Actual data
There was a survey sent around that a number of us I assume answered. It addressed a number of the points that seem to be the heart of the heat above.
I have asked previously for the results of this survey to be published, and to date have seen nothing.
Does anyone know where this data is?
I would gladly summarize the data, if I can get my hands on the raw data.
Maybe that way we can cool off this left coast, right coast stuff.
The Canadian F1200 series also uses the Falkens with great success.Originally Posted by Hardingfv32
We have no reason to try to tell others about this other than the fact that we are having a ball with close racing and not spending a fortune, so we want others to experience the same thing. That's it. Why anyone would resist and reject a proven plan to save a class is beyond me. Obviously, some are happy with dwindling numbers and astronomical tire bills. That's fine. That's what the status quo has proven to get them. There is no point in trying to educate someone who doesn't want to be educated. They can continue to debate the issue and deny the success while we enjoy the sport as it was intended to be.
That is the standard quality of The Challenge Cup Series participant responses. You want the rest of the FV community to listen to you when you make such pointless remarks? You are not capable of proving your position with the facts you have available.
The Challenge Cup Series has been around a few years... why has no one where else in the US tried to develop a FV street radial series? There is absolutely no interest outside this small niche in the NE. You guys are all talk and complaining. It shows up in the quality of your series.
Brian
Solution to Spec Tire Debate
Rude comments from someone I'd rather not participate with in a race weekend. The challenge cup series will continue to run with FRP at SCCA pro events have affordable race entries, 20 car fields, run at world renound facility's, have so much track time you can't wait for the checkered, oh yeah almost forgot not spend a dime on tires. Keep your non racing and negative rude opinion to your self and the Challenge cup will continue to go forward.
#donthateappreciate
Visit www.challengecupseires.com for our non exciting schedule.
Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
How quickly you forget that I am the one who administered the spec tire survey a couple years ago, paid the money to sign up for the survey service out of my own pocket and wrote the letter to the CRB with the results. It was the first thing I did when I joined the FVAHC.
It is baffling how you turn everything into an us against them argument. Totally ridiculous and uncalled for. I can only imagine what you are like trying to talk with about politics or religion.
Just because 70% of the class doesn't agree with you and wants to go a different direction, you cry conspiracy. News flash: there is no conspiracy. We landed on the moon, there are no aliens at Roswell, Han shot first and 70% of the class wants a slick tire on existing rims to be the spec tire.
Life really is that simple.
Stephen Saslow
"...and 70% of the class wants a slick tire on existing rims to be the spec tire"
I keep seeing the 70% number. Not arguing with it, but where do you find this?
Has the SCCA published the survey result? Maybe I missed it or don't remember.
I'm not sure if the full results were published, but that is the number that was given to us on the committee by the CRB. It is also the same percentage that voted for it in the survey results from a couple years back. I provided a link to those results earlier in this thread. Look for the link I posted with formcarregiatry in the URL.
Stephen Saslow
Thanks, I remember that survey, just wanted to see the results of the current one. It might help put to rest some of the mistrust. Not doubting what you were told.
Wow Brian. The limited success of the Challenge Cup Series is based on our first year racing on radials only. So i think we should give it a little more time, two see what people think. Meanwhile Im with Greg. You are lacking in Knowledge when it comes to what you are writing. You really don't get it, don't think you will. Have you run on radials yet?
Last edited by Dean Curtis; 07.11.16 at 7:47 AM. Reason: missed word
This is like a Trump and Clinton supporters show...hilarious!!!!
I have noticed that if you scroll all the way down to the bottom you can see who all is currently on this page and it can be interesting just to see who is reading the thread.
I talked to Dean after the Mid Ohio race and I think he said someone from SCCA Pro was there on Sunday and was completely immersed following the race, hopefully he will tell others about what he saw.
I only raced in the Challenge Cup once last year and plan to do it again this year once again and I can tell you that most racers just switch the tires and just have a blast racing. Yes if you want to work on the perfect set up go ahead since it is probably what you like to do in the first place. So saying people have invested time in setting up the car for the slick and won't want to change anything is BS since they constantly are chasing the perfect set up for whatever reason they give you.
The reason for a radial tire is a considerable cost reduction and the up side is close racing and having fun. That said the people who race at the front at national level really don't want close race they just want to win and try to out set up their fellow competitor or out spend. So until you realize the survival of club racing is a numbers game and that getting more competitors in existing classes is what is needed you are fitting a losing battle.
I stopped because I was burnt out after 30 plus years and finally notice how much I was saving by not racing. I don't have any plans to come back but will do in once and I while if someone lends me a car but I have no interest in buying a car and spending all of the money to race SCCA, I have other things to do that are extremely cheaper than racing.
So just let the class grow and what do you have to worry about if some of the cars are on an alternate tire racing at the back?
Ed
I talked to a LONG time FV competitor recently. He is a staunch supporter of the class and knows everything there is to know about it, even more than Brian Harding. In his opinion, the only way for FV to survive and become healthy again is to get the numbers up enough to get their own FV/FST Run Group. More FV's were going silent because of dangerous and no fun grouping than any other reason. He was for ANYTHING that would solve this problem-building FST numbers, Spec tires, alternate tires, NO tires, whatever.
Harding keeps saying that if the Falken wheel/tire deal as an ALTERNATE option is so great, why haven't all the other Regions developed a series for it? Because it's too much freaking trouble that's why. Calling meetings, taking poles, voting, changing rules, nobody has the time. Also, nobody is going to the Falken setup and then drive around the country trying to find a Region that allows it. As other long time FV competitors on here have said, not making a National rule change that could possibly boost participation and not effect the National/Runoff level competitors status quo is astonishing. There is something else going on here, because common sense ain't it.
Just think, somebody could tell their wife "yeah I bought a race car but at least I'll only need one set of tires for the rest of my life!"
Last edited by Garry Sharp; 07.11.16 at 2:05 PM.
The reason we created the Challenge Cup series was to mimic the success and pros of the Canadian F1200 series. Think about what the F1200 series is; a local series with very good competition and cheap tires. Local meaning Ontario only, it's specific to the needs and wants of racers in Ontario. We as a group of racers in the Northeast US created a series that met our needs, with very good competition, cheap tires and focused participation. Also we wanted a series that could allow us to race in Ontario and them to race with us to promote more participation in both areas. Our efforts were never meant to change FV racing in the whole country, we all realize there are too many agendas in each part of the country to make that worthwhile.
I don't really think most folks think negatively about your program. The only difference on the west coast Ed, is that we learned a long time ago not to bite on his silly rants. That's what he wants.
We did our own spec tire thing in SF with the Racers so we get it. The tire issue wasn't really the reason our fields have shrunk. There's plenty of reasons and theories for the decline to go around but "blue collar" racing, like the middle class is shrinking.
The above post is for reference only and your results may vary. This post is not intended to reflect the views and opinions of SCCA and should not be considered an analysis or opinion of the rules written in the GCR. thanks, Brian McCarthy, BOD area 9.
You know Brian M you are correct about the decline and kind of paralleling it to the blue collar worker. My last year of racing in the nationals and the runoffs, 2011 averaged me somewhere at 2K or more per weekend, yes that is correct, 2K for 1 hour and 45 minutes of driving. For those who know me, that is a lot of money for me and if I didn't do everything myself except motors that amount would have been higher.
I guess the problem is that some people just plan refuse to change anything except what they want to change for their benefit. It is kind of funny when you listen to the idea that we can't change FV or it will hurt the class. Really? Unless you are completely new to FV you will know that the class has changed so much from it's origins you would never notice that current cars are supposed to be the same as the original cars.
Is there an quick fix? No there isn't, but like I said earlier let those with an alternate tire wheel package on the track at the same time and if using a street tire they will be no challenge for those with deep pockets on slicks who want to go that route. The cost of racing is in my opinion already to high even before you factor in the outlandish tire cost that simply aren't there with a street tire.
So I just don't realize what the problem is with allowing a street tire car on the track with those wishing to spend their money on slicks other than they just don't want to find out how much more fun those other guys are having. Stating the rules is BS because as everyone knows, rules are made to be changed and have already changed the cars from what the founding fathers though was a good way to promote cheap racing.
Ed
To follow up on what Ed said, if you're racing and NOT having fun because the costs are a worry to you, then why not run a street tire. Racing is racing and it shouldn't matter if
you're running 3 seconds a lap slower if you have 20 other vee's on the track with you to
race! We we're at the M-O FRP race and saw great racing with the street radial guys who
had several groups racing each other in close quarters and it was fun to watch. I bet each one of them had fun and when I asked a driver in his late sixties how much longer he was going to race, he said "When it's no longer fun and I had a blast today"!
Mark
round black things
IF i had not just been "gifted"a F2000 car to refurbish i would be running the F1200 series which runs in both Canada and the USA
my decision would have been largely based on the SPEC Falken TIRE
i started racing as a teenager in Southern Ontario and i know i NEVER spent more than fifty bucks a weekend (1969 US dollars)....................the sport as it is now is TOO F$CKING EXPENSIVE for the common working man
i say forget the CRB and recommend everyone who cannot spend the thousand or so extra per event to just dial back and run an affordable common tire
Stupid Question
What would happen to a racer, or group of racers, if they showed up at a Major's event with Falken tires? I know according to the rules they could be D.Q.'d but would they still be allowed to run? If they were allowed to run doesn't that eliminate the need to change the rules & cover what everyone is looking for here?
Steve Bamford
Stupider Question
Why would you want to spend $700 for a Majors entry fee instead of $350-450 for a regional event?
Or just run the actual series with single class racing?
Stephen Saslow
Perhaps the Major event fits the individuals schedule & location better?
Why not allow them to choose? Anyway, my question was more would they be allowed on track? The likely hood of them winning a $10.00 trophy is slim if other cars show up on slicks but even if they did what is the hard in allowing them to run?
Last edited by Steve Bamford; 07.12.16 at 11:31 AM.
Steve Bamford
This would be an easy answer if we hadn't asked for a spec tire. A letter to the CRB asking for a wider rim and probably to allow a radial tire, would have been needed and a positive vote from the CRB. With a spec tire, it's a different issue, especially with Majors. No major company would be willing to deal with being a spec tire unless the agreement was an exclusive one. Majors are different by design to exclude regional classes so alternative tires are not part of national class rules in virtually all national classes. Enough drivers have expressed a desire not to make the grouping any more diverse and are willing to pay a Majors premium for that. Back when SCCA held rationals extensively, both regional and national racers complained about the mix.
The above post is for reference only and your results may vary. This post is not intended to reflect the views and opinions of SCCA and should not be considered an analysis or opinion of the rules written in the GCR. thanks, Brian McCarthy, BOD area 9.
So what would happen when the driver showed up on Falkens and tried to go on the track? As far as I would see it he would be dq'd but still allowed to race. Or would he not be allowed on track? As far as passing a safety inspection I believe the car would pass wouldn't it? I guess I could go to a Major myself in a friends FV & find out.
Steve Bamford
if the event was a regional i guess the car would be FS?
Lacking a protest, why would he be DQ'd?
I guess I meant with a protest that is the worst that could happen isn't it?
Steve Bamford
GCR Pg 53
5.12.3. Chief Steward
GCR Pg 54
C. Powers of the Chief Steward
The Chief Steward may:
1. Disqualify a driver or an ineligible car.
5. At his discretion and without necessarily receiving a request to do so, order (or request the SOM order) disassembly and inspection of any entered car to determine whether it complies with the GCR.
GCR Pg 55
8. Prevent an ineligible car from competing.
Peter Olivola
(polivola@gmail.com)
The power is there, but the question remains, why would it happen without a protest?
Matt King
FV19 Citation XTC-41
CenDiv-Milwaukee
KEEP THE KINK!
Should an observed non compliant situation brought to the attention of the CS/RD be ignored?
The book answer is it should not. The competitor and region financial friendly answer might be to let it go. How lucky do you feel?
Peter Olivola
(polivola@gmail.com)
To answer the question of running a radial at a majors - why would you do that and run 3 seconds slower while there are tons on 4 and 5 cycle tires around where you could run 1 second slower? This is why radials did not take off in the 90's when we tried to get Club Vee off the ground in the NE. And that was when you could run SCCA, EMRA and in Canada on the same tires - Yokahamas at the time. Just too many free or cheap used slicks around.
Now to put things in perspective. Look at these 5 groups:
Challenge Cup - ~ 20 cars running on Falkens
FST - 10 - 15 cars running on hard FF tires (I know there are more cars but this is race average)
Majors 15 - 20 cars running on current slicks
MW VINTAGE - 25 to 30 cars running Hoosier vintage tires
NE Regional - 12 -18 cars running on new slicks, used slicks, American Racers and we don't have a problem with people with Street Radials (just let us get it in the sups)
So 5 groups with cars of the same lineage, running 4.5 different tires
By the numbers - we should be running the vintage tire - fits stock wheels, last a whole season, works in the rain...... What am I missing?
If the SCCA ( probably meaning Hoosier) comes up with a tire that lasts 20 heat cycles, is easy to mount with hand equipment and costs around $600 a set ( I am guessing closer to $700) then that should be good enough. Yes you will need rains (groove the spec tire should be fine) and there will be people who throw them away after 6 heat cycles - I say "throw them my way".
That would bring more cars out and as that happens we would not have to ask for our own group - we could demand it.
Remember this is not the only problem FV faces, but let's solve one at a time.
Chris Z
Can you show me the average car count for Majors where there is 15 - 20 FV cars other then one weekend? I am looking for average turn out numbers at the Majors.
Just trying to keep things in perspective.
To answer your question why not use 5 or 6 session old tires, why would I want to run 1 or so second slower, don't I still have to pay for mounting & dismounting my existing tires? Won't that add up to more then the cost of one set of Falkens over time? Also won't I be at a disatvantage to other guys on slicks and not equal to someone on Falkens? So who am I racing against at that point? My goal would be to have 2 or more cars at a Major to run against head to head on equal tires. Yes I maybe out there on my own at the start but it seems SCCA is not willing to make changes to the GCR at this point without some taking steps like showing up with Falkens and perhaps being asked to leave. If 10 Challenge Cup individuals showed up then a point might be made.
Steve Bamford
Have to assume nobody really cares if it's a street radial or a bias ply race tire, the draw of the Falken tire is low cost and long life cycle. Those qualities already exist in tire that fits our wheels and is compliant per our rules, the American Racer. As mentioned the vintage tire is also pretty close to the same criteria.
My question is if we already have an option that meets the same criteria as the Falkens, how come nobody is showing up at Majors on the American Racer?
Bill,
It's because they're 3-4 seconds a lap slower and don't last 2 -3 years like the Falkens!
Mark
I specifically stated that the tires have to be easy to mount (the American Racers can be mounted with a pair of tire spoons!) which the current Hoosiers cannot. Everyone I have spoken to has a friend in a tire shop and the the only time you pay is if you are at the track (and $80 to flip 4 tires is outrageous, but understandable)
In the old days (and not too long ago) a $40. Harbor Freight tire machine and you could flip or mount 4 tires in less than a half hour. You could balance them by backing off the brakes on the front when the heavy part went to the bottom. That is what FV used to be, when people could work on their own car.
Also, Majors were set up to qualify for the Runoffs. Even when they were "National" you ran them to step up your game and run against the best - I cannot see running Majors just for the fun of it - you eventually will get in the way of someone.
And I deny none of the advantages of the Falkens, I just spent too many years and too many $ promoting the idea and now go with the flow. In the words of Billy Joel:
"I believe I've passed the age of consciousness and righteous rage,
I've found that just surviving was a noble fight
I once believed in causes too, had my pointless point of view
Life went on no matter who was wrong or right."
ChrisZ
PS - I find it interesting that Dietmar's company is Quixote Racing - there must be an inside joke there.
Don Quixote
Chris thanks for your reply but you missed answering my question about the number of cars you listed participating on average at the Majors. You list 15-20 FV cars at the Major events. I don't believe that is close to the average number.
Steve Bamford
" I don't believe that is close to the average number."
No, not even close.
For the SE there were 76 FV entries in 2015 with 6 races = <13 per event
For the NE there were 80 FV entries in 2015 with 6 races = <14 per event
It goes slightly downhill from there in the remaining regions.
All regions, 301 FV entries in 2015 with 26 races = <12 per event
Contrast that with Southeast SRF/SRF3 with 270 entries at 45 per event. We might ask why is SRF so popular Vs FV?
2015 data:
https://www.crbscca.com/staffAdmin/p....php?year=2015
2016 and link to other tears data:
http://www.scca.com/pages/majors-participation-2
Steve,
Sorry, I was doing some research. 15 - 20 is too high on a National basis.
In some races in the Northeast and Midwest we did see car counts over 15 up to 22.
And other events it was a low of 6 to 8 and other tracks were 10 - 12.
From what I can get from the SCCA there were 139 entrants across all 5 regions, when you take out duplicates you have 82 drivers who have so far run in Majors this year.
I believe there are only a few more to go. With the Runoffs at Mid Ohio, I would think that the west coast will be down this year. I wonder if Indianapolis will bring more cars out in 2017.
Edit - I personally was going to run Watkins, but after looking at the entry fee, the number of sessions and the unknown of a new track surface, I felt it would use up my car and tires, (and money) that I have budgeted for this year. I am planning to run at least 3 or 4 more races, and half of what I have budgeted would have been used up for 1 race.
On the other hand, I could use the argument that FST averages 2 cars per race since it is mostly a Midwest, very few FSTs run anywhere else. Or that the challenge cup numbers are wrong because they run a limited number of events. In the NE regionals we are promoting certain races (not boycotting others) to see if this will help. By pushing this, our open wheel driving experience and inviting Challenge cup drivers, it is possible that we might see 30 cars + in a few weeks. Some races in the NE (we have too many) will only see 4 - 5 cars, but you have to look at that through the filter of what we are doing.
Re SRF - I will make a guess - but after spending $15k to upgrade and the fact that older cars are still eligible for a year or 2, that this has become the rent-a-race car series. I am seeing less cars run by owners and more run by race shops, so this fits the arrive and drive community. When Spec Racer started, I feel it was a direct attack at FV and FF and the cars were 50% CSR and 50% private owners. While I feel there are still a lot of private owners, they are no longer maintaining their own cars. After stealing drivers from FV and FF, it has moved to a different level, and we never got those drivers back.
Chris Z
Last edited by FVRacer21; 07.12.16 at 11:11 PM. Reason: Add personal comment
Well the Challenge Cup Series had an average car count of 16 last year. We have new members joining the organization and adding to the SCCA membership. The NE region has a great program that is drawing new members as well. This should be the focus. Not making more rules. Or creating conflict. So Steve bring your friends car to Thompson on July 22nd and race with the Challenge Cup and the NE region racing on slicks. Then check out a majors race. Ill join Ya.
Forget about a spec tire folks. It's more trouble then its worth. Its just kicking the can down the road. Let the tire manufacturers do their best to keep developing their technology. The radial tire provides equal competition for three seasons at a cost of $800.00. The replacement cost of a tire is $100.00. This formula should be a great draw to increase entries in the class. Great when you're ready for majors and the increased budget involved. Go get em!! I'm looking to Indy!!
Why would you want to run the vintage tire? I have been helping a local guy with his very old Beach and the vintage tire has not been available for a year or more and cost around $1000 a set. Plus they don't last a year and if run hard like at a national you can be sure they won't last very long.
Yes having to buy another wheel to do the Falkins is no fun but the wheel situation for stock wheels has been an issue for years and will only get worse. The plus to the Falkins is you only need 4 tires and wheels and can carry as little as 1 spare. When I raced the nationals I had 3 sets of slicks and 1 set of rains which meant a lot of moving tires in and out of the trailer and stored between races in plastic bags. You can let the street tires sit outside if you want to.
For those brave souls who have tried the Challenge Cup series I don't think anyone has been disappointed and after last years race in Dermot's BRD where I really didn't even bother with tire pressure to adjust the handling I had a blast and was running at the front after not racing a vee for 4 years. So if there was a street tire that fit the old vee wheels and was affordable that could be an option but then you have the availability of wheels again.
Ed
popularity of SRF
believe it or not .....some drivers do not like or are afraid of open wheel cars
NER Events
It's in the Suups that radial tire (Challenge Cup) cars are allowed to race at all New England Region events.
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