Originally Posted by tgaluardi
How many typically show up for a regional weekend?
How many typically show up for a regional weekend?
Stephen Saslow
When I am able to get back on track, it will be with the Challenge Cup. I might do a couple of majors but honestly for me it's all about the fun factor. So whatever tire the SCCA chooses is fine with me as long as here in the NE we can run our Falkens.
G.
G. Brian Metcalf
72 AutoD MK4
1991 Mysterian M2
2014 ALR73 FV/FST
The upcoming Thompson race will be the first time the CHALLENGE CUP Cars will race with the NE group as a series. I don't believe anyone has run them in NE yet as their race tire. Im looking forward to the weekend.
There is one word that keeps emerging here-Fun. It is Sports Car CLUB of America. It's supposed to be a HOBBY-like golf or tennis except a lot more expensive. Some guys have the budget, know how, talent. etc. and want to win races and get to the Runoffs. That's great but soon that's all that will be left, especially in the "Blue Collar" classes. The "Fun Crowd" has all but disappeared because of cost and grouping. Get the hobbyist racer back out by reducing cost and the time and effort it takes to participate (1 set of tires) and the run group issue will probably take care of itself.
There is one word that keeps emerging here-Fun. It is Sports Car CLUB of America. It's supposed to be a HOBBY-like golf or tennis except a lot more expensive. Some guys have the budget, know how, talent. etc. and want to win races and get to the Runoffs. That's great but soon that's all that will be left, especially in the "Blue Collar" classes. The "Fun Crowd" has all but disappeared because of cost and grouping. Get the hobbyist racer back out by reducing cost and the time and effort it takes to participate (1 set of tires) and the run group issue will probably take care of itself.
That's what the guys have done in the challenge cup we are not asking anyone to change and to answer some other questions the regions are hurting to keep entries up if a group of guys show up, I am pretty sure they are not going to turn you away at a regional not so sure about a majors. The guys here in the NE are having a good time racing I am not sure why this series keeps being brought up we are a small group working together so we have a place to race and try and let the class get new members, The NEFV series is also growing they had 20 cars at Watkins glen this past weekend its the guys who want to see the sport move on. Remember the challenge cup is not asking anyone to use the falken tire as the spec tire. Now lets take the average age of guys and gals that will attend the runoffs and compare them to the age group of guys running in the challenge cup I think you will find were your next generation of formula vee drivers are coming from. Everyone opinion matters lets just keep that in mind and not have any negativity towards each other on this forum. If any one would like to try out the falkens I have a set you can try. Hope to see everyone soon.
Ray Carmody
The question has been asked .. more than once. WHY NOT let anyone run a "non-compliant tire" (e.g. Falken radial) at a Majors event if it's 'below par' compared to a current slick. The reason I was given quite a few years ago (when HQ sometimes actually answered emailed questions) was that ... *IF* there is an incident between a COMPLIANT car and a NON compliant car during the race .. there are ISSUES about whether the NON compliant car should have been on the track. Especially as it might relate to POINTS and Runoffs Qualification criteria.
Personally, I could live with that since it is a considerably LESS likely scenario that a non compliant vee running a 'sub par' tire would affect my race than an FF or F5 (closing at some unbelievable speed from behind). In 99.9% of the cases, *I* would be the "car in charge" of making (stupid?) decisions about whether or not to initiate a pass at a BAD place on the track. Not so much in the current Majors situation where the poor FV has virtually NO CONTROL over the potential crashes with faster classes. However, there is the case that FF and F5 would have an even higher closing rate (giving them more situations to make .. decisions) for cars on a slower tire.
I still think that RISK MANAGEMENT (if there is such a thing in SCCA) should rule here. On track closing rates in excess of 30 MPH should NOT BE ALLOWED in mixed groups .. AT ALL. The risk is just too high for CLUB RACING.
This all comes back down to TOO MANY CLASSES in SCCA. FF and F5 have migrated towards each other while FV has been left behind in the speed equation. Regardless of the FACT that "WE" (FV) STARTED this whole mess back in 1963 - FIRST OPEN WHEEL CLASS in SCCA! (and STILL the largest in a high percentage of Majors races.)
Steve, FV80
Racing since '73 - FV since '77
It seems to me that the major problem is the class groupings. I am aware of a number of cars in the garage for that reason only! The tire issue is important , but parked cars use no tires. Is there some way to solve this and make FV racing fun again?
Bill
Bill,
The Challenge Group using the Falken tires have had their own run group every time
I've seen them run, so that's no longer a problem for them. It does remain a problem
for the vee's running the Major's program, and I witnessed the problem this past weekend at Gingerman were 500's/ 600's and FF's created several issue's.
Mark
This is why the Major program is the only option remaining for the FV guys in the SF Region. Running with 11 FC's that are 30+ MPH faster on the straights and being lapped 3 times in a 25 minute race just isn't fun. It is also the leading reason that most FV's have left the sport altogether or moved on to a different class. It's not about tire cost because we had a great spec tire program. People want quality track time and good racing. Both are no longer available for FV in the SF Regional program.
Scott
I am in agreement with Ray, Dean and Des - the Challenge Cup was not devised to leverage the SCCA into changing to a spec tire, it was created as a platform for competitors in the Ohio/PA/NY area who were burnt out on spending beaucoup $ on tires and who wanted to bring back more of the past fun and camaraderie to the class. On all these levels I believe it has been an overwhelming success.
This has not happened by chance - many, many hours have been put in by the BOD and many volunteers - my hat is off to all of them! They have created a template that others could use in creating their own similar series if so desired.
I sort of feel sorry for those other Vee drivers who are located too far outside the Series' reach to experience it. The lack of having to worry about forking over huge amounts of $ for tires to feel like you have a chance to be competitive is a huge financial and psychological relief (I bought my Falkens used and they now have nearly 4 seasons on them, but managed seventh fastest lap at M.O. on Sun.), and the intense racing, quality trophies, cookouts and world class web site are just the icing on the cake.
Long may the Challenge Cup's flag wave!
Thanks Mark!
Problem in the SE is we don't have such a series that I know of.
Bill,
Talk to Des, Dean, Ray and others & start the S.E. series that shadows what has been established here in the Northeast (OH, PA, NY, Conn.) etc...
Mark
Thanks! Definitely worth a try! Got to do something before someone really has a bad outcome!
Just need to get a group together and work on that.
Bill
Southeast Challenge Cup
I'm in for a southeast version of the challenge cup! I live a lot closer to most southeast tracks now. Maybe we can have a north vs south battle at the ARRC some time?
This is how it starts. This could potentially turn into a great alternative for many across the country. If others see how successful it is I don't see why it would not continue to grow. But as mentioned, it requires lots of work and dedication from the leading members. We are fortunate to have a great group of guys and gals here that make it great. That is key.
I too want Challenge Cup in the SE. I'll even try to make some NE trips just to compete once I get my RR license.I'm in for a southeast version of the challenge cup! I live a lot closer to most southeast tracks now. Maybe we can have a north vs south battle at the ARRC some time
I just purchased a FV and the driving requirement was to keep costs as low as possible.
My car was a great bargain. I also wanted a low "tow tax" so I'm towing with a small vehicle that gets 35+ mpg while towing an inexpensive open trailer. It doubles as my comfortable, 47 mpg daily driver and family car during the 357 days of the year I'm not using it to tow a race car.
The VW bug platform looks to me to be fairly rugged.
The glaring out of family data point is the tire expense. And man do I hate having to deal with three sets of tires.
I'm more than happy to explore bringing Challenge Cup to the SE.
Previous people have mentioned having an addition to the sups to include radial street tires. Can someone point me to an example of the text for this? I want to propose this for my up coming events.
I understand why someone would want to run on the fastest tire possible. What I don't understand is why anyone would care if I wanted a slower setup. I'll keep reading and learning and try to figure out why this topic is so contentious.
Welcome to formula vees 2dog.
The primary use for supps is to spell out local situations and depart from the GCR (our rule book.) Generally speaking, these departures are approved for regional use by the stewards and are legal.
There are many examples of supplemental regulations and you can find many examples from around the country. Go to motorsportsreg. they handle registration for a lot of events in SCCA. Use the search function to find SCCA events and then using their calendar, pick out an event and visit the page. Most times within "event info" you will find schedules and supps.
Maybe one of guys could connect you to a site that spells out the optional tire for the northeast. There is some language in SF region for using the American Racer as well. SFRSCCA.COM. You'll need some comrades if you want to change your regions options.
In the meantime, check around your area for folks who want to sell used tires. I spent several years running "slightly used" tires from national guys and they're a fine option.
Issues become contentious when people take things personal. It takes a lot of time and energy to be part of the solution and lots of folks just don't have the time. I respect folks like Ray Carmody, Steven Davis and others who dedicate a lot of time to make the class better. You'll notice, they're alway positive on the forums as well. Good luck with your vee.
The above post is for reference only and your results may vary. This post is not intended to reflect the views and opinions of SCCA and should not be considered an analysis or opinion of the rules written in the GCR. thanks, Brian McCarthy, BOD area 9.
And so it grows.....I'm in for a southeast version of the challenge cup! I live a lot closer to most southeast tracks now. Maybe we can have a north vs south battle at the ARRC some time
G.
G. Brian Metcalf
72 AutoD MK4
1991 Mysterian M2
2014 ALR73 FV/FST
Thanks budawe, I'll do some research. Checking the sups from other events is a great idea. I'm active in the local SCCA and will talk to the steward to see what can be done. I'd like to make our events friendly to FVCC and I'm more than willing to work toward developing a local contingent. I'll talk with my club and see what options I have.
And, I'm all about positive posts on the forums. I'm a big fan of win-win and have had a lot of success in my life crafting these scenarios.
My cousin came over from the NASCAR/ circle track circuit last year, his first road race at Road Atlanta, and again at Barber Motorsports Park. He said he was amazed at how fun it was, and how friendly everyone was. Not the stressful, negative, cut throat experience he was used to. He's coming back to Barber again this year because he had such a good time.
That's the SCCA club racing I want to promote. For me it's not about winning, it's about getting out on the track and having a fun and safe time with my friends... at a price point I can afford. Gotta get my kids through college, and I'm the driver, crew chief and pit crew one-man show.
2dogs you are not alone. Other SE region Formula Vee drivers have expressed interest in the Challenge Cup Series coming south. I for one am in favor 100%. Stay in touch with us and lets see what we can put on the schedule next year. Barber/Atlanta/VIR/Kershaw/Summit Point?? IF the membership votes to race at that track. We will add it to the schedule. A good reason to be a member. Your vote counts.
I think it's probably time to ask, how many SE Division drivers would be interested in an affordable option for racing their FV. If the Se driver numbers can supplement the drivers that can't make the long tow south. I don't see any reason this can't work.
The other way is to make the wheel and tire change. Race whatever open formula car group they have for you. Bring a bunch of friends with the same idea. I think the class is FS, they run with the FV group. The bottom line is that FV racing is still some of the best racing in the country. You'er in a good tribe.
I'd recommend Roebling Road and possibly Carolina Motorsports Park for consideration as well. I've never been to either, but guys in my club have and Roebling is a favorite, and good comments coming from CMP.
It also seems like the slicks/Runoff crowd would be lobbying for the alternate tire big time considering it could give them their own Run Group with the additional cars that made that possible running behind them out of the way.
FWIW, I might be considered to be one of the "slicks/Runoff crowd", but I submitted a request to the CRB several months ago when this all started (again) to ALLOW any treaded tire on any rim that did not weigh less than the existing rims and fit with no other modifications. This was to be allowed at ANY SCCA event in FV, including Majors. Apparently, although it was 'acknowledged', my submission was ignored, or at least "not seriously considered". This was in line with Greg Rice's submission.
I agree that letting another FV group that CHOOSES to run a slower tire at the back would increase overall FV numbers to the benefit of the entire class. Apparently, sadly, SCCA must not consider that a viable objective. That might lead to a much larger group of FV .. possibly leading to a need for yet another run group .. ?? Just not enough time in the day? Not sure....
Steve, FV80
Racing since '73 - FV since '77
Southeast Challenge Cup
For everyone that is interested in some southeast challenge cup races, send me or Dean or Ray a private message with your email. We'll get you added onto the email distribution for the challenge cup series and send you an invite to our next conference call (6/26/16 7:30pm eastern time) so you can join in and hear the planning that goes into an event.
Our original goal was to get more people racing and to all go to the same events so we could have our own run group. We'd love to add to the great group we've got so far.
Welcome to the club! My tow setup is pretty similar to your's. Only 21-24 mpg though. I was looking at the registration for Barber on August 27-28 and there is a FV registered for the TT on Sunday, is that you?
I'm with Chris. Join in and check it out. Our call in number is 641-715-3580. The pass code is 292-965. Join the call and see what it's all about. Or better yet join the Challenge Cup Series, and be a part of the decision making process. With your membership, comes the ability to vote on the direction that we proceed as an organization. The cost of membership is $100.00, and the membership form can be found at www.challengecupseries.com We appreciate everyone's input, when it comes to keeping FV racing the affordable class it was designed to be. Thanks. Join the call. Dean
A" WORKING Class" Hero is something to be
Chris, 2dogs is the Vee entered on Sunday. I'll be adding my name soon for Sunday only at this time since I am one of the event leaders.
This is an old topic but I will start it again. Catch 22. Not enough cars in the wings N Things to have 2 run groups but some drivers do not come because of it. Couple that with trying to give everybody as much track time as possible. What do you do? Makes a Race Chair's head spin. Catch 22!
Currently, Barber has one formula car group basically due to the low entries we have seen over the past years. There is room in the daily schedule to add a 6th race group (i.e., split up the Wings N Things). Somewhat easy to accomplish particularly if we can put the 2 formula car groups into one qualifying session.
In order to create both a 6th race group and a 6th qualifying session, time would have to be taken out of the qualifying sessions and also from the TT groups.
The TT groups provide practice time for the club racers (cannot afford a Friday at Barber) and brings in the TT drivers. It has worked well for the past 3 years. Frankly, without the TT sessions the event would be unaffordable and not be held.
Schedulewise, both options are achievable. Can we get enough entries to make this happen? The drivers need to vote with their entries. Help us solve the problem?
As an aside, I have run my older DSR/P2 car with the FA, FB, CSR, P1, etc for years. Have always been 8-10 seconds a lap slower, cannot really see the FAs catch me (blue flags are hit or miss), and they are 30-50 MPH faster. I know I will get lapped late in the race. Always have to watch out during qual for the faster cars. I appreciate what the FVs have to go thru.
Craig Farr
2006 Stohr WF1 P2
FARROUT Racing
I don't subscribe to this opinion, but I am going to guess SCCA ignored it because FV runs with FF/F500 and to make the FVs even slower would be dangerous. 2-3 seconds might not seem like much, but with the already fairly high speed differential to widen that gap would be a good reason to not allow slower FVs on track. Like I said, not my opinion, but from an FF perspective I could see many making this a reason to not allow it.
SM and SRF are the only classes to have their own run groups. Unless you can get 30+ FVs out there consistently at every large Major, you won't get your own run group and even then it's unlikely.
Don't look to SCCA to solve, or allow you to solve, your FV issues.
Last edited by reidhazelton; 07.19.16 at 2:28 PM.
18 FV's and 12 C Cup entries for Thompson next weekend.
Could this be considered an accurate representation of where/how NE FV competitors stand on the subject of slicks vs radials?
Is there still doubt about why SCCA is going with a slick tire?
Just letting the 'known' facts do my talking.
Brian
Yep, that's me. I plan to work Saturday and drive Sunday. This assumes I can get the few little things fixed that my tech inspection revealed. I don't think it will be an issue though, pretty minor stuff.
The extra mpg I am getting from my tow rig are at the cost of all the environments I am killing with my cheating tdi.
Just to add
Unfortunately the RAL event at Thompson is a Friday/Saturday event which impacted the decision
Of some competitors to make the long tow for one day.
But I am looking forward to share the track with such a large field .
Cheers
Desmond
HITCH GUIDE
"Could this be considered an accurate representation of where/how NE FV competitors stand on the subject of slicks vs radials? "
Brian, no. One race does not accurately represent anything. Nor does the decision by a group to be on slicks mean they do not also prefer everyone have the opportunity to run the radial.
I'll tell you what it what it does say, there are 30 FV's at an event instead of 18 because of an alternate tire option.
Up here in conference, the FVs run in group six with the sports racers and the fast FL cars, not in group three with the FCs and FFs and FMs. That causes very high closing speeds when the stohrs and amacs catch us - but I personally like that because they are here and gone very fast and there's very little messing about waiting for a CF to get around us on the straight or worse, in the corners. The SRs get around us quickly and are gone in a flash - for another three laps, then they're back and gone again.
Group 6 is also novice open wheel class and in the last race, we had a couple novices in FCs, one was fast - so he was around and gone fast, cool. The other was slow because, well he's a novice, but so slow that the lead FV (not me) caught him and passed him in the corners only for him to pass the FV on the straight, wait, repeat. We've all seen that before with slower drivers and it's just fine as long as everyone behaves, which they typically do in group six.
Blue flagging in conference is excellent in my opinionand very important to the vees running against sports racers because the closure rates are high and they can show up out of nowhere in a flash, like Tom Hamilton in his SR that is nuclear powered I believe, turning 1:19's at Spokane!
Also, I make a point to talk to every driver in my group and tell them that if they don't see me point them by, it simply means I don't see them, or I'm going to just hold my line, same line as yours typically, so go around, but I might not know you're there. Some fast guys have been burned by the point by, so I just do it so they know I know they're there.
I think the sports racers in my group know us vee guys well enough to know what we're going to do and we try not to get in their way. If Boggs shows up in my mirror with that black Merloy on his tail and I'm all alone, I'll move off the line and let them race by.
If I'm duking it out with another vee, those SR drivers are very patient and wait until we get through the corners before they blow by us.
So, in my opinion, I don't want to be in the FF/FC group because it's crowded and not enough speed difference to keep everyone from getting into each other's race. I like it the way it is, slow vees with fast SRs.
Brian you little pot stirrer you.....
Looks to me there are 30 formula vees , representing 2 countries, 6 states and a whole lotta fun going to happen. So....... your point is???? When was the last time You RACED in a field of 30 formula vees???? You mock what you do not understand, and never will.
G
G. Brian Metcalf
72 AutoD MK4
1991 Mysterian M2
2014 ALR73 FV/FST
Harding is stuck in some delusional time warp. I'm surprised he hasn't said that Ronald Reagan orThomas Jefferson should be running the SCCA.
Don't worry Bill Bonow. I'll go ahead and ban myself now.
Last edited by Garry Sharp; 07.19.16 at 7:17 PM.
Well said. That sums it up and is all the proof anyone needs.
I bet by the end of the weekend there will be some drivers from the Challenge Cup faster than some of the Vees on slicks. So?
This is a weekend to celebrate FV and to share ideas on how to keep the class strong.
Heck, let's get some vintage Vees to show up - anything to the wings and things out our group (and they appraise what we do)
I think this is going to be a lot of fun.
Chris Z
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