Spec Tire Update

[Hardingfv32]

As stated in Steven Davis's blog.... he used a set of 2017 Hoosier Spec FV tires at the Mid Ohio Major event. Was about 3 sec off the leader's times. Five sessions only so no durability information. He claims to be happy with them relative to performance.

Brian

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

American racers can get within 2 seconds of the Hoosiers at a 40% savings and 15+ heat cycles.

[Hardingfv32]

Pointless information.

Is American Racer willing to meet the SCCA requirements for a class spec tire?

I think not.... they have never responded to any other spec tire RFP before and they are not going to now.

Brian

[problemchild]

American racers can get within 2 seconds of the Hoosiers at a 40% savings and 15+ heat cycles.

That is pointless information.

The President of SCCA has been doing FV business with one tire company for over 25 years, and is uninterested in any other options. The process will be set up so that no other company will comply with the process. It will surely be a good tire, but will continue to be a "consumable" and require buying "consumable" rain tires. It will reduce costs, but not nearly as much as other options. It will perhaps slow the demise of the class slightly, but not stimulate any revival. Open-minded FV racers will have to create their own low-cost Series or continue to fade away.

Same old SCCA story.

[crypt0zink]

As stated in Steven Davis's blog....

Can you provide a link?

Thanks

[BLS]

http://wedgeracing.com/

click the "report on 2016 season" and scroll down to Mid Ohio

[Terry Hanushek]

Brian

Is American Racer willing to meet the SCCA requirements for a class spec tire?

I think not.... they have never responded to any other spec tire RFP before and they are not going to now.

I don't think that you should be so certain. This year AR is the spec tire supplier for Formula Enterprise. There have been a few hiccups getting started but they now are gaining spec tire experience. It will be interesting to see what the future holds ....

Terry

[mikehinkle]

Any news on the cost of the new tires?

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

Any news on the cost of the new tires?

You can pretty much figure on them being the same price or more. There is no competition, thus, no reason to lower the price. If we are really lucky we might get a couple of additional heat cycles out of them.

[bobs66440]

.

[Hardingfv32]

I don't think that you should be so certain. Terry

I have no knowledge of the current FV RFP process. I made a strong statement on hopes of drawing out some more knowledgable information on who might be participating.

Does FE require track support the as required for SM. SRF and FF?

Brian

[Hardingfv32]

You can pretty much figure on them being the same price or more. There is no competition, thus, no reason to lower the price. If we are really lucky we might get a couple of additional heat cycles out of them.

1) The price could be lower with the elimination of the contingency program.

2) Yes they have no competition. We are lucky they are participating in the spec tire process.

3) Using the SM tire with the same compound as a reference... durability should double. That is a 50% reduction in your tire budget.

Brian

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

1) The price could be lower with the elimination of the contingency program.

I am all for that because it helps the entire class, not just a few.

2) Yes they have no competition. We are lucky they are participating in the spec tire process.

3) Using the SM tire with the same compound as a reference... durability should double. That is a 50% reduction in your tire budget.

This would be fantistic.

Brian

Thanks

[mikehinkle]

Is there any new updates on the possibility of a spec tire happening for 2017? I have heard that hoosier did offer some more tires for testing to some of the majors guys ... but can anyone provide a update of the compound and performance?

[FVRacer21]

Is there any new updates on the possibility of a spec tire happening for 2017? I have heard that hoosier did offer some more tires for testing to some of the majors guys ... but can anyone provide a update of the compound and performance?

I have been in contact with directors and members of the new FV board. It seems like the SCCA is dropping the ball (unlike with FF and SRF) and since we (the drivers) "voted" to investigate this, we need to pick up the ball.

ChrisZ

[B Farnham]

I thought that this was for sure happening, what changed?

[FVRacer21]

Nothing changed - it just seems that nothing is happening.

We know a tire was produced, that some people did private testing, and so far, no one has produced a request for product so we can see what we are asking for.

At this time, there are only 3 manufacturers who I feel would have current capability to build a tire and I am told that 2 have verbally backed out.

That does not mean that the procedures used for other classes should not be used.

Extrapolating the results of the survey, and adding in my thoughts of what is possible, here are MY specs:

1. Tire that mounts on a 4 and 4.5" x 15"
2. No significant drop off in performance for 15+ heat cycles
3. Target tread life of 1000 miles
4. Target cost of $600.00
5. Target speed of no more than -3% of current times.

Remove the restriction of no radial tires in FV.

in exchange, the manufacturer would be named spec tire for 3 years, no other tire allowed. No contingency to be paid out, unless voluntary.

If the supplier is unable to produce the tire in its approved form, or maintain supply, then the contract will be voided.

If I were Hoosier, I would dig up info on the VROC TIRE, built in the 90's.

Chris Z

[Hardingfv32]

The compound Hoosier is testing is superior to anything that they would have used in the past relative to the target goals of the FV spec tire.

Having put out the effort to produce the test tire... Hoosier is not going to let this project die.

The SRF spec tire was authorized in the rules about this time of the year. The FF spec tire recommendation was approved by the CRB and sent to the Board for final approval at this time last year. So there is nothing indicating that the FV spec tire is behind schedule.

Brian

[DaveB]

Hopefully it is not a dud like the SCCA Formula Enterprise tire. That would be the end of the class, as a spec tire may still be.

[Hardingfv32]

The FE tire is completely different situation. You have a tire company with limited road racing development experience providing a new tire for a new car/class. This is something that they may have done only 5-6 times before in the companies history. They are learning as they go with the FE spec tire.

With the FV spec tire you have Hoosier with more than two decades of FV tire development experience reconfiguring a tire that has been in use for 5-7 years. They are only change the compound not the construction. They are also using a compound that has been successful on other spec tires.

Brian

[Robbie.Arthur]

As long as the tire is cheap and doesn't drop off considerably then I'd consider the tire to be a success. Hopefully this goes through, if not I'll probably still continue to run the American Racers in my region until I'm forced to pay for competitive rubber to play with the big boys at the Majors

[Matt Clark]

dumb class history question time...
we are currently on a C3000 series Hoosier tire, correct? weren't the speeds like 2 seconds a lap slower before this generation tire? so we are really just going back to the old laptimes (more or less) with somewhat better life?

[mikehinkle]

Does anyone have any specifics on the tire that was available to be tested by the people/teams that were given the chance?

I have heard there was a tire using the spec miata compound. This is the one I would think would be the best for us. Any performance information on this or other compounds that were actually put on cars?

[Hardingfv32]

The lap times barely changed with the switch to the C3000. Hoosier could no longer source the old cord material and had to switch to something different for the C3000. I would say the compound stayed the same. All of the FV tire development for at least the last two decades has been very gradual. Never any 2 sec jumps on the front running cars.

I would say that the SM compound is the only one being tested. It is a new generation compound that Hoosier has had success with. There is not enough time nor profit in this process to start going to multiple compound testing. Hoosier had the slick tire FV market to themselves and did not need to produce a spec tire. Why make things complicated?

Brian

[B Farnham]

Any new updates on this? I would think there would be an announcement soon if it's going to happen for 2017.

[mikehinkle]

I heard a rumor that some of the racers who tested the new spec tire were faster on it then the current tire.
As far as I know there is no longevity testing but since it is the spec miata compound and harder it should last longer.

I would love to hear from some of those guys who were there testing the tire. None of them seem to use ApexSpeed or at least none of them care to get involved in our heated topics =)

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

It's highly unlikely that the spec tire, a harder tire, is going to be faster than the current tire. I believe Steven Davis tested the spec tire and was 2-3 seconds slower than the current tire.

I am totally fine with 2 seconds a lap slower if it doubles the heat cycle life of the tire.

[B Farnham]

So is this just being swept under the rug again? Interesting how FF can make this work but for some reason FV can never figure it out.

[Hardingfv32]

It's highly unlikely that the spec tire, a harder tire, is going to be faster than the current tire.

Actually the spec tire can be just as fast when used with hot track conditions as seen at the New Jersey Major event.

Another driver was found equal performance when the tire was used aggressively.

Unfortunately there was no plan in place to get good test information when the first sample of tires were made available. The new FV CRB subcommittee feels it is necessary to get durability data so the decision was made to wait until later this year to make a decision. Hopefully they have a test plan in place very soon. Maybe someone from the committee can update the FV community.

Brian

[problemchild]

Perhaps I can shed some light.

As most of you know, I have been pushing for a spec FV tire for over 30 years. I consider the lack of such tire a perversity, with equal blame to SCCA bureaucracy, greed by so-called leaders of the community who were tire vendors, and the general apathy of the FV community.

I think we are almost there. While certainly not worth the wait, I think the end result will be good. Hoosier absolutely has the ability to build a 2017 version of the Vrock.

The compound that Hoosier is moving to for their spec tires is quite spectacular. When Hoosier started experimenting with potential compounds for spec tires, they found a compound that wore really well, with reasonable performance in the corners. But they also found that it went faster down the straights, and more than they expected, based on previous experience.

So, for example, the new FF spec tire, is virtually as fast as the previous bias tires, on some days at some tracks. It depends on the configuration of the track, as well as some atmospheric conditions. The decrease in cornering speed, in effect, balances out the gain in straightline performance. At other tracks, the tires are several seconds slower because the cornering decrease dominates the result.

We see similar effects with the Falken tires used in the Challenge cup. At Mosport, they are much closer to racing tire times, but at Watkins Glen there is a much larger difference.

I would be surprised if the new FV tire will be faster very often, but it may be very close at some tracks.

The FF spec tire has surprised even me with the positive effect it has had. To be honest, it saved us virtually nothing in the Pro Series, because we bought the maximum that we are allowed to. If you are content to give away the last few tenths, then you can use the new FF spec tire for 4 or 5 weekends. They are not friendly for the first few laps, but then come in nicely. That is most noticeable in first practice, and effects actual races minimally, as you have the pace lap to bring them to temperature.

I have heard some whining about the tire size and construction of the new FF tire being unfriendly to certain cars, but after seeing the DB1s and DB3s running so well at Sebring, that concern seems irrelevant. Regardless, I don't think that will be a big deal in FV as the tire will be unique the the class. You can do a lot of tuning when your tire bill is reduced dramatically. You can go racing more often. Most significantly, it lets you be more competitive when you do go.

Keep pushing this through! You have to push through the guys who don't want to lose their tire contingencies, those opposed to change, and SCCA bureaucracy, but it is close ...... really, really close!

[grapefarmeral]

I think Greg is spot on, but just to be a PITA I'll play devils advocate. If the spec tire for Formula Vee does remain competitive for 4 or 5 weekends that would be great for the competitors, not so much for Hoosier. Let's assume every major and for that matter every regional competitor makes the tires last 4 or 5 weekends. Wow, wouldn't it be great to have your tire purchases go down by something like 80%. Now from Hoosier's point of view, would management want to create a tire that would see their sales in that market go down 80%. Since Continental AG owns Hoosier I assume there's a bean counter somewhere that looks at sales figures. Continental AG does around $40 Billion in annual sales and if new tires are going to last 4-5 weekends and everyone out there competing buys 1 set a season and just for laughs we use 500 active competitors that means 500 sets of tires. At roughly $850 per set that totals to a whopping $425,000. Which translates into .001125% of Continental's gross. To put that into perspective the average McDonalds grosses around $4 million per year and .001125% works out to $45 dollars or about a dozen Big Macs...

Perhaps Continental AG has bean counters that went to a different school than the ones that work for Goodyear...

[problemchild]

Before it gets to Continental, I think I Hoosier as a pretty good feel for the club racing scene. They understand that selling fewer tires to a healthy class over an extended time period, is better for them than selling more tires now to a life-support class, or having the healthy class buy no tires from them because they are buying cheap street tires that last for 3 years.

The Toyo tires in FF, and Falkens in FV, as a viable option for a demanding customer base, have absolutely affected this situation and prompted Hoosier to do something that could have been done decades ago. As we saw in November, and again last weekend, results that were considered extremely unlikely, perhaps impossible, can actually happen.

People just need to keep pushing, make sure it happens, and happens right!

[grapefarmeral]

Attachment 67059

I came across this ad from a 1967 Sports Car Graphic magazine....Perhaps we should find a recapper.....

[B Farnham]

Bump

[Hardingfv32]

FV Committee/CRB where does the approval of the Hoosier Spec Tire stand?

Brian

[Matt Clark]

has there even been ANY info disseminated to us about what is even going on, other than the few snippets in this thread?

[Drake]

Attachment 67059

I came across this ad from a 1967 Sports Car Graphic magazine....Perhaps we should find a recapper.....

Adjusted for inflation (no pun intended) that's only $80!

[Amon]

The delays and length of time it's taken the SCCA over the years do anything FV related is why I appreciate
the Challenge Cup. You may not agree with their tire selections or possible use of disc brakes, but they seek
out input from the members and make Yes or No votes in a timely fashion that the SCCA can only dream of
due to it's size and levels of management. I really hope a "spec tire" can be agreed upon as I love this class
and have been active in it since 1996. If not, we'll stick to the Challenge Cup and have fun with a great group
of guys and girls!

Mark

1988 Citation
2001 Citation
2010 SB-1