2016 Vintage FF Spec tire rules

[troyt]

Let the annual vintage FF spec tire discussion begin...

http://www.racingonthecheap.com/2016...nd-tire-rules/

From the above linked blog post:
Well, it looks like 2016 is going to be a great year for West Coast Formula Ford racing. And it seems like some clubs are actually trying to work together to fill the grids. Formula Ford The Series is joining VARA for most of their schedule, SVRA is joining VARA for most of their West Coast schedule, Cal Club SCCA (SoCal) and SFR SCCA (NorCal) both have full schedules, SFR SCCA Group 4 has invited FFTS to join them, and CSRG might even be inviting (has invited) Club Fords from other clubs to join them for their spring and fall event. Wow, lots of choices! Or is that too many choices???

However, Spec Tire Rules remain quite fragmented, much to the detriment of getting racers to join other clubs’ events. Not many racers are gonna keep two, no less three, different sets of Spec tires in their trailer. Here is a rundown on the tire rules from each club’s 2016 Rulebook. Since each club uses different Class names for the different generations of FFs, my reference will be VFF – Vintage Formula Ford ’67-’72, CFF – Club Formula Ford ’73-’81, MFF – Modern Formula Ford ’82-on with Kent motor.

VARA – Dunlop CR82 9092 for VFF, and American Racer 133 for CFF and MFF.
FFTS – Dunlops or American Racers for VFF, CFF, and MFF.
SVRA – Toyo 888 (or Hoosier?) for VFF, CFF, MFF. And Dunlops/Avons/Hoosier for Monoposto.
Monoposto rules – Dunlops/Avons.
CSRG – Dunlops/Avons for VFF and CFF.
SOVREN – Dunlops/Avons for VFF and CFF.
SCCA – American Racers for CF, Hoosier R60a for FF (including Honda powered).
EFF – Toyos for VFF, CFF, and MFF.
(Links to the rulebooks in my blog post)

The referenced Avon is the ACB9/A29. And I’ll do my best to update this post as, or if, the clubs change their rules. As a further note, some clubs will let you race with them if you’re not on their spec tire, and some won’t. Some will grid you at the back with no points, some will send you home, and some will have a different remedy on a case-by-case basis (ie. are you making waves or playing nice). So please be sure to have the answer to this question before you head to the track. But most importantly, talk to your fellow racers and Club Directors about how you feel about these rules, in a civil manner of course ??

[DanW]

Hello Troy,

As I understand it, the Avon ACB9 - A29 compound tires are the CSRG/Monoposto Register required tire.

Avon 5.0/22.0 - 13 Compound A29 #14297
Avon 6.5/23.0-13 Compound A29 #14298

Dunflops are NLA and the vintage guys are disgusted with Goodyear(Goodyear owns Dunflop) anyway.

I spoke with Locke from CSRG yesterday. He advised we club fords are also welcome at the David Love/Sears Point event April 1,2,3 as well.

I plan to go to test the waters. Yeah, I know, I will be even slower than I am on slicks, but I still have the right gears in the Zink.
Regards,
Dan

[teamwisconsin]

I assume club references to the Avon A29 will eventually change to the Avon ACB9 as that is the updated tire

Troy-
Just a heads up, for the Avon vintage FF tire, A29 is a compound, ACB9 is the model. They are also made in A37 and A25 compounds.

Ethan

[troyt]

Thanks Ethan for pointing that out, I was looking for that info but couldn't find it. I'll correct my post accordingly.

Dan, any word on what happens if you showed up on ARs? Sent home or gridded at the back?

[DanW]

Troy,

Both Ethan and Lock advised that the Avon ACB9's in the A29 compound are required. They won't accept us with AR's

Correction!
Locke advised we are welcome at the Thunderhill event in April(NOT Sears Point) and the October event at Thunderhill. I'm planning to go if I can get tires.

I would love to see 20 club fords on the grid.

Dan

[Bill Manofsky]

The Formula Ford The Series race with VARA in November at Willow Springs drew 17 FF's. It was a very competitive race. The lead cars were on American Racers. But there was a mix of tires in the rest of the field. I even saw a car on Toyo R888's.

Go to vararacing.com for the 2016 race schedule.

[DanW]

From discussions with Ethan:
The main reason for treaded Avons is equalizing the run group to mitigate the years of chassis technology advances. A treaded,tire reduces the benefit of stiffer chassis, wizzy adjustable reservoir shocks, and other bits that have improved the breed.

The treaded tires reduce ultimate grip and allow the cars more drift through the corners.

I'm not happy about the out of pocket cost, but it should be lots of fun.

[troyt]

Thanks for the info, Dan. I'm sure you'll enjoy the CSRG event, let us know how it goes.

William, will you be racing with VARA at Willow Springs this March? Hope to see you there.

[teamwisconsin]

Ok gentlemen, it's official. At last nights board meeting Club Fords were approved for the two Thunderhill CSRG events.

Here's the skinny (no big surprises):

1) Entrants must run the Dunlop or Avon tires per CSRG rules, to wit:

Front: Dunlop 135/545-13 CR82 9092 or Avon 5.0/22.0-13 A29 14297
Rear: Dunlop 165/580-13 CR82 9092 or Avon 6.5/23.0-13 A29 14298
For Dunlops only the 9092 compound is allowed (476 not allowed).
For Avons only the A29 compound is allowed.
It is not permitted to mix the two tire brands; only Dunlops or Avons may be used

2) No advertising on the car

3) Approach the event with a vintage racing mentality (zero tolerance for contact, rough driving, etc)

4)Current license (SCCA, FIA, CSRG, etc, etc...)

5) Entrants must join CSRG: $150 annually/$75 for one weekend


See you there!!!

[DanW]

Ethan,

Great news. Thank you for the update and clarification.

Dan

[gbilawsky]

SVRA just posted that they are allowing the new Hoosier treaded vintage FF tire...only they don't stipulate eligibility for each of the run groups: FF, CF or PCF. Well, so much for standardizing on the Toyo R888.

I'm perplexed. In the vintage spirit, We are supposed to be running as close to "as run in period" , which would include slicks for the CF and PCF classes. Now we have to run two modern tires... including a totally new, untested design. If a single spec tire was supposed to equalize the performance of the 3 periods, how can certifying two radically different tires achieve that outcome, while also allowing the Monoposto selections?

Now Dunlops, Avons, Toyos and Hoosiers are legal. So, can SVRA add just one more so I can have my vintage slicks back?

http://www.svra.com/tech-bulletins/tb2016-004-ff-tires/

[marshall9]

RE: SVRA

This is really bad news....Not only are the set ups WAY different from the new Hoosiers to the R888s, but within a class, there is no way that the R888s will be competitive against the Hoosier. I predict 5% a lap slower with same driver, no matter skill level.

Bad move SVRA.

Obviously, they can do what they want, it just seems a little odd to do it two months after they set the rules for the season and many already began testing and engineering for Toyos. Hoosiers, according to the bulletin, won't be available until mid April. So you are supposed to run half a season on R888s and then have to learn what your car likes set up wise on different tires for the second half of the season to be competitive? Boooo !

[Layabout]

Hello Troy,

As I understand it, the Avon ACB9 - A29 compound tires are the CSRG/Monoposto Register required tire.

Avon 5.0/22.0 - 13 Compound A29 #14297
Avon 6.5/23.0-13 Compound A29 #14298

Dunflops are NLA and the vintage guys are disgusted with Goodyear(Goodyear owns Dunflop) anyway.

I spoke with Locke from CSRG yesterday. He advised we club fords are also welcome at the David Love/Sears Point event April 1,2,3 as well.

I plan to go to test the waters. Yeah, I know, I will be even slower than I am on slicks, but I still have the right gears in the Zink.
Regards,
Dan

CORRECTION: The events to which CFs are being considered are the two Thunderhill events on April 29-May 1 & October 28-30 & not the races at Sonoma.

[DanW]

CORRECTION: The events to which CFs are being considered are the two Thunderhill events on April 29-May 1 & October 28-30 & not the races at Sonoma.

That was completely my error. I got the two April events confused.

My apologies.
Dan

[Tom Duncan]

How much do the Avon A29/ACB9 cost, where do we get them from and can they be mounted on a simple Harbor Freight manual tire changer?

Tom Duncan

[Tom Duncan]

I'm confused by one of Dan's posts:

"Both Ethan and Lock advised that the Avon ACB9's in the A29 compound are required. They won't accept us with AR's

Correction!
Locke advised we are welcome at the Thunderhill event in April(NOT Sears Point) and the October event at Thunderhill. I'm planning to go if I can get tires".

So can we run AR's or not?

Tom

[teamwisconsin]

How much do the Avon A29/ACB9 cost, where do we get them from

Kraus has them in stock. The fronts are p/n 14297 and the rears are 14298.

And no to American Racers. Tire rules are stated above.

[fitfan]

reading on hoosiers site - i think its pretty clear this new tire does not replace, or match the SVRA rule on the Toyo spec tire - only on the "monoposto" vintage avon/dunlop SVRA option. read the announcement - its says over and over ..vintage, vintage, VFF, to domestically fulfill demand for supply of tire for vintage class VFF, etc...

so - this tire has Zero - to do with SVRA and toyo spec tire class(es). it only has to do with SVRA "monoposto" and avon/dunlop.

id anticipate others to follow suit.... if your gonna spec a tire, you need to be able to get the darn things!

Hoosier Tire is proud to introduce a new tire for Vintage Formula Ford classed vehicles. Hoosier Tire saw a need to offer these tires which, because they are domestically produced, will be stable in supply, offer consistency in performance, extended tread life, and be a very affordable choice for this vintage market.
These new tires will be available the first of April 2016 and can be purchased through our Distributor and Dealer network.
SVRA (Sports Car Vintage Association) has added the new Hoosier VFF tires to their approved tire list for the Vintage Formula Ford classes in 2016.

in other words. SVRA monoposto spec tire is now avon/dunlop/hoosier

SVRA toyo spec tire is still only the Toyo.

good move by all parties in my opinion - only question to the vintage guys, running the avons, will be - is it better than, equal to, or less than the Avon?

SVRA just posted that they are allowing the new Hoosier treaded vintage FF tire...only they don't stipulate eligibility for each of the run groups: FF, CF or PCF. Well, so much for standardizing on the Toyo R888.

I'm perplexed. In the vintage spirit, We are supposed to be running as close to "as run in period" , which would include slicks for the CF and PCF classes. Now we have to run two modern tires... including a totally new, untested design. If a single spec tire was supposed to equalize the performance of the 3 periods, how can certifying two radically different tires achieve that outcome, while also allowing the Monoposto selections?

Now Dunlops, Avons, Toyos and Hoosiers are legal. So, can SVRA add just one more so I can have my vintage slicks back?

http://www.svra.com/tech-bulletins/tb2016-004-ff-tires/

RE: SVRA

This is really bad news....Not only are the set ups WAY different from the new Hoosiers to the R888s, but within a class, there is no way that the R888s will be competitive against the Hoosier. I predict 5% a lap slower with same driver, no matter skill level.

Bad move SVRA.

Obviously, they can do what they want, it just seems a little odd to do it two months after they set the rules for the season and many already began testing and engineering for Toyos. Hoosiers, according to the bulletin, won't be available until mid April. So you are supposed to run half a season on R888s and then have to learn what your car likes set up wise on different tires for the second half of the season to be competitive? Boooo !

[marshall9]

PDF was amended since my post, probably not because of it, but that is not the way it read this morning. Doubtful Troy and I both read it wrong. Glad they clarified it.

Good looking out fitfan !

[fitfan]

^^ no doubt - and of course it was due to your astute observations - take credit when you can man!!!

i just heard about this yesterday from Roland, and then saw the tread and clicked the link - i will freely admit little to no intelligence on my part

[troyt]

Thanks for all the info, gentlemen. I'm updating the info on my blog just now. The Avons that CSRG require for participation look to be about $1100/set + mounting. No prices available on the new Hoosiers yet. Also no word yet on the updated American Racer 133 compound...

[marshall9]

Thanks for all the info, gentlemen. I'm updating the info on my blog just now. The Avons that CSRG require for participation look to be about $1100/set + mounting. No prices available on the new Hoosiers yet. Also no word yet on the updated American Racer 133 compound...

http://www.svra.com/wp-content/uploa...4-FF-Tires.pdf

says here Hoosiers are 175.00 Front and 185.00 Rear each.

[troyt]

Under $800 for the vintage FF Hoosiers, that's more like it. Hope they end up as good as the Avons sound to be... Hoosier didn't have much luck with their vintage FV tires, hopefully they've got it figured out now.

[GregPeluso]

Forgive me for being thick headed. I was actually excited about the toyo series but now it seems that the very same cars will be running other tires in the same run group.... And not to be confusing anything with true vintage because my car is a rf88. It was my understanding that I really only had the opportunity to run was due to the spec toyo. Soooo, is it true with the SVRA I could show up with either tire with my year of car? If so I do not see it as a win because the group is bring diluted with the same car running different classes. If this is true then it only makes sense to buy the Hoosier because you can run it also with VRG. What I was excited about trying open wheel this year with an older car was the fact that it seemed like there was a lot of potential regarding competition (numbers wise) ..not 25 cars in a run group all getting wins.
I live in the Pittsburgh area an wish I could see what's going on in the Arizona region. Maybe the vintage groups that plan on running the 3 separate era of cars concept should just be taken over to the SCCA with the Hoosier vintage tire?
I really am excited about giving this a try.... Just want to have fun and a little competition, even if I am dead last I can at least measure my improvement in relation to others instead of just lap times. I am guessing if one was to run with many different groups and run different tires to compete within those groups it could become frustrating with setup and possible progression tracking.

Greg

[TimH]

Hey Greg,

In the Arizona EFF group we all run Toyos. Several times a year someone shows up with different tires and they run with us as non-points competitors. The fast guys are fast on any tire, the slow guys are slow on any tire, and most of us are somewhere in between. Our new Vector owner is a little quicker than he was in an RF85, but not hugely so. I've gained several seconds in a 1976 Crossle' compared to a 1972 Caldwell, and think maybe a couple of those are the car.

Most significantly, we often are stuck in a run group with some FCs and FMs on slicks. Of course the fast guys in those will smoke us, and the slow ones get in our way. Kinda puts Toyo vs. Hoosier into perspective....

Just get out there and drive.

[fitfan]

others can verify. but i believe, with SVRA - the Toyo is the spec tire with the exception of monoposto spec cars. monoposto ONLY address Vintage (~68-72) era cars and there are more regulations there than just tires (engine parts, shocks, etc...) so i do not believe your ~88 era car would qualify to meet monoposto - therefore, you wouldn't be eligible to run the new vintage hoosier. if you have a VFF, then that person would have the option on how they spec their car and what tire to run based on that. (if they have a monosposto spec car they run the vintage treaded tire, if their car isn't monoposto - or if they choose not too simply on tire preference, then they run the Toyo.)

guys, did i get that right?

Forgive me for being thick headed. I was actually excited about the toyo series but now it seems that the very same cars will be running other tires in the same run group.... And not to be confusing anything with true vintage because my car is a rf88. It was my understanding that I really only had the opportunity to run was due to the spec toyo. Soooo, is it true with the SVRA I could show up with either tire with my year of car? If so I do not see it as a win because the group is bring diluted with the same car running different classes. If this is true then it only makes sense to buy the Hoosier because you can run it also with VRG. What I was excited about trying open wheel this year with an older car was the fact that it seemed like there was a lot of potential regarding competition (numbers wise) ..not 25 cars in a run group all getting wins.
I live in the Pittsburgh area an wish I could see what's going on in the Arizona region. Maybe the vintage groups that plan on running the 3 separate era of cars concept should just be taken over to the SCCA with the Hoosier vintage tire?
I really am excited about giving this a try.... Just want to have fun and a little competition, even if I am dead last I can at least measure my improvement in relation to others instead of just lap times. I am guessing if one was to run with many different groups and run different tires to compete within those groups it could become frustrating with setup and possible progression tracking.

Greg

[GregPeluso]

FitFan,
I hope you are right. That would make sense.

Greg

[troyt]

Close...
SVRA allows FF drivers to race VFF and CFF per Monoposto rules if properly spec'ed. Those drivers may choose to race on vintage treaded tires, aka Dunlop/Avon/and now Hoosier, for now... (their site says until July 2016)

All allowed FFs (VFF, CFF, and PCF) that do not meet Monoposto rules, or just choose to, will race on the spec Toyo 888s.

[GregPeluso]

So an RF88 CAN run with the new Hoosier vintage tire ..... PCF. This is what I thought.


Greg

[troyt]

So an RF88 CAN run with the new Hoosier vintage tire ..... PCF. This is what I thought.


Greg

No, in SVRA only Vintage FF and Club FF can run the new vintage Hoosier tire, and only if they comply with all other Monoposto rules, and only until July 2016. Then they race classed as FFM and CFM.
All others (including PCF) must run the Toyo 888 DOT race tire.
See the post #1 or #28.

[GregPeluso]

Thank you. So to end confusion for anyone else.... All cars with inboard suspension on both axles MUST run Toyo 888 when running with SVRA AND the other vintage FF and CF are welcome to do so.......

Greg

[Rick Parent]

Hi Guys,

I thought I would step in here and provide answers to the questions concerning SVRA and the FF Tires.

First, Monoposto as most of you know is a separate organization from SVRA and this year according to their schedule will be having points races for their FF members within four different SVRA events in 2016. These events are;

Monoposto schedule link; http://monoposto.com/MR_2016_Results.html

Indy
Watkins Glen
VIR
COTA

If you are a Monoposto member you must contact me so I can classify your car properly, FFM or CFM. (M=Monoposto)

All FFM and CFM cars must be prepared to Monoposto rules.




All other Formula Fords must be prepared to the SVRA FF Rulebook and will be classified as;

Formula Ford = FF
Club Ford = CF
Post Club Ford = PCF

All SVRA FF Rulebook prepared cars will have the choice of 2 tires for 2016,

Toyo R888
Hoosier VFF

If you still have good Avons or Dunlops you my use them until the end of July on your FF and CF.

It is SVRA's desire to help Formula Ford racers control costs when it comes to tires, enter Toyo tires. Now, Hoosier has dedicated themselves to helping FF racers by creating a tire that is cost effective as well long lasting. 2016 is a transitional year for the SVRA FF tires, hang in there we are trying to get it right.

[GregPeluso]

Thank you for actually setting it straight.
Since we are racing, which tire is faster?

Toyo 888
Hoosier vff

Any tire contingency? Btw that is not a bad thing and has always been a part of racing... People paying to have their products marketed. If there is anything to help bring people out it should be done.

Greg

[TimH]

Since we are racing, which tire is faster?

The one on Rodney's car.

[troyt]

Rick, thanks for setting the SVRA rules straight.

[fitfan]

Ha! vroom vroom

not so sure about that - but appreciate the thought

The one on Rodney's car.

[fitfan]

i do not think anyone has really tried the new hoosier out in the wild yet...

if i had to make a wild ASSumption - id venture a guess that the hoosier will be faster simply down to compliance, sidewall, weight, and ability to better tune. same as the avon/dunlops. but thats not really the right question - the right question is vs the avons/dunlops - will the hoosier be faster or slower or the same?

Toyo's are a bit of brick. but if everyone in class is on the toyo - its a level playing field. and the Toyo is not a "new" tire to FF. just new to SVRA.

(although i will say i like the avons - hard pressed to get me to say bad things about them, assuming you can get them, and afford to keep putting them on.)

Thank you for actually setting it straight.
Since we are racing, which tire is faster?

Toyo 888
Hoosier vff

Any tire contingency? Btw that is not a bad thing and has always been a part of racing... People paying to have their products marketed. If there is anything to help bring people out it should be done.

Greg

[DanW]

i do not think anyone has really tried the new hoosier out in the wild yet...

if i had to make a wild ASSumption - id venture a guess that the hoosier will be faster simply down to compliance, sidewall, weight, and ability to better tune. same as the avon/dunlops. but thats not really the right question - the right question is vs the avons/dunlops - will the hoosier be faster or slower or the same?

Toyo's are a bit of brick. but if everyone in class is on the toyo - its a level playing field. and the Toyo is not a "new" tire to FF. just new to SVRA.

(although i will say i like the avons - hard pressed to get me to say bad things about them, assuming you can get them, and afford to keep putting them on.)

According to one of the more knowledgeable drivers I know, the Avons can be run until the tread is gone. They are very progressive at the limit allowing the driver to drift the car through the corner if he chooses. The braking distances are longer than AR slicks. The Avons also level the playing field between the older cars and new. The latest wizzy shocks, cockpit adjustable sway bars, brake bias adjust tend to lose their advantage. The guys who have run them for years will have the advantage for a while until us CF hoopties figure them out.

Regards,
Dan

[fitfan]

i have a pair i wore down to "slicks".... they do get slower, but its a very bit by bit slower. not a cliff. i think the cords don't grip so well.... HA.

[Tigaman]

i do not think anyone has really tried the new hoosier out in the wild yet...

if i had to make a wild ASSumption - id venture a guess that the hoosier will be faster simply down to compliance, sidewall, weight, and ability to better tune. same as the avon/dunlops. but thats not really the right question - the right question is vs the avons/dunlops - will the hoosier be faster or slower or the same?

Stan has his set and will try 'em out this weekend at his test track, a local airport. We'll see at VIR?