Oil tank? Or something else?

[mikeism]

Hi folks...

Blown ZX10R engine. Asssessing various possible causes, including my oil tank. Current oil tank and plumbing worked fine for several years with Honda power; thus, the ZX10R issue has me puzzled and looking at various things.

I have limited space. The 6 x 15 inch oil cylinder just barely fits in the car.

Does anybody have experience with off-the-shelf tanks like...

1) The Peterson 08-0003? I can't find schematics so I don't know how it is structured inside...
http://www.petersonfluidsys.com/tank_stand.html


2) The Mocal Easy Clean? 6.5 inch diameter by 14 in tall. 2-piece design it will fit in my car. This link has a schematic of the tank...
http://www.jjcraceandrally.com/oval/...dry-sump-tanks

3) Any other thoughts. You know... the helpful kind... ??


Mike

[S Lathrop]

I am going to suggest that the issue is baffles in the engine or in the tank. Given that you did not have the issue with the Honda, then I would look at the engine oil pan and crank case baffles.

The oil pump may be such that sucking air on either the scavenge side or pressure side will cause both sides of the pump to cavitate if it happens for any length of time.

When we first did the Citation FB's we designed our own pans partly because the pan is a structural member in the car and because nothing out at the time was up to the task

A FB generates big G forces under braking and lateral acceleration. As such, you need a really good dry sump system in all details.

What you need in the oil tank is baffling that stops the oil from climbing the walls under braking and later acceleration. I have added baffles by simply cutting a slit in the side of the tank, sliding flat metal into the slot and welding.

[Lotus7]

Is your car weight-challenged? Could you use an Accusump pressure system?

[sccadsr31]

What year Kawasaki?
Tell us about the oil pan and the dry sump system. Who made the pieces?
Do you have an oil pressure light? When does it come on?
David

[David Ferguson]

I think some of the motorcycle-engine drysump systems aren't correctly engineered. I have heard that an engine builder can watch the oil level drop more than you would expect when the engine is rev'ed on the dyno. Sounds to me like more oil is winding up in the engine and the scavenge sections/pump aren't getting it out.

I know our 2L engines needed to have external drain tubes from the valve train area down to the sump, they also had well developed crank scrapers to remove the oil and direct it to the scavenge pickup.

I understand the Radical dry-sump system for the Hayabusa has several in-engine baffles to keep oil from entering the clutch area during hard cornering.

I think the first thing I would do is increase the oil capacity of your tank, if you can't keep the dry-sump "drier".

[ghickman]

Mike
Is this a BRD dry sump system? If it is I'd get advice from Jesse.

My experience with the Gen 4 ZX10R dry sump engines indicates that a minimum of 8 qts of oil is needed and 10 is better. Baffling is extremely critical.

This is why I went the wet sump direction on my Gen 4 ZX10R. Took a while to figure out.

Are your overheating issues taken care of now? Make sure that there isn't a contributing factor here with high oil temps.

[vandiemen]

Are you logging oil pressure in your data system? Does the logged oil pressure data confirm a loss of oil pressure?

Oil pressure should be logged at 100 hz minimum, so you can detect transient pressure problems. Look thru the data and see if there are patterns (i.e. particular corners or parts of the track where oil pressure dips). That will begin to give you clues as to where the problem may lie inside the engine and/or oil system.

I've made a 5 quart oil tank work successfully with ZX10R engines, you don't need 8 or 10 quarts if the tank is designed well. Your tank is 7.3 quarts total volume and you're running 5.5 quarts of oil in it. I can't tell from your description if the tank is adequately designed for your application.

You could undoubtedly run more oil in the tank. I've seen tanks that are extremely sensitive to oil level -- 1 inch change in oil level can be the difference between transient starvation and rock solid oil pressure all around the track. Increase the oil level inside the tank and see how much purges into the catch tank. You may find that you can run a lot more oil in the tank without it puking and it may solve any transient pressure problems (this has been my experience many times). A really cheap solution!

But before you do anything you should check the logged data. It may not be an oil pressure problem. Make sure you're solving the right problem.

[mikeism]

Mike
Is this a BRD dry sump system? If it is I'd get advice from Jesse.

My experience with the Gen 4 ZX10R dry sump engines indicates that a minimum of 8 qts of oil is needed and 10 is better. Baffling is extremely critical.

This is why I went the wet sump direction on my Gen 4 ZX10R. Took a while to figure out.

Are your overheating issues taken care of now? Make sure that there isn't a contributing factor here with high oil temps.

Hi Gary...

Yes BRD and Jesse has been very helpful. Nicholas too.

Thanks for your observations on my water temp problem at Mid-Ohio. The coolant temps have been fine after I made the swirl pot changes you suggested.

Thanks for your comments on oil capacity and baffling.


Mike

[mikeism]

Thanks for all the suggestions and questions folks. Very helpful.

Good question about oil pressure lights David... I can program my dash to flash alerts at three different levels. I'm gong reconfig the lights so that all 3 come on at higher psi points so I get an earlier indication of trouble. I'm going to raise my dash up a bit too... my gloves sometimes block the alert lights on the dash.

Thanks for the tank capacity calcs vandiemen. When I change the oil I put a little over 3 quarts in the crankcase and oil cooler, and I fill the tank quite a bit over the baffle. Almost 8 quarts. Simple tank; one baffle. Data shows some low oil pressures at various points. Oil pressure and water temps were fine shortly before the blow, but I think the intermittent low pressures had already done progressive bearing damage.

Thanks again to all... I've got some ideas to pursue. I'm intent on not blowing a 3rd engine

Mke

[DARREN NEEDLES]

Mike check out drysump.com, We can custom build a oil tank to suit your needs. Also check out spintric.com ( Oil / Air separator ) .

[sccadsr31]

What brand of DA system? How about posting a couple of screen shots. Are the low pressures on l or r or under braking, combination of braking and cornering?
I would suggest putting a red LED up high in your line of sight so there is no looking down to see it, no way to not see it.
I get them from SumerBrightLed.com and this is the one I use https://www.superbrightleds.com/more...ed-light/1494/
they are very inexpensive and can be seen in daylight.
Mine is about 1in down in a tube which is black, if that comes on I cannot miss it and immediately shut down the engine.

In 2007 when I was driving Bob Fox's car we lost 3 engines before figuring out the damage was being inflicted coming out of the corner after high braking g loads. The oil pressure never got low enough to tun on the light. After the second engine we took the CDS system out of my car and installed it in Bob's. Found many places where pressure was under 30psi and RPM was over 10K. That was a wet sump however.

David