Solution to Spec Tire Debate

[bobs66440]

Run the Challenge Cup on Falken Radials, enjoy large field single class racing, YEARS on a set of tires, great super close racing, awesome people, parties with free food, cash and product giveaways. Have fun again. Problem solved.

[problemchild]

But some people like buying tires and being mobile chicanes for FFs and F6s ..... some must like doing it as part of Formula Alphabet. If you don't consider that a problem, why seek a solution.

By the various SCCA boards and committees refusing to acknowledge and discuss my alternate tire proposal, it means that FV racers wishing to use affordable long-lasting street tires are forced to run with non-SCCA groups or organize their own regional events. Somehow, they are threatened by the concept and think they can suppress it with such tactics. Delaying the inevitable just hastens the demise and makes revival that more difficult in the future. They have learned nothing in 50+ years.

[WNYVeeRacer]

First Post Nailed It !

[provamo]

only need ONE TIRE for a spare!

[bobs66440]

only need ONE TIRE for a spare!

Exactly...and no separate rain tires!

[Steve Bamford]

I have no dog in this hunt so my opinion means little here but I would suggest that if enough of you write letters based on what you are posting you have a better chance of getting some type of support then by doing nothing. It will take a lot of letters to even make Greg's no brainer proposal a possibility but why not try?

[bobs66440]

I have no dog in this hunt so my opinion means little here but I would suggest that if enough of you write letters based on what you are posting you have a better chance of getting some type of support then by doing nothing. It will take a lot of letters to even make Greg's no brainer proposal a possibility but why not try?

Agreed. If we can get everyone on the same page and be more concerned about value for the dollar and quality of competition than lap times (approx. 3-5 sec. diff) then the fields will be huge again. No one is going to notice 3-5 seconds per lap when they are in a heated battle swapping positions many times per lap in a pack with 5-6 or more other cars for an entire race. This is common. Watch some of the videos from Mid Ohio posted on Youtube. If that's not what it's all about, I don't know what is.

[budawe]

I understand that over 70% of the respondents to the survey wanted a more durable slick and rejected the alternative wheel and DOT tire option. That is the same response achieved a few years ago when the AD HOC committee did their survey. Accordingly, the CRB and Racing department of the national staff, is pursuing that option. For the 20% who want the DOT option will be able to continue to use the regional path.

[bobs66440]

I understand that over 70% of the respondents to the survey wanted a more durable slick and rejected the alternative wheel and DOT tire option. That is the same response achieved a few years ago when the AD HOC committee did their survey. Accordingly, the CRB and Racing department of the national staff, is pursuing that option. For the 20% who want the DOT option will be able to continue to use the regional path.

Well, there you have it. When all else fails, give the people what they want. I would have assumed that everyone wants to save money, but hey, what do I know. I'm totally ok with separate series. Variety is the spice of life.

[fvhopeful]

Bob
Nailed it !!
the only thing I might add is we compete on world class tracks.
For more information challengecupseries.com

[BLS]

I understand that over 70% of the respondents to the survey wanted a more durable slick and rejected the alternative wheel and DOT tire option.

Just curious, do you know how many responses there were?

[grapefarmeral]

I need to look back at those posts, but I thought it was 70% wanted a spec/alternate tire not specifically a more durable slick..

[grapefarmeral]

This is something that I've posted a few times and it still make sense, but then again this if FV....



A few years ago (yes this tire crap has been happening for a while) I bought a set of Falkens and went to Canada. I get miffed at those that talk endlessly about how radials won't work and they're not proper tires for a Vee and yet have never raced or even driven on a set. I went to Mosport, a track I'd never run on, tires I'd never raced on and had a ball. First race without any changes to my car I finished third. The weekend from that point went down hill as I was hit twice and really screwed up the car. I've been back since and the fun hasn't subsided. In my opinion it's the way to go..

Some facts:
The first weekend I was there I took durometer readings on my new tires, a year old set, a two year old set and a three year old set. Durometer readings were about the same. The tires seem to get better the more you use them.

About 2 years ago there was a thread about tires and manifolds and one prominent Vee driver stated that if you amortize a $1200-1300 manifold over 10 years the cost was minimal. So I decided to figure the difference between US slicks and the Falkens using that same 10 year time. There was also talk claiming that National drivers bought new tires every other weekend...go watch a Majors and see how many stickers there are every weekend.. But using the every other weekend for buying slicks and a three year span for radials, as proven by the Canadians, I made the comparison. The best way was to use the Canadian season, as it's finite. Six weekends , Basically one qualifying session and three races. Which means that there are four session per weekend x 6 weekends = 24 on track sessions. Since at that time a Nationals weekend was usually two practice sessions and one race. So 3 sessions divided into 24 = 8 weekends. so that means in ten years you will race 80 weekends and buy 40 sets of tires. I had just bought a set of slicks around that time and they were $860.. $860 x 40 = $34400. I had also purchased the Falken around the same time to go to Canada; tire cost $350.US delivered to my door. I purposely left out mounting and balancing, but that would tilt the figures even more towards radials. You would buy 4.33 sets of radials in that 10 year time period for a cost of $1515.... That's only a savings of $33,000 in that ten year period... Oh and the added bonus of copying the Canadians is that in that period of time you get an additional 100 races...

So does the Challenge series make sense..? Do I need to answer that..?


P.S. Don't show these figures to your wife or girlfriend

[smsazzy]

I need to look back at those posts, but I thought it was 70% wanted a spec/alternate tire not specifically a more durable slick..

No, it was specifically a spec slick tire. 70%. 69.5% I believe was the number a couple years back. Back then our survey was ignored by the CRB. Funny to me, since their own survey this year had the exact same result within 1%.

[problemchild]

I need to look back at those posts, but I thought it was 70% wanted a spec/alternate tire not specifically a more durable slick..

It was that more than 2/3rds wanted some form of spec tire. Because that split it into thirds for spec slick, spec street tire, and status quo, they chose to apply the conclusion that the survey was inconclusive and no action was necessary.

Regardless, that was some time ago. The numbers have shifted since that time, but the attitude of our fearless leadership not so much.

[smsazzy]

It was that more than 2/3rds wanted some form of spec tire. Because that split it into thirds for spec slick, spec street tire, and status quo, they chose to apply the conclusion that the survey was inconclusive and no action was necessary.

Regardless, that was some time ago. The numbers have shifted since that time, but the attitude of our fearless leadership not so much.

Incorrect. It was 70% in favor of a spec SLICK tire that fit existing rims.

It is clear from both surveys that the vast majority are not interested in a street style of tire or switching rims.

[smsazzy]

http://formcarregistry.com/interchan...b6e60f94451df1

Here are the original results.

The latest were eerily similar, although the questions were worded differently.

[Rolling Stone]

Here you all go again!!!!!!!

[problemchild]

Our fearless leadership just ignores this one with 60% in favor of a Falken or similar tire.
http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/show...375#post482375

Must be because it is eerily dissimilar.

[smsazzy]

Our fearless leadership just ignores this one with 60% in favor of a Falken or similar tire.
http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/show...375#post482375

Must be because it is eerily dissimilar.

It had 33 votes Greg. Not even comparable.

[problemchild]

It had 33 votes Greg. Not even comparable.

I don't consider 55 FV racer respondents as insignificant. I don't consider the 60% of those 55 irrelevant, or the 20 racers who showed up at Mid-Ohio last weekend. How many FV races in North America will have 20 entries this year ..... aside from the Mosport and Mid-Ohio Challenge cup event, and the Runoffs?

You dig up surveys from the past to support your version. I do not have time to dig for the old survey that showed the 2/3rds wanted any spec tire, so I found a recent one that is certainly more relevant to 2016 anyway. You will discount it because you don't like the obvious wants of the Apexspeed community. It really does not matter because SCCA will set up the process so only one supplier will play their game, which is what they want. What the FV community really wants is insignificant. As I said, they can race with other SCCA groups or organize regional events. Everybody can be happy!

[problemchild]

The SCCA BOD was told that having 14 F4 cars at Mid-Ohio was an overwhelming success. Do you think they were told that there were 20 FVs there on tires that SCCA refuses to allow as an alternate tire in Club Racing?

Probably not mentioned ........ Not relevant.

[smsazzy]

Sorry Greg, but the most recent SCCA survey said the same thing. Sent out to hundreds of people. The 33 people that responded favorably to your survey is a MUCH smaller sample size. Ironically, there were 35 people who supported either a DOT tire or a Vintage-like treaded race tire on the old survey. Looks like those same 35 people voted in the survey you reference also. Always great to see consistency.

Feel free to keep screaming conspiracy. Feel free to keep making wild accusations of marginalizing the folks running in your series. But the vast majority have spoken in favor of a different alternative.

And yes, 30+ SCCA FVs ran at Mid-O for the majors race last month.

Fact of the matter is, I'm glad your Falken series is doing well. Great to see. But the majority of the class by a 7-3 margin apparently are not for a DOT Falken tire.

[problemchild]

Sorry Greg, but the most recent SCCA survey said the same thing. Sent out to hundreds of people. The 33 people that responded favorably to your survey is a MUCH smaller sample size. Ironically, there were 35 people who supported either a DOT tire or a Vintage-like treaded race tire on the old survey. Looks like those same 35 people voted in the survey you reference also. Always great to see consistency.

Feel free to keep screaming conspiracy. Feel free to keep making wild accusations of marginalizing the folks running in your series. But the vast majority have spoken in favor of a different alternative.

And yes, 30+ SCCA FVs ran at Mid-O for the majors race last month.

Fact of the matter is, I'm glad your Falken series is doing well. Great to see. But the majority of the class by a 7-3 margin apparently are not for a DOT Falken tire.

I am glad you can dismiss so many people with such arrogance.
Who needs 30%-60%of the community?

So, even if your skewed numbers were correct, (an SCCA poll, really?), why not let the 30% run their economical tire of choice as an alternate tire at the back? What harm could it possibly do to be inclusive of a portion of the community that ranges from 30-60% depending on whose asking? No trophies. No special points. Just inclusive of more people, and potential people.

[smsazzy]

I give up Greg. You can't please everyone. By your logic we should ignore the 70%.

I'm done with this conversation.

[problemchild]

I give up Greg. You can't please everyone. By your logic we should ignore the 70%.

Where have you been? I have been pushing for spec tires in FV for 36 years. In the past few years, it has been apparent that a spec tire was imminent. At that point, my agenda changed to creating the best transition that would disenfranchise the fewest FV racers. There is clearly two groups that each have a strong preference for the two choices ..... and a middle group that don't care which course gets chosen. The two groups are fighting to convince the middle group, and that will determine the ultimate course. I have never pushed for one choice, but am trying to find a compromise that will not disenfranchise a third of the community, as the FF spec tire did..

Letting Hoosier build a spec tire for the more elite crowd, and allowing the Falken tire as an alternate tire, is the best solution. The only down side I can see is that we may have to move some FFs, CFs, and F5-600s into other race groups. Do you think the FV drivers at the Glen Majors would have preferred to be sharing the track with a Cup Challenge field of Falken tired cars, to 25 FFs and F5-600s. The FV power brokers seem more concerned that letting FV racers use Falkens will lead to some fiendish conclusion. The SCCA people buried my alternate tire proposal and refused to discuss it or receive input. They believe that the disenfranchised will just cave in, find another couple grand per season, and grow the class. I cannot be that optimistic. We need to implement a compromise that will be inclusive to every FV racer and let them spend their resources on entry fees and not tires.

[budawe]

Our data indicates there are about 300 active vees across the country. It's challenging to know the exact number from simple participation numbers since most folks run more than one event. We average just over 200 vee entries in the majors program and just short of 500 in the regionals. A simple math average is around 10 per majors and 4 to 5 per regional. We all know that the NE and SE lead all averages. I have noticed that the western conference, we average about 8 cars in the majors and virtually nothing in regionals.

An effort was made with the survey to make sure that regional folks were polled as well as Majors racers. Not to cast any opinions since I don't know how many respondents were regional only racers, but SCCA did try to reach out to all vee folks. Not sure anyone can say only the elite participated either. The 107 respondents was fairly good given survey results conducted by businesses average less. Like Stephen said, the results pretty much sum up the overall preferences of the class.

What most folks don't know is that in order to have a spec tire, SCCA prohibits contingencies and special deals. That means 1st and second place Majors finishers just lost some serious support. For some, it meant thousands of dollars a year. I personally was one of those folks who chose to support the classes wishes even though it likely cost me serious money.

I am not part of the formal process but have heard some rumors about tire testing going on with a more durable compound on the existing tire. Not surprisingly, it might be a bit slower, and that was something the survey respondents said they did not want to happen. So we'll just have to wait until 2017 and accept what the class has asked for.

The conversations about the spec tires that were given to FF,SRF & SM from Hoosier have received positive reviews from the competitors. All have had to develop their cars to the new tire but have had improved durability performance and actually had some time improvements as well. Vee tires will be a bit more challenging. We're at the 60 compound already so we wont be moving away from super soft compounds like FF did.

There's no point talking about relative number of races per tire since the street DOT have a clear advantage. But I will say that rotating the current slicks on the rim will extend their life considerably. So will having a well tuned chassis. I spend about 25% of my budget on tires but would imagine that folks that pay to have most work done on their cars will likely have a lower percentage but spend more in total than i do.

[Dean Curtis]

I'd just like to say. That as a Challenge Cup Series member that our goals are not to change SCCA racing. Our mission is to provide an affordable alternative for you to race your car. The benefits are great for FV racers, whether just starting out or bringing your car back out of the garage. We as a class have lost too many cars because of the rising expenses. I personally enjoy the the fact that IT's not how much you spend during the weekend,but how well you have raced that weekend. Having equal tires has tightened the fields and provided some of the best FV racing I have been involved with in years. The slick tire drivers need to debate their own concerns. Trying to mix in the radial debate doesn't make sense to the people who just love to race. I think they are two separate things.

[fvhopeful]

Having been with Challenge Cup from it inception.
I need to chime in here , it has been a thrill to watch it
grow from the meger beginnings. Pocono there was Ray , Dean , Steve and myself.
, the most recent Mid Ohio event over twenty entries, I am sure no one left there disappointed.
We don't want to change the world. Just want to have a place to race and have fun.
Personally if it wasn't for the falkens tires I would not be able to afford to race .
So if anyone is interested you are more than welcome to join us .

Cheers
Desmond Ennis

Hitch Guide

[budawe]

Folks, I understand completely. Not every program fits everyone. That's why we allow so much flexibility in the regional programs. Regions all over the country are having a very challenging time financially. Allowing them as much flexibility makes perfect sense. The same applies to classes.

[problemchild]

What most folks don't know is that in order to have a spec tire, SCCA prohibits contingencies and special deals. That means 1st and second place Majors finishers just lost some serious support. For some, it meant thousands of dollars a year. I personally was one of those folks who chose to support the classes wishes even though it likely cost me serious money..

Wow. We should be thankful that elite FV drivers will no longer be given tires paid for by regular FV drivers. Thankyou.

[problemchild]

There's no point talking about relative number of races per tire since the street DOT have a clear advantage. .

But that is the reason to talk about it.

[problemchild]

But I will say that rotating the current slicks on the rim will extend their life considerably.

At about $80-$100 a set. FV racing is supposed to be low-cost.

[problemchild]

That's why we allow so much flexibility in the regional programs.

"Not my job". Let Dean, Ray, and gang provide a place for low cost FV racing.

[bobs66440]

I understand polls and percentages. But the only number that really matters is the number of cars that show up at any given event. Are the people voting regular competitors? There's no way to know I suppose. If the majors are only drawing an average of 10 cars and the regionals 0-6, then that speaks volumes to me. Where are the polled majority? Maybe I'm missing something, but if the radial spec tire class consistently draws a larger field than a slick class then I would say that is the preferred majority choice.

It seems to me, if you want an accurate poll, they should hand out voting slips to competing racers at each event with their registration packet. This way you know you are getting feedback from target racers, the only vote that really matters.

[BLS]

"Are the people voting regular competitors?"

IIRC, the SCCA poll was sent to people that had registered for FV races.

[problemchild]

Progress has been made. The Challenge Cup Series is awesome. Who would have thought, only 5 years ago, that there would be low cost FV racing on spec radial tires in the US with 20 car fields? Who would have thought that a FV spec tire was coming and that a FF spec tire was already in place? People get tired of rehashing the same topics, but it is that continual push that leads to change. Lisa Noble and Brian McCarthy are not going to wake up one morning and decide to worry about regular FV racers and start rebuilding FV from the bottom up. Brian is very clear that he does not feel that that is his job. I disagree, but people need to keep pushing to return FV to what it was meant to be, and not the perverse entity that it became. Smazzy and Harding were laughing and telling me that FV would never have spec tires on this forum only a few years ago, and now they are politicking to make sure it happens, while some of us are pushing for an even better tire package that will help more people. If more people can organize more Challenge Cup type racing, and we keep pushing to return FV to its original values, we can turn this around. Nice job!

[Hardingfv32]

The whole argument for the use of radial tires is based on the limited success of the The Challenge Cup Series. You cannot isolate the use of radials from other factors that went into the organization of the Cup Series. Your cause and affect simply cannot be substantiated as presented.

1) If this is such a great idea.... why has it not been duplicated anywhere else? I would say it toke a lot more the an inexpensive tire package to develop the Series.

2) The San Francisco Region had a very successful Regional series using a spec AR tire. After over a decade in use the Regional series has completely died. Is this a clear example where a cost effective spec tire failed to keep the class going?

Continuing to raise the success of the The Challenge Cup Series is pointless. Very few FV competitors outside the NE know that it exists. The whole concept of the Series fails to resinate with the vast majority of FV competitors.

Brian

[problemchild]

If Harding, Smazzy, and Budawe really believed that nobody other than a few rogue Northeast guys wanted to use Falkens, then it would be a complete non-issue to allow use of Falkens as an alternate tire. It would just fade away like Shelby Can-Am, the SR version of FE, and dozens of other cars and alternative rule sets, that have been allowed within the existing class rules in an effort to grow club racing.
Clearly, they are afraid that too many people will embrace the virtual "tire bill free" concept and grow the class outside of their "vision".

One could say. "Those Falkens are a waste of time. Nobody wants them, so we should discourage their use, make those rogue racers fight to get acceptance locally, and throw up every political roadblock available we can to make sure they don't grow Nationally."

Or one could say, " Lets do everything we can to help these guys spread their message and include them as much as possible. SCCA and FV need entries and we should do everything we can to keep them racing in SCCA events and building the FV class. If it does not work out, no harm done".

[fvhopeful]

Ouch I can't stop biting my lip.
Sitting in my little bubble in the North East .
Thank God I am not out west having to put up with BH negativism.
Every word you utter is a downer.
Do us all a flavor , reframe from any dialog with reference to
Challenge Cup , as you know nothing about it.
Greg made you a offer to come out east and try it , you blantantly turned him down,
So unless you educate yourself don't rain on our party.
Thanks again for your Debbi Downer attitude!