Preferred Racing Oil & Interval

[Bob Coury]

What do you all like and what oil change interval are you using?
I am currently using Mobil 1 15-50, thinking of changing to something with more zinc.

Back in my FF days before synthetic oil, I would change it every race. In my current Pinto DC I have been changing it every 2 races or so-but also wondering if time should play a factor as well once-like 2 races or 6 months?

Asking because before the synthetic days, once the engine was run, the month clock started as the oil would begin to "break down".

[captain_pants]

I'm also curious what other people do for this. Good question!

[Purple Frog]

I follow the engine builder's instructions.

Mobil 1 makes oil for motorcycles that has more zinc. Same weights, more zinc. Targeting Harleys.

I've said it before. I have let the engine builder change my oil with each refresh. 22 hours is not a long time on modern oils.

[kea]

We use Redline straight 40wt Racing for the Pinto's in the shop.
As for change rate, it depends on the customer, but I've always felt that an oil change was cheap insurance compared to the overall costs in Racing.

[Brian]

FWIW, and not to say don't use the best oil you can (I used Motul 15W-50 racing synthetic at stupid $/litre) the whole zinc/phosporus extreme pressure additive deal was relevant to push-rod flat tappet engines where the whole pressure of the valve train was focused on a infinitesimally small section of the tappet face (very large radius ground on to the face) and the cam lobe. Sliding follower cams like some BMW and Mercedes and the Pinto (all German engines, I wonder if that is a thing) and any modern engine with roller cam followers are not as bothered by low zinc levels.

[Hardingfv32]

1) You guys are pissing away some serious HP using 40-50w oil. Current street cars use 20w and will be going to 10w in about 2018. These motors go 100k+ using 10-12k oil change intervals. You and your engine builders are missing the boat. (Google 0-16W oil)

2) Is wear really an issue with race engines? How many miles do you put on them per year? This is a competition where power has the top priority.

FACT: ZDDP is an anti wear additive NOT an anti friction additive. While forming its wear protective coating ZDDP causes the affected surfaces to become rough and increases friction. You will find that some top line racing oils do not have a great amount of ZDDP in them.

All ZDDP is not created equally. It has to be targeted for the speed and pressures involved at the affected surfaces. The surface material composition and operating temperatures are also relevant.

MoS2 works well with ZDDP. It fills in the roughness of the ZDDP to reduce the friction.

Brian

[rickb99]

We use Redline straight 40wt Racing for the Pinto's in the shop.....

INDEED, used Redline in two Pinto powered cars here for two and 1/2 years. No issues related to oiling. And after many many hours of running both engines were in good shape.

[Albatross]

A year or two back, Dave W. produced a very good multi-page article on oils. Mobile I came out to be the best, others included Redline, Joe Gibbs and Amsoil. Oil doesn't wear out. One changes it either because you cooked it or it got dirty. Mobile I makes a "racing oil" with the appropriate amount of zink if your engine requires zink. That Mobile oil has to be special ordered. Mobile I makes about a dozen types of oil for special uses. That multi-page article can be found on Google titled: Motor oil Engineering Test Data/ 540 RAT Tech Facts. It's a very long article. Perhaps "Group four" is the section most interesting to racers

[kea]

1) You guys are pissing away some serious HP using 40-50w oil. Current street cars use 20w and will be going to 10w in about 2018. These motors go 100k+ using 10-12k oil change intervals. You and your engine builders are missing the boat. (Google 0-16W oil)
Brian

Going 100K miles in the street car, spending most of it's life at low to mid-range rpm is a lot different then a racing engine that spends most of it's time at (or above) it's original designed redline. The Pinto (street car) I owned never ran RPM's higher then 4500, if that. The FC's are at 5800-7000 rpm most of the time.

[Hardingfv32]

Why?

Are you concerned with wear or a bearing failure?

Wear: A OEM engine does a lot of cooled starts and short runs. A lot of cranking with little oil film on the bearings. Is that the case with a racing engine?

Now I will agree that the rings/cylinders will wear faster but so what? The new 0-16w oils have an answer for that in the form of new types of additives.

Bearing Failure: Does high rpm equate to a greater risk of the oil film breaking down and causing a bearing failure... Maintain your oil pressure and you are not going to have a failure. The oil film actually supports more weight the thinner it is.

Brian

[Hardingfv32]

Motor oil Engineering Test Data/ 540 RAT Tech Facts.

This is all about wear ratings. What you want is friction ratings. Reduced friction equals more power.

Wear and friction are not the same thing. High friction does not mean high wear.

Brian

[Albatross]

Ref: Motor Oil Test and Data (above)

Whomever takes the time to peruse and read certain sections of the article will come away with and appreciate a much informed opinion of racing oils. So [it] seems, each new year brings the inquiry "which oil should I use and how often should I change it." As the saying goes: ignorance is bliss. We run our engines very hard. Engines that were never designed for such use. Best you pick a good synthetic racing oil and operate at proper temperatures and pressure so that your engine can live. I'll be glad to let others use the 0W-16 oil.

[Albatross]

At Brian's suggestion I googled the SAE 16 oil. That article is brief and to the point. It's an oil for the future and "future designed engines."

1) that oil will be suitable to be used in vehicles where the engine is DESIGNED to operate with such low viscosity oil...and is UNsuitable to be used in older engine designs.

2. In manufacture development, oil will become thinner, but their advanced chemistry must make sure that they still provide the same or better protection as their older, thicker counter parts did.

Obviously the above description of SAE 16 does not answer or meet the inquiry of the gentleman that started the thread.

[Hardingfv32]

But why is there a requirement for 0-16w oil... To reduce engine friction and improve fuel economy. Are you going to tell me that chemicals/additives that reduce friction in 0-16w oil are of no value to racers?

Over half of the friction reduction gained by using these new oils comes from lower viscosity. No way around this fact. The trick is design the oil to manage all the other tasks that would normally require a high viscosity oil. It is being done today and is already on the market in Japan.

'UNsuitable to be used in older engine designs' but are they unsuitable for a properly adapted older race engine that does not have to last more than 3-4000 race miles?

'We run our engines hard' So exactly what issues does that create for the engine oil?

Brian

[Hardingfv32]

While doing research on oil additives a came across some interesting info. There are four main additive manufactures. These are B2B type firms.

During one of my Google searches I stumbled across the import records of Redline Oil. This was in reference to a particular product of one of these Big 4 firms that I was investigating. Here was data indicting that Redline had imported X number of barrels of this additive. It seems that these 'race' oil firms buy complete additive packages from these big suppliers who have done all the research for them. The 'race' oil companies are just blending purchased additive packages with base stock.

Brian

[BeerBudgetRacing]

'UNsuitable to be used in older engine designs' but are they unsuitable for a properly adapted older race engine that does not have to last more than 3-4000 race miles?

Is that because the metallurgy of newer engines is different than older ones?

[BeerBudgetRacing]

Reduced friction equals more power.
Wear and friction are not the same thing. High friction does not mean high wear.

okay, so ZDDP reduces wear and moly reduces friction.

Its no wonder were confused:

Amsoil says the same thing:
https://www.amsoil.com/newsstand/cla...ar-protection/

But Valvoline is confusing with their page primarily about ZDDP:
http://www.valvoline.com/auto-resour...oil-faq-racing

The Valvoline VR1 Racing and other racing oils not intended for passenger vehicles contain additional additives for increased horsepower and reduced friction on metal parts, provide extra wear protection for high compression/higher horsepower engines, and include fewer detergents than regular conventional motor oils.

http://www.liqui-moly.de/liquimoly/p...cument&land=DE disagrees:

Extra wear protection through MoS2 solid lubricants.

And Mr Moly Agrees - reduces friction:
http://www.mrmoly.com/html/faq.html




So, the question then remains: What oils contain enough ZDDP but not too much and contain Moly - or do you have to add that....

[DanW]

For highway vehicles, the API lubricant standards govern the properties and additive packages. For off road/racing oil, its the wild west.

Most important is the base stock, then viscosity, then additive package.

Companies like Redline, Royal Purple, etc., are blenders and packagers. Some others buy from the majors and have them private labled.

Both of my Kents were built by Loyning. Arnie advised 10-30 Valvoline synthetic race oil is preferred. The viscosity/temperature curve is relatively flat. I do know of someone who uses 5-20 synthetic API street oil with a ZDDP additive. He has had no issues. The lighter the oil, the less parasitic drag and it drains back to the sump faster.

I pull a sample with a thief pump every other event weekend and have it analyzed. I change it based on the viscosity because of fuel dilution and/or silicon content (dirt) and wear metals. The samples always show high lead levels because of the leaded fuel, so I watch for tin and iron.

Regards,
Dan

okay, so ZDDP reduces wear and moly reduces friction.

Its no wonder were confused:

Amsoil says the same thing:
https://www.amsoil.com/newsstand/cla...ar-protection/

But Valvoline is confusing with their page primarily about ZDDP:
http://www.valvoline.com/auto-resour...oil-faq-racing


http://www.liqui-moly.de/liquimoly/p...cument&land=DE disagrees:


And Mr Moly Agrees - reduces friction:
http://www.mrmoly.com/html/faq.html




So, the question then remains: What oils contain enough ZDDP but not too much and contain Moly - or do you have to add that....

[Hardingfv32]

Is that because the metallurgy of newer engines is different than older ones?

Surface metallurgy could be different. It is important to remember that the OEM's need to get to 100k... racers only 3-4000k if that.

What the racer must decide is how much additional wear he will accept in his quest for performance. You can accept tire wear... why should the engine be treated any different?

To increase power or efficiency you must reduce viscosity. This creates problems with a number of systems in engine. Roller cams solves the lifter issues but the most difficult issue is the cylinder/ring system. This is where advanced additives come into play. You can get rough idea what is happening by reviewing patent applications.

Actually the pollution control devices control the additive package. The written standard just mimic these requirements. I believe the new oils will have zero ZDDP (zinc.. phosphate.. sulfur..etc.) ZDDP while 70 years old turns out to be the gold standard for wear control. Actually used as a baseline in current research but it kills cats so it is out. So there is a lot beginning developed chemically to replace ZDDP etc. Unfortunately while solutions have been found they are extremely expensive at this time...say $100+ qt oil.

Oil base stock: You want the highest viscosity index you can get. This means an oil that loses less viscosity for a given temperature gain. I believe Gibbs oils have the highest viscosity indexes. Roughly speaking.. take a Redline 0-20w under the same test paramiters Gibbs would be 0-25w. As always this improvement doe not come cheap.

Why is this important? Because the systems in the engine operate under different temperature conditions. Say you have 220-240 deg oil at the journal bearings.. the oil on the upper regions of the cylinder walls is much greater. Because of the boundary type of friction found in this region of the cylinder.. this is exactly where you want your highest viscosity.

Brian

[Hardingfv32]

So, the question then remains: What oils contain enough ZDDP but not too much and contain Moly - or do you have to add that....

My review of the literature indicates that the balance between ZDDP and MoS2 is very complex. With certain percentages they work together.. in other percentages against one another.

Oil has many different types of additives in it that accomplish several goals. Some of the goals have to be compromised in racing oil. A case in point would be detergents which can have a detriment effect on wear and friction modifiers. Oil functions by interacting with surfaces being lubricated. So there are a lot of balls in there air that have to be manipulated.

The take away is that there is no simple answer. In a way that is good because it guarantees that the everyone is not going fined the solution. This provides the opportunity for a competitive advantage.

What I will say is that with a lot of research.. testing and budget it can be done. Depends on how competitive you are. Is $100-150 a qt oil worth a 2-3% power gain??

Hell.. when was the last time you're engine builder even had the opportunity to offer a 2-3% gain?

Brian

[swiftdrivr]

As someone without the budget to consider engines as expendable experimental parts, I use Brad Penn [20-W-50 if I recall correctly] as recommended by my engine builder, and change it every other race, [which is probably too soon, but cheap insurance, I think.] I've not had an oil related problem in many years that I am aware of, although Rollin might have found some wear he didn't feel required mentioning.

[Hamish]

Lucas oils are brilliant. Their racing oils are high in ZDDP

[Dee]

Brad Penn 20/50 was recommended to me by the late John Collins chief wrench for Shelby when he won the 24 hr with the GT 40 Gurney / Foyt beating enzo
great oil this was in the past called Kendall Racing Oil

[Westroc]

I have used Redline over 20+ yrs. I am however very curious about Miller oil. Anybody tried it or have experience with it. Not a fan of Mobil anything. Why? Stick your tire pyrometer in Redline and stick in Mobil and read. Never thought of it? Why not think. Use all the tools at your disposal.