FC cars at New Jersey
The season just gets better and better. 2 FC cars started the weekend at New Jersey. Tim Minor did not make it to the race. Doug Rocco was the only one in the race. Doug you have been the only one who has carried the banner for FC to all the Majors this year. Way to go. I guess this class is dead.
Hilton Tallman
Hopefully you are wrong about it being dead, but I don't really think you are
Steve Bamford
Hopefully I am wrong. But this year doesn't support that. Kind of bitter sweet for you being where you are right now. Top of the charts, running well and having the numbers fall out from under even the Pro ranks. Everyone is scratching there heads over this one. On the Left coast Bobby Oregel, PR1 Motorsports, has converted many of the cars like mine to Fit cars. I just might do that with mine. The right Coast FF group is having a blast .Originally Posted by Steve Bamford
Hopefully you are wrong about it being dead, but I don't really think you are
HT
I am impressed with the RCFF group, really good to see guys coming together & racers committing to weekends like this to make it work. Challenge Cup Series for FV is doing something similar & having great results.
I guess this is one of the missing things for FC.
Steve Bamford
I was at New Jersey on Friday.
Still have not finished my car.Hopefully this week to align and start testing.
I have to send out a BIG THANK YOU to Bill Hoops and Grieseger Motorsports.
They let me use there car this past Friday so I could get qualified for the Runoffs.
I hope we can start to convince people to bring out there FC cars,Still a great class.
Yir
Tim MinorFc88
Tim Minor
As someone with a fairly large vested interest in this topic....
I would be very interested to hear from current FC owners and others who are either thinking about becoming an owner or more importantly- have decided not to:
What do you think is wrong and what could be changed to fix it?
Is it the current chassis? Motor? Available venues? Cost? Other?
FF has seen a resurgence in parts of the country during the last couple of years, even as FC has collapsed- Thoughts on that one? There are a lot of FC's for sale right now all over the country and the prices are getting better all the time. There's a group in the Pacific NW that seems to be relatively healthy and growing in numbers- why FC instead of FF or FM or ....?
Most important question- is there a fix? Or should we all just let the class die and find something new to race? At the current rate it will die and soon- first de-listed on the Major's level, then it will simply become irrelevant on the regional level.
There are hundreds of these cars out there, most appear parked.
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In memory of Joe Stimola and Glenn Phillips
FC cars
Heck, we had 3 FC cars at Waterford Hills for one of their club weekends, which was a week after a GLC series event at Mid-Ohio. (the overall entry for this one was down too)
And they are all new to formula cars this year.
All Pintos.
Some observations:
The one thing that I have learned is that racers are turned off by uncertainty. The F2K series hit the track and experienced big numbers. F2K was THE place to go race and you did it with an SCCA compliant FC car. Great weekends, lots of track time, no hassles... Then the F1600 class was introduced. Not a bad thing, but now a racer had two options and now the F2K class had to share the spotlight with F1600. Then the FA class was introduced, now a racer had three options. Then it was announced that the F4 class would join the ranks... Now the Mazda car has been introduced. What to do...
IMHO there has been too much noise and mixed messaging. The racing is still great, the venues are wonderful but it doesn't take much to turn people off.
The other thing is that there is no longer a "BUZZ" about the series. Very little discussion on line about the races, the cars, etc... Promotion (to other racers) is everything.
The F2K series killed SCCA FC. Can it be re-ignited for both? Yes I think so but it will take a joint effort to make it happen and that needs to start now. There is nothing wrong with the formula as far as I can see, it is primarily a perception/promotion issue.
Way back a few years ago, during a NHMS event, I had a discussion with Bob Introne, former Area 1 Director. He strongly lamented that SCCA BOD had agreed to let Pro sanction the F2KCS. His point was that it killed SCCA Club FC. I saw his point.
FC was always great bang for the buck. Still my favorite class.
Here's my take on why FC will die:
1) Introduction of F2KCS split and divided the possible entrants. When I first started, I quickly learned a lot from the faster guys in the NARRC. If those faster guys were not present, I would have languished. F2KCS split the faster guys (with usually more money) away, and now there is no place for learning to occur. As good as F2KCS is, the cheap and less experienced guys just will not enter. You've now lost the growth pool.
2) The expensive Zetec also contributed. The price for an engine is just plain silly. I bought an RF93 and was fairly competitive with the thing for half the cost of just the Zetec engine. But that was at the beginning of the Zetec era... not any more. The Zetec engine rules are explicit, and they are not followed. It killed any motivation for a cheap Pinto guy to run. Area under the torque curve matters.
Lack of "buzz" and uncertainty are NOT the issues. Wake up.
My take on F2K is that it might have killed SCCA FC but the reason was simply the fault of SCCA. I know I am sick of 10 other class on track at the same time running into or over by some. Not enjoyable at LRP to be 3 lap's into a race and be in the middle of a carousel just going around and around until the finish. I am sure part of the reason F2K was even formed was they wanted single class racing. Thompson last weekend saw I think 33 FV cars show up for a great weekend of racing because Thompson guaranteed they would have there own run group. It took awhile before the FV guys would believe them, but to Thompsons credit they did. And it has paid off. Don't need F2K, don't need SCCA. Need tracks to tell everyone we will honor our commitment to a one class group if you commit to supporting it. Look around . That is what the RCFF guys are all about as well as the NWFC guys. They have spent the time to get the cars involved and make it fun again. Mike Rand and Joe Marsinski ( sorry Joe I killed that one) have done the same thing , made it fun. Single car groups.
The organizations you wrote about are doing a great job & club guys are going towards it. F2K does an amazing job but I believe the a fair amount of the Club guys, or new drivers, feel intimidated getting on track with some of the F2K guys. Without drawing in Club drivers to become regular F2K guys there is new blood.
Maybe I am totally wrong but that is the feeling I get even in F1600.
Perhaps a version of RCFF or Challenge Cup for FC is what is needed? Drivers need to commit to certain events to make it work as they others have shown it can be done.
Steve Bamford
I have been running the F2k series and majors events for years.
I am not one of the" Big Buck Teams ".
I had 2 pinto engines and would have to get rebuilds once a year (4k) to stay at the pointy end of the grid.
I converted my Van Diemen to a Ztech and ran it for 3 seasons and sold it.
The team I sold it too ran it another season before rebuild.
I ran my Citation for 4 seasons and 2 Pro championships,and test day's included.
So this notion that the Ztech is a bad choice I can't agree with.
I believe we as a group should try and put together some positive ideas and I would be happy to be included in the discussion.
I am in the automotive repair business and have first hand knowledge of how the cost of parts and labor have gone up.
I believe we have a good solid package in engines and I have said many times that trying to take 1970 technology and make it the same as current is very hard to accomplish.I believe that the engine builders have done the best job they can and so has the club.
There are plenty of cars out there sitting and the question is how do we get them to the events.
Please let me know your thoughts.
Yir
Tim MinorFc88
Tim Minor
If all the drivers and prep shops who have stopped running F2000 in the last 5 years, stopped proclaiming the class is dying, and started bringing race cars to the track, then it would not be dying. F4 or no other class can compare in bang for the buck, so it is a totally self-inflicted condition, compounded by FRP sending negative messages by pursuing alternative classes, so it can be reversed easily. If you have a F2000 car, contact 3 other F2000 racers you raced with, and agree to bring your cars out to some of the same events. If you have a prep shop, start selling F2000 instead of telling people it is dying. The rules are stable. The tire situation has never been better. No rule changes are necessary. It is conceptual, and easily remedied by the people with cars parked in their garage.
Greg Rice, RICERACEPREP.com
F1600 Arrive-N-Drive for FRP and SCCA, FC SCCA also. Including Runoffs
2020 & 2022 F1600 Champion, 2020 SCCA FF Champion, 2021 SCCA FC Champion,
2016 F2000 Champion, Follow RiceRacePrep on Instagram.
Anyone who has grown up with the F2K group knows it started with all the FC cars and drivers that at the time were running SCCA events every weekend. Bob and Al pulled the trigger and started the F2K series for the same reason we are talking about now. Single run groups for FC cars. They all came to experience this racing. Then the teams came and it became an arrive and drive series with very few of the cars being owned, wrenched , and driven by the same person. Most of them have gone away . How many cars are privately owned in the series today? How long can Dad put up with Jr. taking the car out and smashing it into every thing but the tow truck? At what 16K for a race weekend , and with people that can just as easily walk away from racing to do something else because it is just something else to try, not a passion. This what I see has happened to F2K . The car owners have long since gone away and the arrive and drive people have moved on to something else leaving the paddock empty. Tim's right . The car as it is is a pretty good piece. I don't see any change that will not creep up in price as the years go on.I have been running the F2k series and majors events for years.
I am not one of the" Big Buck Teams ".
I had 2 pinto engines and would have to get rebuilds once a year (4k) to stay at the pointy end of the grid.
I converted my Van Diemen to a Ztech and ran it for 3 seasons and sold it.
The team I sold it too ran it another season before rebuild.
I ran my Citation for 4 seasons and 2 Pro championships,and test day's included.
So this notion that the Ztech is a bad choice I can't agree with.
I believe we as a group should try and put together some positive ideas and I would be happy to be included in the discussion.
I am in the automotive repair business and have first hand knowledge of how the cost of parts and labor have gone up.
I believe we have a good solid package in engines and I have said many times that trying to take 1970 technology and make it the same as current is very hard to accomplish.I believe that the engine builders have done the best job they can and so has the club.
There are plenty of cars out there sitting and the question is how do we get them to the events.
Please let me know your thoughts.
Yir
Tim MinorFc88
HT
What he said....
HT
Ask the people who have cars and are NOT running. I have one... and decided to not spend the money for an engine since I could buy a complete Dallara for not much more money than that engine. If I've no one to run with, I'd rather do it in a car with more performance.
You guys are running... you don't have the needed perspective to effect decisions. You've also long lost the growth pool. All your previous decisions killed that growth pool. Do you believe that your present decisions will get it back?
Potential helpful ideas:
Put out a survey to all of us with cars but who are not running.
Add a new cam to the Pinto. Allow different rod lengths.
Allow a restricted YAC. The aluminum Pinto head was a dumb and expensive idea. A decent 4 valve head for the Pinto would have been a better decision. Stop specifying ****. The decisions coming out of the boards seems to focus on who will get the business rather than on benefiting the people supposedly being represented.
Work out an F3-like restrictor size and let people decide which engine
De-specify the induction and ECU on Zetec.
The engine should be cheap. It's only a mule to get around the track.
Come up with local programs to get the experienced guys to attend and facilitate newer driver growth and car setup at Regionals (or whatever you call them today). Your solution must include a grassroots campaign.
Find a tire, maybe like FF, that will last, even with slightly less performance.
Back to basics. Relatively cheap fun.
I was going to write something similar, but Greg hit the nail on the head with this.
To avoid putting Mis-information out there, NWFC has only had one race, on a weekend full of races, that was FC only. We will have our second and third in 3 years of real operation at our next race weekend at Mission, BC on August 8th and 9th... Anyone in the area should come and check it out.
Also, there are a lot of reasons for why FC entry has declined in a large part of the verbal part of the country. No reason to continue any of the bashing, it makes the situation look worse than it is.
The following are things we have done, or that have helped out here in the northwest
1. We have picked 4 weekends at the tracks that have the largest contingent of FC's where we encourage everybody to show up and run for a championship of our own design. 4 weekends is good. It's not too much of a burden to show up to 4 weekends especially when 3 of the four are only two days long, for a lot of competitors it's less about the cost of towing, and more about the time commitment away from home/work/family that causes them to not travel.
2. We have a great mail list that allows direct contact with racers, potential racers, and those who are just interested in following along. With this we also write a couple newsletters a month to promote what's going on, and engage those who are thinking about joining.
3. We try to make the racing across all generations of cars as close as possible, then we handicap with points distribution. Zetecs have a min. Weight of 1240, pintos 1190, CFC (pre-90 in our case) is 1175. This tightened things up, but was not enough to even out the pinto's and zetecs. So this year we changed it up so if you finished ahead of a car from a generation or two ahead of yours you were awarded double the bonus points you would receive for finishing ahead of cars from the same generation. Plus we score zetecs against zetecs, pintos against pintos. So our races can have 2 or 3 "class" winners and then we combine scores to determine who the weekend winner is. We do this because it is much more impressive for a 95 pinto to finish ahead of everybody in the field except one Zetec who has a car no one can touch. It's still a great accomplishment for the Zetec as they are running away from their own generation of cars too, just not as impressive.
4. We have a group of 8-9 guys who are going to make 75% of our schedule. We are going to work on getting everyone to travel at least one weekend a year next.
5. We have guys who are in leadership roles in all of the sanctioning bodies we run with. They help represent our groups interests to these groups and can keep things from changing in a way that deters open wheel racers and they can create changes that help attract more FC's. I highly recommend FC racers take on these leadership roles with their local/regional clubs.
6. We focused on getting people in at the lowest cost of entry and highest initial value. This means catering to the late model pintos. These shouldn't run more than 20k. Anyone who can really afford racing can get into one of these and can competitively run it over a long period of time without having serious costs detract from their abilities to get it on track a couple times a year. There are far more late model pintos out there than their are zetecs. Do whatever you can to make FC about these cars and you will see your entry numbers climb.
There is a lot more that we've done, but I'm tired of writing this list. Feel free to contact us via pm or through the website in my signature of you want help getting An FC series similar to ours up and running in your area.
One more thing for now.
Multi-class racing looks a lot like, and can eventually turn into, single class racing when you keep showing up in your FC and talk everyone else into racing FC's with you.
I won't go as far as saying there is no overnight fix for this, like changing a couple parts on an existing package.But, if there was it probably would have already been done. If you want things to improve, show up with your car that isn't going to win races and have some fun. Particularly, you should really enjoy it when you finish way higher than your car is capable of in the field you are in.
Here's my opinion,
When you talk SCCA and F2Ks it's purely two different things. The only place F2ks killed SCCA FC is on the east coast. Most other places that were affected are purely down to multiple other reasons, the economy, interest, too many formula car options and also the many other options SCCA offers such as Miata, which has huge growth.
In the central division the numbers are a joke and I'm not entirely sure how you would fix it. That being said I even noticed the FF numbers were lower than normal, so maybe its just an off year.
On the car and motor front I think the package is fine. The cars available are plenty and there will be more options when the USF2000 series ends that model this year. I think the car prices will drop but that just means opportunity for new drivers.
I have been contemplating another FC car as they are still the best bang for the buck. Just hoping there is a place to run.
Brian
Agree. But not easy to reverse as you stated, my .02 of course. Guys like myself aren't just going to show up because you said so...
Nailed it as did Tim. Costs are out of freakin control if you really want to be competitive and that needs to be reeled in. Need to get back to the days of the 90's/early 2000's when a guy rolled up with a couple friends or dad and son and had fun. This prep shop/tractor trailer show is ridiculous. The "average" guy who has money to blow on something like this will not be attracted to it. I have plenty of friends who spend decent money racing in NASA with BMW's, they have a blast and some great racing.
-Nick
Out west here the Pacific 2000 group is working pretty well. And, it's a mixture of 'tractor-trailer show' and guys like me. I'm on the cheap end with an open trailer and a pinto car.
At Laguna in June after the last race, one of the drivers from the 'tractor-trailer' group came over (as I was packing up) and said hi. He asked me if I had fun and then commented on the grin on my face. Yep, I certainly had fun. My car isn't so competitive (and neither am I) and I don't race as much as the others.
But, I accept the fact that there will always be racers with more money and I'm glad they are there keeping the class going. They could easily pick the next level. I have a lot of satisfaction in what I'm doing - I'm doing it myself. I solve my own problems. There's challenges and victories in that.
8 sessions that weekend. Finished every one. Improved every session. I call that a win.
With the exception of a few drivers who have a good chance at the next level, is there any other reason to do this other than the fun-factor?
So, is this the old schoolyard complaint where someone takes the ball and goes home because they didn't get their way? I don't like the rules so I'm going home...
Is that why cars are sitting?
Whether you play or not, the other will find a way to have fun......
The price to play went up, and there are fewer people who can afford that price tag.
It's pretty simple econ 101. Used 20 year old VD Zetecs are coming down in price, but are still well above what the same pinto powered car was before the Zetec introduction.
When you drive the price of entry up, you will have less people who can afford it. What does a new FC cost? $100k+? A front running used car is $50k. Pretty high price point.
Just yesterday I had a friend ask about road racing. I didn't even get to the cost of the car, or cost to run it, and just the $500-$600 entry fee turned him off immediately and he makes a very good salary. He will go auto-crossing for $45.
lol, nice analogy. It comes down to a cost/value proposition for me and spending the money we are talking about as even a one/two man operation is not a great one. Just the tire bill alone comes to about 3K if you are running the test day, practice day and full weekend. Remember, the 1.5 set/weekend rule does not start until the first Q session, its all open up to that point. This is of course assuming you are there trying to be competitive, not just to have fun as you are, which is fine. But if you want to get something out of the test day and practice sessions, you need good rubber, unless of course you are using this good rubber doing private test days.... which many of us do. Regardless, the tires are being used to set up the car properly and there is really no way around this.
I am not taking any proverbial ball and running home, I am just not going to the ballpark with my bat. The series/class can keep doing what it is doing and not listen to someone like me with feedback but you asked for it and I am providing it. If I just want to go out and have fun to run laps, I will go do regionals on old tires.... but that doesn't seem like much fun to me. And to go to a pro weekend, or even Major, with no intention of being competitive doesn't sound like much fun to me either.
Again, my .02. You asked, I answered, as I have before and falls on deaf ears.
-Nick
Reid and Nick make very valid points but let's be clear. They are describing two very different scenarios. In that I mean Reid is discussing SCCA and Nick is clearly talking F2ks. So as this discussion continues - Which it should, let's be sure to clarify which series we are looking to improve. I think if SCCA is healthy with FC's then the F2ks will also thrive.
You mean the price to play with the latest and greatest. That will never change in any sport. And, the latest and greatest will require more expertise to run thus driving the support cost up...
There will always be something "better" that will cost more.
"The more things change the more they stay the same."
People with the means will always up the ante. My daughter used to do show jumping. Her $35k horse against riders with 2 or 3 $250k horses (and the big rigs, etc). But she was mature enough to accept a 2nd place finish behind a guy that took 3 attempts to best her time as a victory.
No, they don't play fair - they play by the rules....
I used to autocross too. Lots of overhead cost and time for 10 minutes of 'track time'. Ask your friend to compute the per minute cost. It doesn't matter anyway if he's having fun.
Racing is an expensive elitist sport. That's why not everyone does it. Would it be better if there was 100 entries in a class? and you didn't get to run because they limited it to 30?
It'll never get cheaper than it is today.
An honest answer for what you want to do. Everyone's expectations are different....
So, 30 years ago I had a conversation with my wife. She was pissed at me about something she thought I should do. I said, "oh, the problem here is you are disappointed in your expectation that I would do X. You never shared your expectations with me. So, you are really disappointed with yourself, not me."
So, sharing your expectations is part of the solution, but being an active participant and sharing your expectations has much more weight.
Johnny calls you to play ball and hears "blah-blah-blah.... so I'm not coming". You are EXPECTING him to share that with the coach. He tells the coach "nicks not coming".
So, how can we improve the cost/value? I hear you say they are out of control, but I'm not hearing suggested solutions we can take to the coach....
Nick, since you have a car parked, what is it you would change? You mentioned tires but what would you change about them if you were able to? What other changes? I guess relating to F2K but possibly Majors as well since we were asked to be specific.
Steve Bamford
For one, I think there is no reason a SCCA or F2KS weekend needs to be 4 days, that is absurd. Lots of guys, myself included, have businesses to run and families at home. Leaving on a Wednesday night for the track and being gone 2 business days, to return late Sunday night and feel like ass on a 3rd business day (Monday) is not great. And I believe Tim Minor has suggested this already and nobody listened. If you cut out that test day, that would save some money on the tire bill, no test day to pay for, one less night hotel, etc. Probably about 2K right there back in my pocket and I only need to bail on business for one 1 day instead of 2. I will suck it up on Monday like always, pay to play and all that..... I have plenty of ideas if people actually want to listen, as I am sure Tim will as well.
-Nick
Only The first weekend, Road Atlanta, had a test day. Watkins didn't, VIR didn't, Mid Ohio didn't. Pittsburgh I don't believe does & New Jersey doesn't. Actually Jersey has a test day on the Friday & practice on Saturday before qualifying so actually Jersey can be a two day event if you want.
I believe they did listen if this is what you & others asked for. I believe a test day for the first event of the season is worth it. I didn't do any winter events this year at all & first event was Road Atlanta. No testing prior at all.
Steve Bamford
Very true, but if new cars today are prohibitively expensive (meaning there are <5 new cars a year coming in), what will the used market be in 10 years? If prices keep going up, all you will have is Scott Tucker racing himself.
And yes, I was referring to SCCA per the title of the thread. F2K seems to be doing well considering the completion with the Anderson series and USF4. Those who used to run SCCA, and could afford to do so have went to F2K. Those who could not afford F2k stayed SCCA until that became to expensive for those left from the exodus.
If I could put a $5000 engine in this RFR, run for four 45 minute sessions (three hours overall) on the track over Saturday and Sunday, and have at least four other cars in my class, I'd attend.
This is how it was with my old Pinto's in late 90's and early 2000's, except we had 12-15 car fields in NER.
Maybe a $5000 Kent in this RFR will more likely get me there, but in FF.
You guys running $40K or higher Zetec cars aren't listening. I'd want to run at half that price, which is the NFWC goal with the mid and later year Pintos. Maybe that's why they have success! You guys lament the fact of really low car counts, but you want others to join you at your venues and at your price points. As someone here said, Econ 101 plays, and we won't show up.
Valid points but no one is stopping Pinto guys from coming out. Being competitive with Zetec might be the bigger issue. If that is the case then let's discuss.
Steve Bamford
Yes, Steve; the schedule mostly without testing was specifically done due to responses in our poll last fall. Some people have told us they like it this way, others have complained bitterly that we cut out the test days. That's par for the course.
I think cost containment may be a big factor from reading these posts. I'm not sure how far we can go given the prevailing situation. Tires are about at the limit unless we go to a street tire (and there are unintended consequences to that). I think we have faster, longer lived tires now than we've had in my memory and therefore lower tire bills than in past years. The cost of track rental has mushroomed in the last five years and some tracks (WGI and RAt for example) may be approaching limits that neither Club nor F2K can afford. Transportation, hotels, etc. have all crept up in price. The cost of motors has not stayed constant, either. The concept of the crate Zetec is long gone; we're back to re-builds. (One shouldn't forget the engine wars of the '90s that the Zetec was supposed to fix where everyone at the pointy end carried at least one spare motor and rebuilds were done twice a season) How does one change that?
The cost of a new JOWR car has dropped by anywhere from 20% to 40% in the last year depending on one's perspective: Its just not a new FC or new FF anymore, its a F4 and its derivatives. That's reality and it is with us whether we like it or not. The question becomes how to deal with it in both Club and F2K. The price point of the F4 is clearly affecting the pricing of used FC's if not the sale of them. However, the F4 should NOT be influencing whether someone races their car today. It will affect the future landscape, for sure.
What is interesting is a used FC Zetec has not changed much in price in the last 12 or so years. I bought my first one in 2005 for about $33K which was the going rate for one needing some work. Seems to me I can do the same thing today for not much more. These cars are still competitive in both F2K and the Majors- that alone is amazing.
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In memory of Joe Stimola and Glenn Phillips
Rob- You're asking for a $5000 motor that will run 3 hours a weekend (and how many weekends?). Do they really exist in FC or FF? I think one might once you get past the initial costs. I bet a junk yard Zetec would last at least 3 or 4 weekends and cost considerably less. Pintos won't last with that kind of run rate without some rules help.
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In memory of Joe Stimola and Glenn Phillips
I think you'll see the price of Zetec formula cars coming down in the next few months as the USF2000 cars start to flood the market and the lack of current cars selling become deals are out there. It's never good for the owners but it will become a buyers market which will hopefully help out guys wanting to buy a car.
IMHO zetecs should be in the range of 30k or under. But either way realize that most Vandiemens are 15-16 years old and will more than likely need a good rebuild.
Nice to know about the schedule change, Steve and Bob. Shame on me for not looking into it but I know it had been mentioned before and nothing ever happened, glad to hear it has been done. Certainly helps someone like me!
Bob, I think the next thing in there which sticks out to me as an issue is the motor/Zetec. It is something we have all talked about and I am not sure what the solution is. These things were supposed to be bulletproof and they are not any longer.
Bob, for example NASA only runs Sat/Sunday. No test day, no practice, just show up and Q1/race1, Q2/race2, go home. I guess you have already caught flak for cutting the test day but would shortening the weekend to just that lower the track rental cost and in turn, lower entry fees? That would lower everything and limit all competitors to only 1.5 sets of tires each weekend, no sets for practice day either. If one wants to test, let them test or go to regional/major weekends to burn up tires/track.
-Nick
Practice on Friday is optional, you are not required to run. The series offers exactly what you proposed Q1/R1 on Saturday and Q2/R2 on Sunday. Will you be competitive without running on Friday? Who knows? If Friday is eliminated would it help? The serious guys will just go run the other events and still have a track time advantage just at a greater cost. No easy answers, but good discussion.Bob, for example NASA only runs Sat/Sunday. No test day, no practice, just show up and Q1/race1, Q2/race2, go home. I guess you have already caught flack for cutting the test day but would shortening the weekend to just that lower the track rental cost and in turn, lower entry fees? That would lower everything and limit all competitors to only 1.5 sets of tires each weekend, no sets for practice day either. If one wants to test, let them test or go to regional/major weekends to burn up tires/track.
John
Nick,
Jersey is set up to run that way as I understand it.
Yes there is a track test day offered on the Friday but you are not obligated to do it. I believe some want it & others don't so you have a choice. I understand this isn't exactly what you mean but at least is a comprimize for some.
Steve Bamford
Everyone here knows each other. Answer the question , how much gray hair or no hair is in this conversation. The young blood is not coming in. I have run two events this year so far. I ran the regional race at Lime Rock, and the July sprints at Watkins Glen. Everyone knows you can't even do your belts up in the car by yourself. You have to have at least one other person with you to do an event. At both races I had a combination of at least two different people willing to show up at different times to help me. I have had other younger very interested people come and help at different times but it gets old after awhile and they dream about drinking beer on the boat with near naked women and doing other stuff. Last race the July Sprints at WG. For my $500.00 fee, one 15 minute Q session, one 15 minute Q Race, and one 30 minute Race that went off at 4:00 PM Sunday afternoon. I had a 4 hour ride home. I had a blast. I had more fun at both races then I have had in the last couple of years. Ask anyone that knows me, my racing problems over the last couple of years has led me to not even leave my bag in the motel room because then I don't have to go back to get it when something happens. Being an old drag racer I learned how to race yourself and the clock. When the opportunity presented itself to be able to race with someone it was great. back and forth and very clean. Yah don't forget the thousand dollar tire bill either. But that's the price to go racin. Not bashing anyone just want more guys to go racing.
Yeah..... I get that. But if its there and you run Friday, you clearly have an advantage over someone that did not run the practice day. Same goes for test day, etc. Maybe throw out a poll to see if more people would show up if the practice day was gone? That would save a good chunk of money on tires, hotel, fuel and even if you are with a prep shop, one less day for trackside support. No?
I get that people will still test but if its not on that very weekend with the exact track conditions, I think it would be less advantageous.
-Nick
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