Senna Toleman - What would you pay

[Steve Bamford]

I receive some emails from the other side of the pond offering up collectables from time to time as I am sure many of you do.

One that I was surprised to see was Senna's 1984 Toleman that he raced at Monaco in the rain and if it wasn't for the red flag would have won at the pace he was catching Prost.

What value would this car actually be worth? I know what the asking price was but wondering what or where I could get an educated price.

[Beartrax]

May I add a follow up to your thread?

Assuming that one had the cash and desire to purchase Senna's Toleman, would you drive it at vintage events or park it in a museum?

[TimH]

If I could outbid a Brazilian billionaire for it I would like to drive it very carefully in an SVRA "parade" at a few tracks. I know someone who knows someone willing to drive an ex-Jim Clark F1 in the Monaco parade. That's at least as gutsy.

It's still cheaper than running for POTUS.

[Steve Bamford]

May I add a follow up to your thread?

Assuming that one had the cash and desire to purchase Senna's Toleman, would you drive it at vintage events or park it in a museum?

I would park it in my living room to be honest.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

I would park it in my living room to be honest.

And make sure you have a good view of racing on TV while sitting in it...

[Brad Smith]

A fantastic car for sure. Two things about that Monaco race. One, Senna had clouted a curb early in the race and Toleman later said they doubted the car would have lasted the distance with the weakened wishbone. Two, Bellof was catching Senna faster than Senna was catching Prost. It would have been interesting...

[mousecatcher]

Something like this is worth what one pays for it.

If the car has a previous sale history, that's the basis to value it. If not, the sky's the limit.

[SEComposites]

It would be a shame if a car like this was taken out of the public sphere and tucked away in a private collection.

[a. pettipas]

It would be a shame if a car like this was taken out of the public sphere and tucked away in a private collection.

... or Steve's living room.

[pacratt]

And make sure you have a good view of racing on TV while sitting in it...

One helluvan expensive recliner, dontcha think ?

Now as a gaming chair...

Glenn

[Paddy O'Brien]

I recall an ad for that car in the British Motorsport magazine about 2002 or so. I may still have it as I have saved quite a few of those from when I had a subscription. I thought it was kind of cheap as they were asking something like 200k pounds. The Hart turbo motor would definitely not be as easy to live with as a DFV that most Boss F1 cars seem to run. What are they asking for it now?

[Steve Bamford]

Slightly over double was the asking price.

I am also curious if something like this will decrease over time as there seems to be less interest in open wheel racing these days and when our generation is gone will anyone care like some do on here.

[provamo]

an iconic desired vehicle of no interest to BILLIONS of people

racers live in a tiny world

[TimH]

Ah, but Brazilians won't forget Senna for quite some time.

[marshall9]

Slightly over double was the asking price.

I am also curious if something like this will decrease over time as there seems to be less interest in open wheel racing these days and when our generation is gone will anyone care like some do on here.

Over time yes. The question is how much time? I'd say it will never go down in value during your lifetime or that of your children...but yeah eventually. The Model T "ish "styled cars have gone from 100K to 10K in the last 20 years. Most of the people that dig them are dead, as they were born in the 1920's. Now it's Mustangs, GTOs and Chevelle's that have gone up tenfold at Barrett-Jackson, etc. When our generation (baby boomers) are gone, those too will probably go back to the sub 10K range.....question is, what will the gen xers find desirable besides old Playstations? Most things that are collectible are bought by those with money.....people in their 60s and 70s. Yeah, some billionaires, but I said MOST collectibles.

Same with old racecars, I'm afraid....

To answer the question, I'd pay in the 5 million range.

[a. pettipas]

5 large for a Toleman-Hart that was Senna's coming-out party car is placing quite a premium on an unsuccessful race car because of his relationship to it.

(I was a Mansell fan, wouldn't pay 5 mil for anything that he and his glorious moustache inhabited).

[Chris Livengood]

Over time yes. The question is how much time? I'd say it will never go down in value during your lifetime or that of your children...but yeah eventually. The Model T "ish "styled cars have gone from 100K to 10K in the last 20 years. Most of the people that dig them are dead, as they were born in the 1920's. Now it's Mustangs, GTOs and Chevelle's that have gone up tenfold at Barrett-Jackson, etc. When our generation (baby boomers) are gone, those too will probably go back to the sub 10K range.....question is, what will the gen xers find desirable besides old Playstations? Most things that are collectible are bought by those with money.....people in their 60s and 70s. Yeah, some billionaires, but I said MOST collectibles.

Same with old racecars, I'm afraid....

To answer the question, I'd pay in the 5 million range.

I think the muscle car bubble has already begun to burst.

[Chris Livengood]

5 large for a Toleman-Hart that was Senna's coming-out party car is placing quite a premium on an unsuccessful race car because of his relationship to it.

(I was a Mansell fan, wouldn't pay 5 mil for anything that he and his glorious moustache inhabited).

How many ice cream cones would you trade for a mid 90's Arrows though? I'd give up at least 5. Would make an awesome track day ride.

[ric baribeault]

It was for sale at the Toy Store in Miami for 50k shortly before his death. They couldn't sell it. I considered buying it. Rumor was they sold it the week after for 250k

[Westroc]

I find it somewhat ironic this. Why? I have a car advertised here and Kim Baker that is 60% sure to be Senna's first FC. Yes I am aware it's the other 40 that counts and it is a niche car over here. If the guy at Arch had more of a memory left who knows. England says it's all there and not a "known" car on the Registry as the number is lower. EVEN as a tribute car it has value- to me anyway. Can't sell it.

[SpacemanSpiff]

There is or was one of Schumacher's Benetton cars for sale online for mid $700s iirc. While a bit nuts, personally I think that sets the market based on success if not tragedy. I'm from a different era though so that could be part of it.

$5M is the realm of fine art and investment grade purchases, I don't thin old F1 cars fall into this category.

[marshall9]

There is or was one of Schumacher's Benetton cars for sale online for mid $700s iirc. While a bit nuts, personally I think that sets the market based on success if not tragedy. I'm from a different era though so that could be part of it.

$5M is the realm of fine art and investment grade purchases, I don't thin old F1 cars fall into this category.

Keep in mind that I do not have 5M.

[SpacemanSpiff]

But it's nice to dream right?

[provamo]

i did just buy a lotto ticket

[Charles Warner]

The only reason to buy a car like this is to race it. Anything else is a travesty. With the Hart Turbo the engine costs will be astronomical compared to a DFV.

[Steve Bamford]

The only reason to buy a car like this is to race it. Anything else is a travesty. With the Hart Turbo the engine costs will be astronomical compared to a DFV.

It is being sold with an engine that is out of Commision so not sure if your feelings change on that or not.

Do you mean really race it or parade it more so? No disrespect meant, a serious question as you run these type of cars.

[Charles Warner]

I mean race it competitively. There are different levels of competition and if the drivers respect the cars and each other there is still a lot of hard racing.

If the engine is out of commission that will merely reduce the selling price. Those engines are available but not cheap.

[Steve Bamford]

How much would an engine be?

[Charles Warner]

A fresh DFV is about $75k. I'd guess you could actually get a Hart Turbo for quite a bit less. However, the reconditioning and maintenance on these motors is maniacal. A DFV will easily last 1500 miles if cared for. A Hart (and remember, it has to be a Toleman-Hart to fit the chassis) would last somewhere around half that.

[Charles Warner]

The last Hart Turbos I remember being available were with the Haas Beatrice Lola team that was on the block. I think 4 engines were included, 2 in the cars and 2 needing rebuild. Remember, they would often go through 4 - 5 engines a weekend for a 2 car team.

[Kazis31]

If i was to splatter millions of dollars over Senna's racing memorabilia
i would do it on cars that where actually fast .
Examples below:

[mousecatcher]

Over time yes. The question is how much time? I'd say it will never go down in value during your lifetime or that of your children...but yeah eventually. The Model T "ish "styled cars have gone from 100K to 10K in the last 20 years. Most of the people that dig them are dead, as they were born in the 1920's. Now it's Mustangs, GTOs and Chevelle's that have gone up tenfold at Barrett-Jackson, etc. When our generation (baby boomers) are gone, those too will probably go back to the sub 10K range.....question is, what will the gen xers find desirable besides old Playstations? Most things that are collectible are bought by those with money.....people in their 60s and 70s. Yeah, some billionaires, but I said MOST collectibles.

Same with old racecars, I'm afraid....

Well at least for muscle cars, they are not "collectible" in the sense that they don't have any inherent value. They were never rare or of real historical interest. So as memorabilia vs collectible, well yeah as the folks with sentimental attachment whither, the prices will drop.

OTOH a singular racecar such as this one, I'd say is truly collectible and it's just a matter of finding the right buyer at the right time. If Bruno Senna's F1 career had been better, I'm sure this car would have much more interest attached to it.

[march718]

Lots of BS concerning the Senna Monaco car 3 people claim to have it.
Hart turbo very cheap engine to run maintain so long as u don't blow the block as the block head is one casting!
However no one really races these turbo cars as they where vicious in period with 750-1000 bhp on tap for qualifying and race trim even the F1 heroes didn't like them that much.
However for a club racer to have one for track day demo driving they can be set up to run with low boost and be simple to run.

As to its value only worth what someone will pay and IMHO at the £400k the guy is quoting its 300 too much for a non running car.

I can offer you the following year car fresh rebuild fresh motor for £200k and for another 30 I can supply you with a spare motor

[OCinHawaii]

My son had no idea who Yogi Berra was.

He is 19 years old.

Things die fast. I love Senna. But who will remember him in 30 years. It's the sad truth.

I agree, racers live in small worlds, the rest of the world might not care.

[Rick Iverson]

Here

If I had the geedas, I buy a Lola T-332 F5000 for about a buck seventy-five, and do what I do best of all: drive slow and have fun.

Just say’in.

V/r

Iverson

[Dee]

I think the muscle car bubble has already begun to burst.

I had one of the 14 Factory 1964 Plymouth 426 drag cars sold it for BIG BUCKS in 2007, its been for sale a couple of time for 50k less than I sold it for


Dee

[Purple Frog]

The issue with any "collectable" is that it is only the most valuable to the generation that envies it. Usually it is valuable to that generation as it passes through an age range of approximately 55 to 70 (when they have the most disposable income). After that the value drops fairly quickly.

thus... not a lot of demand for Offy roadsters. Soon, Senna will be a distant memory. Early video game consoles are on the rise value wise.

i didn't sleep in a Holiday Inn Express last night, but Mrs. Frog watches a lot of "American Pickers".

[Steve Demeter]

i didn't sleep in a Holiday Inn Express last night, but Mrs. Frog watches a lot of "American Pickers"

I love the pickers.


Good for Mrs. Frog.

[andyl999]

I have bought many race cars including three F1's

I always have a quiet laugh or smile about the provenance of these so called famous cars.

Consider this, some of these cars are 40 years old and have been through many owners, has the car had a replacement tub? (even in racing period), has the team in period changed the tub and swapped the chassis plate? (a common practice). When an F1 car I made, they make several tubs and components, it is not unknown for a complete car to be made from these parts.

If you decide to race such a car do you use existing 40+ years old wishbones etc?

I would tend to believe provenance or history if the car was owned from the end of its active season by someone like The Pope or someone of similar standing.

I can't comment on this particular car but the years (in the UK) I have been aware of two or three alleged Senna Tolman's available for sale.

Buyer Beware!

[BURKY]

I have bought many race cars including three F1's

I always have a quiet laugh or smile about the provenance of these so called famous cars.

Consider this, some of these cars are 40 years old and have been through many owners, has the car had a replacement tub? (even in racing period), has the team in period changed the tub and swapped the chassis plate? (a common practice). When an F1 car I made, they make several tubs and components, it is not unknown for a complete car to be made from these parts.

If you decide to race such a car do you use existing 40+ years old wishbones etc?

I would tend to believe provenance or history if the car was owned from the end of its active season by someone like The Pope or someone of similar standing.

I can't comment on this particular car but the years (in the UK) I have been aware of two or three alleged Senna Tolman's available for sale.

Buyer Beware!

Definitely wasn't the Pope's car. He was a Ferrari fan.