was substantial. I plan on taking a chance and ordering one over the winter for testing next year. I will try to run it on a test day for 4 sessions and see what happens. I will most likely order a cheaper alternative to the ballastics

http://www.batterytender.com/Batteri...t-Battery.html

[Chris Livengood]

We do have at least one guy in the area who has made his own pack.

I am not as interested in doing all the work if I can buy a pre made pack for less then $200 unless the cost savings was substantial. I plan on taking a chance and ordering one over the winter for testing next year. I will try to run it on a test day for 4 sessions and see what happens. I will most likely order a cheaper alternative to the ballastics

http://www.batterytender.com/Batteri...t-Battery.html

This is the pack I use in my motorcycle.

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...Lipo_Pack.html

I'm not suggesting that you should use this pack, it would not work. That said, it's comparable in many ways to a Ballistic or other batteries in size, weight, Ah, but a fraction of the cost. Sure I'm not getting a warranty, but who cares, I paid a 6th of the price. And I think if you did research you could come up with a similar solution for a Vee.

[Pi_guy]

Lithium ion batteries are a well understood technology. I'm surprised that nobody here is soldering packs. Not a lot of mystery on how to keep them working and working well. I use a tiny one in my motorcycle, and I know lots of guys run total loss for many hours with motorcycles, so it seems like a natural fit.

Compared to the understanding of wet acid batteries I do not agree.
The Li series of batteries can have problems, in particular if manufacturing process take the cost effective way over testing and safety. Can I mention batteries in hoover boards?

There has been many incidences were Li batteries burst into flames, many RC tracks require special procedures in charging them. There are examples of them bursting into flames in race cars.

Not saying run away from them. I suggest you be very aware in the use of them. One way is to have a cell tester and then the proper factory recommended charges.

One observation I have noticed is the warning on a pack of cigarettes is less severe than warning I have seen on Li batteries.

[mikehinkle]

I raced RC cars when lipo batteries came out and the battery linked to from hobby king is very similar to what we can in fact I have ordered batteries from hobbyking and other overseas suppliers because of the cost savings. I don't doubt this battery would start a bike but the MAH rating is very low we ran 4000 and 5000 ratings. 1000MAH is 1 AMP HOUR so the ballistics battery should be 4600 MAH the battery you linked to is only 2650MAH so a little over half the size. The C rating is also slightly important because this will determine the maximum discharge rate but regardless of this I would not use this battery because it is a LIPO

LIPO and some other types of Lithium packs can explode like a match head going off when exposed to air. I have seem RC cars turn into fireballs on the track and melt every piece of plastic on the car from the extreme heat. Most often this was caused by the battery being abused and not because of damage to the battery. By abused I mean not being charged correctly, balanced charged or the battery being under rated for the discharge. (the C rating)

The battery I linked to from battery tender is a LIFEPO4. This is a newer technology that is much safer. For anyone looking at lithium batteries I strongly encourage you to only consider LITHIUM IRON PHOSPHATE batteries or LIFEPO4.

I'm not a expert just sharing the little that I do know.

[J Leonard]

Think Chernobyl or Fukushima in your race car.

[mikehinkle]

Lithium Polymer like the one posted from hobbyking

Reasons NOT TO RUN RC CAR LIPOS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQheOtdCTjs

[BLS]

A lot of V's are using lithium ion batteries without issue. FF's as well I believe.

[problemchild]

A lot of V's are using lithium ion batteries without issue. FF's as well I believe.

I use them in FVs, FF (Honda or Kent), and F2000. While I only have been using the Shorai,
I have been using different sizes in the different applications. My supplier advised that the "special" charger was not necassary, so I use whatever Walmart charger is on hand.

They are the most effective method of weight reduction I have found. As long as the minimum weight rules are set to little skinny butt drivers, I will use them. I will use a quality traditional battery in applications where we don't need the weight reduction.

[Chris Livengood]

To be clear, my motorcycle is kickstart only. I actually just buy the cheapest pack that meets my minimum performance specifications in both paper specs and in real world testing. But I never recommended the unit I linked to, in fact quite the opposite.

[bugcollections]

I am running a Shorai in my vee. No issues. Use their charger. Note: I am not an electrical engineer nor an expert in batteries; but is my understanding all of the fire problems are with Lithium ION batteries; not Lithium IRON batteries. Shorai batteries are Lithium IRON. I have heard of some second-hand accounts of Lithium ION battery fires in formula vees. The current Lithium fire problems in Samsung phones are Lithium ION. From my limited knowledge I would not use a Lithium ION battery in a vee.

[2Dogs]

"BLS: are you sure"

Mike, yes, others use it as well. I generally charged it at the end of the day, but missing that and it still was fine.

Based on the experience of people in this thread, I bought a couple of 8 cell lifepo4 batteries to try out. I bought the Ballistic 8 cell, and it worked ok for one session then discharged far enough to go into save mode when I put it on the charger. I contacted Ballistic and they said "The 100-011 8cell is not designed to be used in total loss cars. None of our batteries or any of the lithium batteries on the market are."

I also bought the Antigravity brand, also 8 cell. It held it's charge great and I ran 80 minutes total across 4 sessions without charging it, and it still cranked strong when I started the car to put it on the trailer. Antigravity also says they don't warranty total loss systems, but they do say the 8 cell is recommended for 750 - 1200 CC engines.

It is nice to have a battery that weighs 1 lb and cranks all day. From what I read the risk is draining the battery past a certain point, from which it can't recover. So I suppose putting it on the charger asap after each session is still a good idea. The Antigravity has 9 amp hours capacity, and the Ballistic has maybe 2.3, so I suppose that is the difference.

So that's my experience of one race weekend. I look forward to giving it another go in a few weeks.

[grapefarmeral]

I ran a Shorai for three years with no problem. I purchased a new one last December anticipating the January races in Florida. I was unable to go, so I put the battery in storage mode. When May came around I switched it to charge. I put the battery in the car and no joy.. Three volts is what it read. I tried to get the seller to do something, but they said it was the factory's responsibility. I called the factory and was told since it was going in a non listed vehicle (Formula Vees are not on the mfg. list) it wouldn't be covered by warranty. Fortunately I did not run the battery in the car so they will either rebuild or replace the unit. The tech also said if it's a total loss system, the battery should be charged between sessions as the voltage window is rather small.. Hopefully I'll have it back in time for the Glen in a few weeks..

[BLS]

"I bought the Ballistic 8 cell, and it worked ok for one session then discharged far enough to go into save mode when I put it on the charger."

It is certainly true the battery should not be discharged be low a certain level. It is at risk of not being recoverable. However, I do know of at least one FV that charged it back to life. As I recall it was charged and discharged slightly several times and then worked just fine.

It all depends upon your current draw. In my case, the ignition and a couple instruments is all I had, and the car started quickly. No problem not charging at the end of the day, although I normally did.

I used the special charger to keep the cells balanced. Not required but seems better.

Added note: Many chargers for lead acid batteries do not charge above 12.8 volts, which leaves your lithium ion battery at less than full charge. Since it's main function is starting, which it does a good job at, and not supplying current over time, which is not its good quality, starting with a full charge is important. You need a charger that charges to the full 13.6 volts. I looked it up, discharge below 8 volts is the non recover threshold, but it may recover.

[2Dogs]

You need a charger that charges to the full 13.6 volts. I looked it up, discharge below 8 volts is the non recover threshold, but it may recover.

I have the "OptiMATE Lithium 4s 0.8A, TM-471, 8-step 12.8/13.2V 0.8A Battery saving charger-tester-maintainer" and it have a "save" mode that detects when the battery is discharged. I left it on the chager in save overnight and in the morning it was back to a green light. I've not used it since though. The other battery did much better. I think the low amp hour rating of the Ballistic is what caused the problem.

[BLS]

I'm not familiar with that particular charger but it sounds fine. I think the save mode is one that does a charge / discharge cycle...

I doubt many racers know their current draw. I calculated, then measured mine before I bought the ballistic battery. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but the capacity was more than enough for a weekend of racing, depending on the starter draw which is a bit of a variable. I have not used my new data system since I've been off the track. I'll need to check the current draw of that...