P2 parity

[dalz]

I've looked around a several forums, and I was wondering what the P2 competitors think of the rules between all the various cars. The flat-bottom Stohrs/Wests and high-end Radicals seem to have come to the fore, and I think that's fine; they are outstanding cars. Does a well-prepped S2 or other creation still have a chance? Just curious.

[Dog Licked Racing]

I was in P2 for awhile with a SCCA Enterprises ESR, but the constant increases in horsepower along with the weight reductions granted to the top end money cars chased me away. I don't have the time, money, or simply the desire to chase technology with the money P2 now requires. There should have been a huge difference between P1 and P2 but it now seems to come down to having a flat bottom part installed on a otherwise P1 car.

[Craig71188]

I have seen a few discussions on this in other SR forums. It has been said the thought was to allow "stock" (ish) motors in P2 for cost savings. As the current P1 / P2 rule set is relatively new, I would hope for some weight increases for some of the motorcycle engines and/or some restrictor increases for some of the automotive engines.

Only time will tell, but given the SCCA's historical path on rule making, I am not too optimistic.

[dalz]

Thanks guys. That is disappointing. When an ESR is not in the ballpark, I would say that things have gotten out of hand. I would've thought the Stohrs/Wests would have more handicaps. Is there any rule change initiatives moving through the beauacracy as of now?

We are working on a FM converted to sports racer. It's allowed a better-ported rotary, diffuser, a much better front bodywork than the original MSR. I'll be really bummed if all this effort and $$ is in vain.

[Dog Licked Racing]

Go and look in Fastrack and the Com Board notes on the SCCA website, notice the adjustments granted to the motorcycle power P2 cars over the past 3 or 4 months. Huge weight reductions as well as engine increases in some cases.

As usual the SCCA can't hold the line on performance in the lower of two specification classes. P2 should have been a great class but now its simply flat bottomed P1. Oh no electronic shifters only mechanically operated paddles - wow such a huge difference.

I purchased my ESR to use as a track day car. I race SRF reasonably well this season I moved from a GEN2 to a GEN3 SRF so I don't really care about the fate of P2, it was fun running for awhile and if I hope to run with the P2 guys in MARRS again none of us have the cars needed to run at what we used to call the National level.

The SRF GEN2 was a horrible track day car, every one held you up in the corners but then ran away on the straights using the 650 HP in their corvettes. Then when you got to the braking zone they were on the binders while you were considering another upshift. The GEN3 SRF is better, the ESR is great I can run down the straight with all but the super powered cars and god help you in that Mustang if you try to stay with me in a corner or try to out brake me

Good luck with your project, maybe next year we can get a P3 class where old S2000 and all the low tech sports racers can run against each other for fun.

[Amon]

Dog,

It's my understanding that Vintage S2000 has really become popular and they
have very large fields. Not knowing much about P1 or P2, I don't know how the
S2000's tie in but thought I'd mention it! Good luck!

Mark

[Craig71188]

SCCA seems to like to add classes for no apparent reason - let's lobby for "P3" for automotive engine cars and leave P2 to the bike powered cars! More weight, larger restrictors, limited mods for older carbureted engines, very limited for newer FI engines. No sequential boxes and no paddle shifters, flat bottoms and no diffusers. Limit wheel width to 6" F and 8" rear and call it a day!

Run S2's, old FC cars that just want to add bodywork and all the old "no longer competitive" automotive powered SR's - call it a "heritage class"!!!

[Jnovak]

SCCA seems to like to add classes for no apparent reason - let's lobby for "P3" for automotive engine cars and leave P2 to the bike powered cars! More weight, larger restrictors, limited mods for older carbureted engines, very limited for newer FI engines. No sequential boxes and no paddle shifters, flat bottoms and no diffusers. Limit wheel width to 6" F and 8" rear and call it a day!

Run S2's, old FC cars that just want to add bodywork and all the old "no longer competitive" automotive powered SR's - call it a "heritage class"!!!

Sounds like you want the lap times to be about what S2000 cars can do.

I talked to the crew guy of an auto powered P2 car at the Runoffs. It had a fully built Pinto in the car with plenty of power but he was not competitive. Not sure why but he certainly had enough power if his numbers were right.

[Craig71188]

Sounds like you want the lap times to be about what S2000 cars can do.

I talked to the crew guy of an auto powered P2 car at the Runoffs. It had a fully built Pinto in the car with plenty of power but he was not competitive. Not sure why but he certainly had enough power if his numbers were right.

Yes and no...
Have some allowances for the older carbureted engines (like the Ford 2.0 / Mazda 12a) you could use the current P2 auto engine rules as a baseline. A lightly "hot-rodded" S2 if you will and a place for older F2000's to go - and Zetec's as well. Look at the fields in the Euro Duratec S2 series.

Faster than S2000, slower than P2. Another forum stated an SCCA target of xx% for P2 to be slower than P1. Shoot for the same difference to P3. A "limited prep" class with variety! Some innovation for us non-engineer tinkerers that won't bankrupt you to run "competitively".

[neilca]

I must say I have been disappointed in the recent rule changes. Reducing the weight on the Stohr/West car was foolish, then they reduced the weight on the Radical to a point no one will be able to meet it. The world according to Neil would have kept the weight on everyone and do competition adjustments with the inlet restrictors. I also would have slowed down the field to be more in the middle between the P3 and P1 cars. There is no sense in running a class one second slower than another class per lap.

I have a Radical Prosport and will probably run P2 just cause I like SCCA and have raced with them for about 30 years.

Neil Cawley

[Tigaman]

Dog,

It's my understanding that Vintage S2000 has really become popular and they
have very large fields. Not knowing much about P1 or P2, I don't know how the
S2000's tie in but thought I'd mention it! Good luck!

Mark

Vintage S2000 in some parts of the country is terrific. We had close to 40 cars at VIR in September, with a usual turnout at several events each year of between 15-24. Everyone up front gets their engines done by Sandy or Steve, and the rules for prep are frozen at 2012, with no MZR option permitted.

I don't know what P2 cars are doing (lap times) these days, kind of lost interest when the Stohrs got blank off plates for the tunnels. That was not supposed to be the idea, IIRC. The S2000 cars are plenty quick at the pointy end (2:18's Road America, 2:13's at Sebring, 1:56-57's at VIR, high 1:12 at Summit), plenty quick for thirty year old cars still built to SCCA spec.

[dalz]

Go and look in Fastrack and the Com Board notes on the SCCA website, notice the adjustments granted to the motorcycle power P2 cars over the past 3 or 4 months. Huge weight reductions as well as engine increases in some cases.

As usual the SCCA can't hold the line on performance in the lower of two specification classes. P2 should have been a great class but now its simply flat bottomed P1. Oh no electronic shifters only mechanically operated paddles - wow such a huge difference.

So the Stohrs got more weight breaks AFTER they smoked the Daytona Runoffs, with only a $120,000 Radical keeping them honest!?

I guess I envisioned the ESR to be a good P2 performance target when it launched. It would be a place for a lot of cars to be competitive that had no prayer in the modern C/D sports format. Too bad it's gotten away so quickly.

[David Locke]

P2 is not P1 with a flat bottom. The difference in lap time at Elkhart Lake, for example, is normally on the order of 10 seconds, which is not just downforce but also a significant disparity in straight-line speed. At most tracks the lap time difference between the two classes is enough for the P1 leader to lap the front-running P2 car in a typical Sunday Majors race.

P2 was intended to be faster than S2 from the beginning. Since ESR was slower than S2 before P2 was created, ESR was never going to be the P2 performance target. ESR has a line in the "spec line cars" table, which is intended to accommodate existing cars that were previously homologated as DSR or CSR without requiring expensive changes to make them compliant with the P2 rules. As with the "spec line cars" table in P1, it gives competitors a place to run but does not guarantee they will be at the front. They also have the option of bringing their cars into full compliance with the P2 rules. ESR was previously homologated in CSR, and it is obviously a lot closer to the front in P2 than it was in CSR.

The Stohr that "smoked the Daytona Runoffs," Chris Farrell's stock 1000cc flat bottom WF-1, did not receive a weight break. The recent weight change in Engine Table Line B.5 involved cars with stock motorcycle-based engines like the Hayabusa 1340cc, which had been required to weigh 300 lbs. more than the 1000cc car in the original P2 rules.

[Dog Licked Racing]

Wow - I thought it was only me that saw the P2 class hitting the money wall at full speed. Thanks for all the comments that are in line with my thoughts.

After the Comp Board issued a significant weight reduction to one P2 car that lapped me every race at VIR I wrote the Comp Board to encourage them to carefully consider the weight to horse power gap that was developing in P2 as they issued these weight reduction to winning cars. They replied by thanking me for my I letter and referring me to a new ruling. When I look at the new ruling it was ANOTHER huge weight reduction and a granting of a larger engine to the top cars. I can only read this as a FU from SCCA.

I suspect the P2 class will wither and die as more and more cars pull out over the selection by the Comp Board of the two current model car that have selected to be competitive. With the cost of a new P2 being what it is I really don't see many jumping into the game, be it competitors or car builders.

I like the concept of P3 as has been discussed, just please include the ESR as specified in the GCR when the class is born.

In the mean time please come and race the MARRS series where we have a bunch on non-competitive P2 cars and will be having fun despite the best efforts of the Comp Board.

[dalz]

David--thank you for clarifying some pertinent rules. My comments on the current situation were over the top. I'm not sure we've seen enough P2 cars in all their possible combinations to really gauge parity issues. I don't know if a well-prepped ESR would be slower than an equal S2, but I understand the belief that either in purely stock form is probably not the proper P2 performance target. But the mods to bring them up to speed shouldn't break the bank.

Again, lack of cars makes speed estimates tough. At Gingerman and MIS, the P2 track record is faster than P1. With all due respect to the competitors, I think the RA record could go down significantly. Someone could ID a new best mousetrap in the rules and be very fast.

Dog--if David is correct, the Huyabusa engine was always on the books, they just got a weight break to be closer to the 1000cc cars. 300 lbs. over would be pretty crippling.

And geez guys, we can't have P3. This all went down the way it did to cut the number of classes. We really should try to make P2 work for the most racers.

[Tigaman]

a well-prepped ESR in purely stock form is probably not the proper P2 performance target. But the mods to bring them up to speed shouldn't break the bank.

And geez guys, we can't have P3. This all went down the way it did to cut the number of classes. We really should try to make P2 work for the most racers.

Agreed, and I have seen even less ESR's out than Sports 2000 cars (towards the end of the latter's National class recognition).

Even more odd is that NOW, there are plenty of Sports 2000 cars around. They just didn't come out in force at SCCA events.

P3? When compared to the accommodation Club Racing made to add Touring classes, I find the argument for reduced number classes selectively applied, at best...

Of course, I'm still sore about losing G Production...

[Craig71188]

Agreed, and I have seen even less ESR's out than Sports 2000 cars (towards the end of the latter's National class recognition).

Even more odd is that NOW, there are plenty of Sports 2000 cars around. They just didn't come out in force at SCCA events.

P3? When compared to the accommodation Club Racing made to add Touring classes, I find the argument for reduced number classes selectively applied, at best...

Of course, I'm still sore about losing G Production...

My mentioning of P3 was purely musing on my point - I have no belief it would ever happen, and I am the first in line for SCCA reducing the number of classes. That said, when you look at the proliferation of production/touring classes and the shear number of open wheel classes, it would seem sports racers/prototypes are on the short end of the stick. Rather than creating a huge expense to make WSC, S2 and other older automotive based SR's faster, it would seem much less expensive to add weight/reduce restrictor size on the motorcycle power plants, sequential gearboxes, etc. The other issue becomes the wear and tear on LD200 / MK series gearboxes when HP numbers needed to be competitive start getting up in the 180+ range.

IMHO...SCCA has seemed to be on a path of accommodation those that want to spend more money to go faster within a given class (rather than move to a faster class) for many years. In doing so they continue to create problems in the way of participation numbers only exacerbated by adding more classes (especially those they then abandon as far as having a place to be competitive-see S2 above). Look at the continued raging debate over FF and cost creep. Look at the continued decrease in competition licensed drivers within SCCA. After 35+ years, now more than ever (as much as I would prefer not to), I am looking to spend my time and money for track time with other organizations that seem to have a better grasp of amateur/grassroots racing.

[Tigaman]

That said, when you look at the proliferation of production/touring classes and the shear number of open wheel classes, it would seem sports racers/prototypes are on the short end of the stick.

IMHO...SCCA has seemed to be on a path of accommodation those that want to spend more money to go faster within a given class (rather than move to a faster class) for many years. In doing so they continue to create problems in the way of participation numbers only exacerbated by adding more classes (especially those they then abandon as far as having a place to be competitive-see S2 above). Look at the continued raging debate over FF and cost creep. Look at the continued decrease in competition licensed drivers within SCCA. After 35+ years, now more than ever (as much as I would prefer not to), I am looking to spend my time and money for track time with other organizations that seem to have a better grasp of amateur/grassroots racing.

^^THIS^^

Great post, and you are not alone...

When I started, SCCA was the only game in town. I am proud of the Club's heritage, but that is not enough to offset the fact that there are others who make it a greater pleasure to go racing...

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

After 35+ years, now more than ever (as much as I would prefer not to), I am looking to spend my time and money for track time with other organizations that seem to have a better grasp of amateur/grassroots racing.

Boy, I am in the same demographic as you and couldn't agree more. I have recently done a few VARA and SVRA races and it has been kind of refreshing. Kind of like SCCA used to be......

I feel that they (SCCA) are trying to do the right thing, with the best of intentions, but just can't seem to get it right. Maybe it's just me.......

[JohnPaul]

I must say I have been disappointed in the recent rule changes. Reducing the weight on the Stohr/West car was foolish, then they reduced the weight on the Radical to a point no one will be able to meet it. The world according to Neil would have kept the weight on everyone and do competition adjustments with the inlet restrictors. I also would have slowed down the field to be more in the middle between the P3 and P1 cars. There is no sense in running a class one second slower than another class per lap.

I have a Radical Prosport and will probably run P2 just cause I like SCCA and have raced with them for about 30 years.

Neil Cawley

This is the most foolish thing I ever read..........I never met anyone that liked the SCCA.....lol

Oh, another thought not related to my last statement^^^(that was a lame attempt at humor): how do we really know if it's the car that isn't competitive or the driver??? (Or vise versa) I'm being serious

[phantomjock]

..how do we really know if it's the car that isn't competitive or the driver??? (Or vise versa) I'm being serious

Uhh - Data? (I hope - having just bought a bunch of DA bits...)

Cheers - Jim

[JohnPaul]

Uhh - Data? (I hope - having just bought a bunch of DA bits...)

Cheers - Jim

Uh....data.....I love watching racers interpret squiggly lines, it's like listening to a stripper talk about world peace.....

[ghickman]

Wow and we were told that P2 was doing so well.

Glad FB didn't get the P2 restrictor treatment like the CRB was attempting to do.

[David Locke]

Wow and we were told that P2 was doing so well.

Glad FB didn't get the P2 restrictor treatment like the CRB was attempting to do.

P2 actually is doing well, with only two seasons in the books. After finishing 26th in the U.S. Majors participation standings in 2014, P2 moved up to 17th position in 2015 - two spots above FB in the ranking.

[ghickman]

P2 actually is doing well, with only two seasons in the books. After finishing 26th in the U.S. Majors participation standings in 2014, P2 moved up to 17th position in 2015 - two spots above FB in the ranking.

I would expect that when you take 2 or 3 legacy classes and put them into one. Not doubting the numbers it's the parity part of it that appears to be what folks are saying.

[David Locke]

I would expect that when you take 2 or 3 legacy classes and put them into one. Not doubting the numbers it's the parity part of it that appears to be what folks are saying.

Grousing on a public forum is rarely a good indicator of the facts. Most people were not in favor of consolidation, but when it became a reality the folks in the ad hoc committees spent an enormous amount of their personal (and sometimes professional) time trying to do the best job they could do for the competitors, and that work continues today with the FSRAC and the CRB.

[JohnPaul]

Grousing on a public forum is rarely a good indicator of the facts. Most people were not in favor of consolidation, but when it became a reality the folks in the ad hoc committees spent an enormous amount of their personal (and sometimes professional) time trying to do the best job they could do for the competitors, and that work continues today with the FSRAC and the CRB.

For the competitors or for themselves? Combining dsr and csr was a total waste and wrecked the sport racer category. The "objective" was to consolidate the classes and bring out obsolete cars and make them competitive. So what happened? The obsolete cars are still not competitive (surprise surprise), they could have been back markers in dsr. Result: P1 is comprised of cars with zero parity (regardless of whatever BS comes from the ad hocers). MC cars in P1 have no chance against a real driver in an Atlantic conversions......long track, short track... no difference.
I think the only way to save the class is to get rid of P1 all together and push everyone into a P2 class that allows shifter systems, stock MC engines and tunnels. Send the Atlantics on their way or go back to csr/dsr and add a P3 for the older cars.

[dalz]

P1 is comprised of cars with zero parity (regardless of whatever BS comes from the ad hocers). MC cars in P1 have no chance against a real driver in an Atlantic conversions......long track, short track... no difference.

Not even counting the obvious refute of last year's Runoffs...a check of every long track, short track in CENDIV/Great Lakes, almost every old DSR track record is faster than CSR, or the new P1 record is almost always a former DSR. You might conclude those Atlantics need to find more "real drivers", but there are plenty of those up here....

[sccadsr31]

[JohnPaul]

Not even counting the obvious refute of last year's Runoffs...a check of every long track, short track in CENDIV/Great Lakes, almost every old DSR track record is faster than CSR, or the new P1 record is almost always a former DSR. You might conclude those Atlantics need to find more "real drivers", but there are plenty of those up here....

Again, that's strictly driver. Have you ever been out on a track with an Atlantic conversion and see first hand how they can pull multiple seconds to the next turn? I suspect you have haven't.

Let's put it this way: if you put the same driver in an Atlantic conversion and an MC car on the same track, 10 out of 10 times they will be much quicker in the atlantic

[Jnovak]

IMO the main reason we are seeing few automotive powered P2 cars is that it costs a lot more $$ to be competitive. It is not a power deficit as they can certainly get enough of that. The only way to make the S2 cars competitive, as they are currently configured is to slow the entire class down about 4-5 seconds a lap.

Right now if you look at recent times from the Florida races the P2 car are turning FC lap times. Now this is just a couple of races but I think this is about right.

Just my opinion of course.

[dalz]

Again, that's strictly driver.

Mr. Forrer, Mr. Mucha, Mr. French Sr./Jr. make that statement sound kinda asinnine.

[Bill Bonow]

The flat-bottom Stohrs/Wests and high-end Radicals seem to have come to the fore, and I think that's fine; they are outstanding cars. Does a well-prepped S2 or other creation still have a chance? Just curious.

In attempt to answer Dale's question (and keep this positive), that answer (IMO) is yes.

I have been taking care of a P2 car for LMI for the past (2) seasons.
It is a 95 VD FC Pat Price "LSR"conversion with a stock bike engine.
The cars GCR weight is 1000# (and we've had a tough time getting it close to that number)
The driver, Anders Graff, is certainly good, but he's not outstanding.
The car finished 4th at Laguna and Daytona.
Along the way, Anders won a few Majors events in front of Stohr/West and I think even the odd Radical

So, to me, this falls into the "other creation" category and the results point to having a chance.

One more IMO, P2 is an excellent class and is growing (as shown by Dave's chart).

[dalz]

Thanks Bill, I've definitely taken note of that car, a very clean machine. The guy in the seat ain't hurting it either. It gives us hope for our Mazda project.

[Bill Bonow]

Dale,

That is one example.....
I'd bet there are a whole bunch more.
Richard Colburn's car comes to mind (surprised Jay didn't already bring it up ).
Many P2 wins including Homestead a week ago (beating the Stohr that finished 3rd at Daytona).
I'm looking forward to seeing another P2 variant on the track.
Can't wait to see your creation.

[Tigaman]

Let's put it this way: if you put the same driver in an Atlantic conversion and an MC car on the same track, 10 out of 10 times they will be much quicker in the atlantic

Two words. Scott Tucker.

That's the trouble with shotgun statements like that.

[ghickman]

Mr. Forrer, Mr. Mucha, Mr. French Sr./Jr. make that statement sound kinda asinnine.

Maybe you didn't intend for it to read this way but I feel it's important to extend some respect to a current SCCA National Champion.

[Craig71188]

IMO the main reason we are seeing few automotive powered P2 cars is that it costs a lot more $$ to be competitive. It is not a power deficit as they can certainly get enough of that. The only way to make the S2 cars competitive, as they are currently configured is to slow the entire class down about 4-5 seconds a lap.

Right now if you look at recent times from the Florida races the P2 car are turning FC lap times. Now this is just a couple of races but I think this is about right.

Just my opinion of course.

One other aspect is many of the automotive based cars are running Hewland MK or LD series boxes. Once you get to the power required, the box's durability starts to become an issue / concern / cost.

In attempt to answer Dale's question (and keep this positive), that answer (IMO) is yes.

I have been taking care of a P2 car for LMI for the past (2) seasons.
It is a 95 VD FC Pat Price "LSR"conversion with a stock bike engine.
The cars GCR weight is 1000# (and we've had a tough time getting it close to that number)
The driver, Anders Graff, is certainly good, but he's not outstanding.
The car finished 4th at Laguna and Daytona.
Along the way, Anders won a few Majors events in front of Stohr/West and I think even the odd Radical

So, to me, this falls into the "other creation" category and the results point to having a chance.

One more IMO, P2 is an excellent class and is growing (as shown by Dave's chart).

(My emphasis on the above quote) - It is always easier / cheaper (and sometimes safer) to make cars a bit heavier than have some of the low minimums that exist currently. The heavier minimums across the board also negates some of the benefit/cost of higher tech (and cost) construction.

It's still new (P1/P2) - I think there are improvements/refinements to be made. My major concern still revolves around the "cost to be competitive" and/or the obsolescence (from a competitive standpoint) of many existing cars as the rules/class structure exists today. We can debate all day over the relative competitiveness of one engine chassis combo vs. another when built to the full extent of the rules and driven by a real "shoe" on a given track - that's why we run races.

Regardless, I think it is safe to say in general the current structure is not "friendly" to the older "H" pattern Hewlands, nor cars that are really set up for s 6" F / 8" rear wheel and would require major reworking to fit the wider wheel combinations currently needed to be competitive. Maybe I have a flawed perception that there are enough of these automotive powered SR's that would come out and run on narrower wheels, be limited to a formula that nets <150-160hp and run at a bit heavier minimum weight.

[Bill Bonow]

Gary,

I think the intent was that these drivers are in converted Atlantic cars/drivers.

Being that the P1 National Champ (Gianpalo Ciancimino) and the P2 National Champ (Chris Farrell) were both in bike engine Stohrs, it really didn't make sense to include them in an " Atlantic conversion" group of drivers.

I'd bet a large amount that Dale has the utmost respect for both of these worthy 2015 champions, but I'm not sure how it fits into a "Atlantic conversion will always win, 10 of 10" type of discussion.

I guess in reality, Gianpalo made the above statement null and void anyway.

[ghickman]

Gary,

I think the intent was that these drivers are in converted Atlantic cars/drivers.

Being that the P1 National Champ (Gianpalo Ciancimino) and the P2 National Champ (Chris Farrell) were both in bike engine Stohrs, it really didn't make sense to include them in an " Atlantic conversion" group of drivers.

I'd bet a large amount that Dale has the utmost respect for both of these worthy 2015 champions, but I'm not sure how it fits into a "Atlantic conversion will always win, 10 of 10" type of discussion.

I guess in reality, Gianpalo made the above statement null and void anyway.

Yep I get all that.

What I find most intriguing about this class is how the heck you bring some level of parity to them. My only real exposure to the class is comparing Farrel's car and looking at Dave Fergusons car. Makes me tired just thinking about all the development Dave's put into his car not to mention dollars.