There is a Stohr with a YAC floating around, Used to be owned by a guy up here in WA.
Ironically its way easier and cheaper to get power out of the Duratec's. The YAC motors are port limited due to them originally being designed as a forced induction motor.
I ran one in a 1971 Ford Capri fir a few seasons in vintage. Cooling looking motor!
Linz
Hi Linz thanks for that tidbit of info, also a Stohr huh must have been Al Karlberg haven't seen him in a few years actually next last time I ran my Atlantic and blew a R/P that day he was telling me about that project. Really liked that carbon tubbed Stohr. Also your car is sweet, I will be looking for another project in a few months the NWFC guys have got my juices flowing again. If you bring it to Pacific Raceways let me know very interested in seeing this car, are there more of these chassis available?
Cars
Hey Rick, you are right... that was Mr Karlbergs car. Really nice piece of kit. Whom ever bought it, should polish that thing every night. Really nicely made... pity it was a one off!
Thank you for the compliment on my car.... yes I shall be coming up to Seattle...looking forward to go mix it up wit the FC lads, they need a back marker lol.
I do believe there are some chassis still available. I have Brian Utt phone number, I'll pm you with it. Now that we are all chiming in, it looks like some good info is being shared. Especially on the mystery of tuning. It's not hard, it just has to be done. I meet with Fast Specialties this morning and they are confident we will sort it out. They have ran Norma's with the K20 motor etc, so it shouldn't be a big hurdle.
Cheers
Linz
Russ - I was dissuaded by two things - 1- no chassis dyno operator I could find in the Detroit area would even consider it and - 2- the dyno manufacturers specifically advised not to even consider it at high speed with a 1300# 450hp car on wide slicks. They said just tieing it down sufficiently to get enough grip on relatively small diameter steel rollers and low pressure, soft sidewall slicks was a tire disaster waiting to happen.Originally Posted by RussMcB
I'm glad to hear others have had success with different types of cars. Derek.
Donnie - I agree with you that controlled environments are better but see my previous post as to why a chassis dyno was inappropriate in my case. That made track testing the only available alternative at the time and provided good results. For my education why do you think adjusting a fuel map as the primary (ie. first) parameter based on the actual air/fuel ratio is so terrible? The RPMs were the easiest to determine. The AFR less so due to rapidly changing readout values which it why we went through several iterations. This was all done at WOT. Accetable part throttle mapping was achieved by smoothing the maps later and adjusting MAP-based enrichments by further iterations over the next few race weekends. Very happy with the results. Derek
One final comment - we improved driveability one race weekend by adjusting pedal/throttle ratios at low, mid and high openings. Very worthwhile.
I don't want to argue about it but adjusting the fuel tables is one thing but you have to adjust the ignition settings as weLloyd and sometimes there are other things to go with it. If your doing just fuel tables and a fly by the seat of the pants adjustments you have no baseline or any idea what the car is doing or what kind of improvements your making heck you might even be loosing power. Your AFR's might be correct or in the ball park but you may be loosing power because your not scaling everything else in that part of the map. Yes sometimes a chassis dyno may not be available or someone may not know the software you're using but it's better to have a good baseline and know what's going on and what adjustments need to be made then just guessing.
Because racecar...
Why cant ECU's map themselves? It is 2016 after all
Donnie - I agree with all you have said - I just don't have the sort of car that works on a rolling road chassis dyno - and I'm happy with what I ended up with. The only word you used I would disagree with is "guessing" - I think we were a little more sophisticated than that. We did have a baseline, we kept files of each iteration and we did revert to baseline or a previous iteration a few times.
I believe Linz can achieve what he wants with the same approach.
Neil Armstrong would have loved to have had an iPad and Google Maps in 1969. Derek
Linz - they can. Have you checked with Omex? And do you know what targets to set? Obviously you need to run the O2 sensor all the time and have the ECU in closed loop mode. D
Good idea.... I will contact them. Will it map as well as dyno time?
ECU Tune
Linz
The car looks nice, you did a good job assembling it.
Would you like to come to Wisconsin and put some more together?
I would like to give you some information on the ECU and programing.
The original customers for these cars in China specified the OMEX ECU because they had been using them in some touring cars that they had raced previously, so they had some experience with them.
The one that you have now should have the tune that was used in China running on low octane pump gas. So the car should start and run.
We ran a couple of the cars here in Wisconsin on a chassis dyno using premium pump gas. We did see 205 RWHP with a mild tune.
We did have issues at first with the cars running rich and fouling the spark plugs and needed to make a couple return trips to the tuner to sort it out.
Of the two cars running locally one is running well while the other is still being sorted out.
I am taking a few ECU's back to the tuner and having him load the tune that seems to work the best so that we can use them in other cars. I can swap you out ECU's so you will have something that should be close to get started.
The place that I have been going is well respected in the big Chevy V8 world so I think that someone that was more involved with smaller 4 cylinders could find a lot more power and drivability with a better tune.
Brian Utt
Carbir Race Cars
Ecu
Brian,
I think doing an ECU swap would be a great idea to get most of us in the ball park.
Only thing that has to be observed is the state of tune of each of the engines.
I did speak with the chaps at Omex in the UK and they are super helpful and responsive. Very easy to skype with them. They did give me a good base line map that I'm happy to share.
They did not want to give me a full map due to what I commented above. They did want to take the responsibility of having a possible engine failure due to an unknown state of tune.
From what I can tell, most of the cars have a Ztec? Which is the earlier version of the Duratec.
I'm not sure what is different about the engines.
Mine is a 2014 Duratec (stock) with Raceline / Genvey throttle bodies and foam air cleaner socks.
Mine is only tuned by the TPS. Omex suggested that to ture off the MAP sensor. They claimed the results for tuning would be as good as using the MAP too. Using the MAP just complicates things.
This is only for information.
Cheers
Linz
Duratec and Zetec are completely different engines and share nothing.
Ecu
Linz
All of the cars have the same Duratec engine installed.
Its actually the same engine that is used in the UK pro S-2000 cars.
Here is a picture of one of the chassis used for a P2 conversion and the ECU mounted on the chassis.
Brian Utt
Carbir Race Cars
Looks interesting - got to be a messenger there.
P2
No, actually this is the second car used as a P2 Conversion.
Jay Messenger was the first to do it.
He did very good job installing a Viking body kit on it and has had good results this year.
Now we are converting a couple more in our shop for P2.
P2 conversions
Jay Messenger's and Mark Schnell's conversions.
Sorry about hijacking your thread Linz
Brian both of those cars look awesome!
Because racecar...
Two cars
Thank you Donnie, coming from you that means a lot.
Just think, instead of having two FC cars in your garage you could have one FC and one P2 car. Just need some fenders and a Duratec.
Brian
But, they say MAZDA on them. Mazda Duratecs?
Ford- Mazda same thing
Frank
Duratec refers to that particular family of Engine. It is the same engine used by both Ford and Mazda. They are all aluminum block and head and come in various displacements from 4 cylinders to V-8's.
In England Ford promotes the engines so they are called Ford Duratecs in the cars while in the US Mazda is promoting them so they are called the Mazda MZR. Same motor, different valve cover.
State of Tune
Brian,
What injector size did all your engines have?
This part seems a bit of a mystery.
In order to get close to 200 hp at the wheels, you have to have at least 330cc injectors otherwise you just aren't getting enough fuel.
Linz
Linz
Suggest you get other opinions as well but my preference for that HP woud be to use the smaller Picos of 250cc (I think) and jack up the fuel pressure. We tried both approaches and using higher fuel pressure gave better engine response 'race driving'.
Most internet info I found (this was 6-7 years ago now) was centered around off-idle, low-to-medium RPM and part throttle response. Racing is different!
Of course YMMV. Derek
Or Pinto. See P2 Engine Table, Line E, Note 2.
Stan Clayton
Stohr Cars
Either of you have contact info for Mr. Karlberg? I'd love to learn more about his car. Thanks, Stan
Stan Clayton
Stohr Cars
Pm'd you his contact
Stan,
Here is a link to his original ad
http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/show...light=karlberg
Linz
Thanks for the info and links, guys.
Stan Clayton
Stohr Cars
Because I have no class
Well being as I'm without class hehehe. I decided to go over the top an build a flappy paddle shifter system
Cheers
Linz
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote