Thanks for posting your list. I think we could have saved Doug a lot of bandwidth if that was in the first post. Probably wouldn't have gotten past page 1.
Thanks for posting your list. I think we could have saved Doug a lot of bandwidth if that was in the first post. Probably wouldn't have gotten past page 1.
Competition One Racing
racer6@mchsi.com
Lol Ed...a 150 hp bike motor so it can run about the same straight away speeds as FM, FC and FE and then park in the corners....it will be a great addition to the FCME run group.
Need to grid a car faster than a FV and slower than the FF/F500 crowd.
Just my opinion but FE stalled at 100 cars because SCCA dropped it into an already populated performance niche .... They did not make the same mistake when they started SR./SRF
One of the reasons SM currently and FV and FF in their days grew to the numbers they did was the cost of cars both new and used relative to medium income.
As an example, when I started racing a new FV with trailer was $3,000 (Zink). I paid $1,500 for a 3 year old Mk 3 Autodynamics. I was making $8,000 a year. $8000 was about medium income.
FF came along a few years later and prices were about $4,000 to $4,500 for a new cars. I paid about $4,300 for my Autodynamics FF, a few years later. I was making $9,000 by then.
The second thing that drove new car sales was the improvements in the cars from year to year. Yes, to race at the front, you generally needed a car that was 1 to 3 years old. But the demand for cars was good enough that you could trade up for about what it would cost to do a proper rebuild of a car that you had driven for 3 years.
The only way that we can get back to that type market, if it is even possible, is to have a car that is both attractive and priced at 1/2 of medium income, ready to go. Today that is something like $30,000.
Yes you can buy a FE for $25,000. But with new cars costing $50,000+, that sets the cost structure for the class. That means your customer market is people making $100,000 annually. There are way more people making $60,000. Thus the cost structure for any new entry level car has to be under $30,000, new and ready to race.
I think SM kind of falls into this cost structure. Plus The Miata is some what contemporary. FV and CF are not deemed contemporary. And for sure a Thunder Roadster is not.
Finally, a proper entry level car has to be relatively inexpensive to make mistakes with. Front wings cost as much as tires. I figure that if someone is really running hard, that person is likely to use 2 corners per year at a minimum. Based on my experience with fixing crashes, I think what I drew might be well under $500 for a rear corner and half that for a front corner.
Wel, thanks for bumping this thread into 5 pages thenOriginally Posted by SStadel
Or you could just stay out of it and let those that are interested in this discussion have their fun. My list came about through collating the thoughts and ideas this thread generated.
According to 2 current F500 constructors that I spoke to at the Atlanta Majors in March, they cannot deliver a new turnkey F500 for less than $30k. Jay was not part of the discussion, but I'm sure his Blade is at least that much.
I'm posting this just as a point of reference for how difficult it will be to deliver a low volume formula car for the $20-25k magic number that is mentioned throughout this thread. Jay has been designing and building cars forever, so I'm sure he has many solid ideas for rules that would keep the cost down compared to the current F500/600 rules.
I agree with many of the other posters that the original concept of F600 would have been very close to the "holy grail" car that keeps getting discussed ad nauseam in threads like this. Thanks SCCA!
Cory
Oh yea you also need to get a major auto corp to sponsor it so you can sell the first 250 to 300 at a lose....bingo .... A big lose
And here it is....
SCCA announces its newest class....
FSM (Formula Spec Miata).
Bill Bonow
"Wait, which one is the gas pedal again?"
I'd drive that. Sounds like it would be a better looking, better sounding skippy car without the useless wings.
I'm not quite sure what you mean to be honest.
Auto manufacturers, such as Mazda, sometimes offer money as a subsidy to builders of new cars as a way to decrease the price of the car. This is usually for the first batch of cars as a way to encourage people to buy into a new class since the car will inevitably cost more once the subsidy runs out.
Also, it appears he meant to say "loss".
I race communist race cars.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling, there are rules." - Walter Sobchak
The mid-engine version... because mid-engine is just plain cooler!
Mid-engine.
200 hp
5 speed
DOT tyres
Street car uprights and bearings
Fills the bill....
Last edited by Purple Frog; 05.11.16 at 6:56 PM.
Does that have a 13B in it? lol, wow.
I race communist race cars.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling, there are rules." - Walter Sobchak
There are way to many open wheel classes and none of them are low cost except for FV. I suspect that the club may relagate the lower car count classes to regional status in a few years as numbers continue to dwindle, or perhaps combine classes with very similar lap times. You never know what is happening up there.
Thanks ... Jay Novak
313-445-4047
On my 54th year as an SCCA member
with a special thanks to every SCCA worker (NONE OF US WOULD RACE WITHOUT THE WORKERS)
I could build a super badass version of the very car you are speaking of and make them "turn key" with a simple data logger for $22,000 out the door.
This very car I was approached by a well known driving school to build.
Think of it as an FB with no wings, no underwing / diffuser.
The Hayabusa is what I spec'd it with as they are plentiful, less than $3k, and robust beyond belief.
Gary Hickman
Edge Engineering Inc
FB #76
Do you think it would be better to have the spaceframe itself be a spec design or have it be open and just all those other parts spec? With street tires in particular there's not much going to be much gained by having an incredibly over-engineered frame but open design allows any manufacturer (or even joe schmoe in his garage) to build a car of their own. Even if it's a treaded r-compound tire like R888s or something, probably not grippy enough for a fancy frame to make a difference. Spare parts commonality would be retained across all cars as those would all still be a spec. I'm imagining a class like Formula Vee or First just with a much faster bike engine and modern suspension geometry.
My thought would be not to have a spec frame. For me, the frame follows from the suspension. FV builders survived for decades building bodies, frames and some suspension components. This class can do the same.
Something that might be spec about the frames and bodies is some minimum silhouette at say the back of the seat to roll bar area so all the cars are very close in frontal area.
Like it or not, the builders have to make a little money. Making complete cars is little more than trading dollars. Supplying parts for the cars you make is the business you are going for. And as an entry level class, the parts business should be decent.
The least expensive wheel I could come up with was to have steel rims that bolted to an aluminum center section, like the wide 5 wheels used on some roundy round racers. The rims would be under $50 and maybe some one could turn them out for $25 each. Center sections generally survive crashes and changing only the rims, you save a lot of money.
How many would you have to make to meet that price?
Solid axel, open diff or spool?
SCCA legal from a safety standpoint? Granted it would run in FS but it comes with a fire system, 6 point harness, legal fuel cell, etc. right?
Does the design require a new body or is it your FB parts without wings?
That seems optimistic but clever people can solve tough problems so maybe you've done it. I'd buy one.
Jim
Anybody guessing how scary a 1000# car, with 150 hp, driving on hard street tires, with a gross of unsprung weight, and no downforce, is going to be to drive?
I say push-rod suspension is needed to save money on all the crash damage. Else there is going to be a lot of bent shocks...
It'll be just fine! Jeez, we're race car drivers aren't we?
How many threads are there on here about reducing aero and increasing mechanical grip to make the cars more exciting to watch and drive?
When I was back home (uk) in October I talked to a friend of mine who ran an FF team in the Duratec days. He said they were mega to drive. 160hp, no wings. They did have slicks admittedly. Sounds good to me.
Badass Phoenix Super Formula
You would simply drool over what we came up with over 2 years ago. We kinda did this on the heels of the FB (F1000 wave).
This car we came up with was drop dead cool!
Problem I see is it would be too popular the SCCA would find some way to kill it....isn't that how they operate? Sorry I'm still jaded by what they're trying to do with FB.
If I could get 20 people to do a spec run of cars just like we did for Swift back in 1983 I'd build them.
They'd be fun track day cars at least and with a bike motor they sound cool.
Gary Hickman
Edge Engineering Inc
FB #76
Jeez Frog you scare way too easily.... We we're going to rev limit them down to about 125hp...but hey crank up the limit if you feel daring.
Our car was going to have pushrod suspension, I can build them for the same cost as outboard and they have better crashability.
Gary Hickman
Edge Engineering Inc
FB #76
Back about 15 years ago Suzuki came up with a "Formula Hayabusa", based on all the mechanicals derived from then-current Suzuki street cars, with a 1299cc Hayabusa engine providing the motivation.
Dig around on the internet and you can find lots more photos and data. From the sounds of it they were ahead of their time.
Stan Clayton
Stohr Cars
Let us see it.
Your reference to it being a great track day car sort of implies it would not be FS legal. Maybe I am reading too much in to it. Could you clarify a little?
I am not trying to be difficult, just trying to understand how you can get to the $22K turn-key car. Did you get orders for 20 cars in 1983 without showing what you (and Paul White, David Bruns, etc) came up with? That is great FF history and I'd love to here the details from some one involved.
With a bit more info maybe you could get 20 deposits.
Jim
Sure I could send out CAD renderings to those interested.
Of course it would be FS legal, we would homologate it that way since there's nowhere else to put it at this time.
Think of it like this....if you've seen the latest iteration of the Phoenix F1000 then remove the wings, remove the underwing, diffuser. Put 4 bolt 13" wheels on it there you have it.
Just to clear this up, I was one of the original Swift investors. We all ponied up our $10k and Bruns went to work.
Keep in mind Phoenix Race Works cars are all designed by Dustin Wright, most of you on Apexspeed have likely heard of him. Think of a modern day Bruns with degrees to put him on any F1 team.
I'm the guy that figures out how to build them and I just happen to be a driver also.
Gary Hickman
Edge Engineering Inc
FB #76
No thanks to a Legend-like car.
I raced their evil twin (Dwarf) back in the mid 90's after getting out of karts.
Dwarfs were much quicker due to tire and engine rules. They were also open wheel.
We were 220-230HP range in a 73" wheelbase car that weighs 1000#. That's not an entry level car. In my opinion they have no business on a road course due to a few safety concerns.
I don't scare easily, but IMO they were too fast for 1/3 mile tracks, especially pavement.
The main issues are: only way out is through an open door. Helmet won't fit through a window, and cage structure prevents roof hatch. No reverse means a 2-car accident with the inability to open a door could be a scary issue. Lastly the main frame rails are 1" x 2" x .120 and the rest of the complete chassis is only required to be 1" x .083". No thanks on a car that can be that quick.
A friend raced his Dwarf at Laguna years ago and was quicker in it than the FM, S2 and FF there that day.
What's the fascination with 13" wheels? Sure steel wheels (heavy) can be had for nothing, and nice wheels (expensive) can be made super light, but there's a huge gulf in between, and it limits options on tires. Might have been different in the Mini days, but they're long gone.
If you go to a 15" wheel, you can borrow wheels from the Miata's, S2000, BMW's, etc. If I remember correctly, the SM tire is almost exactly the same OD as an FF tire. I have a set of 11 or 12 lb 15x8 wheels that were $125 a corner.
-You get access to tires bought in higher volumes than 13" tires.
-The wheels tend to look nice; maybe not a deciding factor, but it's nice to have.
-If you trash one, Tire Rack might just have one.
-You'll see higher inertia than a nice wheel, but probably not than a steel wheel.
-You gain slightly higher, more controlled spring rates by shrinking the side wall for better control.
Edit: 949 racing (Miata race shop) sells their wheel design in 15"x6" for $145 and it weights 9.9 lbs. Admittedly, I'm not sure what rubber you can get that you'd want in that size. SM rubber is an 8" tire (or thereabouts)
Last edited by SpacemanSpiff; 12.30.15 at 8:33 PM.
Patrick Cleary
Definitely something worth looking at. At some point (2017?) F1 cars will be using larger diameter wheels at which point every junior category will want them!
What is the weight difference? If heavier that will obviously slow you down significantly in many areas.
Another thing to consider is the extra two inches will obstruct your vision and limit you to what you see. It can be a safety issue.
Steve Bamford
Looks like the concept is gaining some traction.
Gary are you talking an assembled car with engine and data for $22K? If so when can I send you a check?
Thanks ... Jay Novak
313-445-4047
On my 54th year as an SCCA member
with a special thanks to every SCCA worker (NONE OF US WOULD RACE WITHOUT THE WORKERS)
This was the price we quoted a well known driving school for 20 cars about 3 years ago. They were supplying their own tires.
Gary Hickman
Edge Engineering Inc
FB #76
Wheels and tires
The availability of 15 inch wheels and tires are better, but there's a bit of a downside to it. 15 inch tires cost more. Additionally, today's passenger cars require larger tires because they need to carry more weight. A formula car doesn't need a large capacity tire. We also also don't need a 15 inch wheel for mega brakes either. The proposed formula car for this discussion is a relatively low powered and light weight engineering concept. Any unnecessary extra unsprung weight is going to negate the positive attributes of a formula car. Let's keep it as simple as possible and still come up with an attractive and fun racecar.
Any treaded street legal tire that we find is going to be designed for a 2500-3000 lb sportscar or small sedan. That means that the street compound will be immensely hard for a formula car. By default, it should last forever and be very entertaining to race on. Just like FF was for the entire world except for the SCCA. When it rains, there's no need to carry around extra wheels and tires for rains. They are the same tires! We just saved a huge investment in minimizing spares.
Does anyone still manufacture true street legal 13 tires that aren't trackday or autocross specials? Remember the KISS method. We don't need overpriced sticky tires if everyone is racing on the same tire. We need to change our priorities away from which tire is faster to which tires are affordable and still meet the criteria for this exercise.
Everyone knows that tires are a significant portion of any racer's budget. It would be helpful to find a tire that doesn't go away with multiple heat cycles. The idea of using one set all year sure sounds like a great concept. But is it possible without giving up too much lap time? Maybe we have some knowledgable tire experts that can comment further. I know I'm asking for the Holly Grail of tire technology. How close can we get?
As an example. Some of our members might remember a few years ago when BFG ran a GTP car on street tires. Who cares how fast or slow they went? Their marketing was to promote their street product for the masses. Street tires on a light weight race car worked fine, for them. They also supplied the street spec CompTA tire for the original Legends cars too. I drove them and it was a hoot? I have never understood why we are so focused on using short-lived slicks on spec race cars. What's the point, when we all have the same tires? Do we want to actually race, or pretend to look like racers?
Everyone has a finite amount of budget. We can spend that limited resource on expensive consumable parts, or we can spend it going to MORE races. Tires and engines are the most expensive consumables. May I suggest we keep an eye on those two areas as we entertain how to create yet one more affordable race car. We are all guilty of trying to re-invent the wheel without learning from our past mistakes. There's plenty of talent and experience reading this thread, let's stay focused.
I don't think you have to look any further than the Toyo R888 actually. Plenty of data on running it in FF. One set you last you all year.
SM7s are $50 a corner cheaper than the FF1600 tire on Hoosier's website. Can you get them warm on a formula cars? I have no idea, but they're supposedly a good tire (and I think related to the new FF tire). The Toyo's are $10 a corner cheaper (Tire rack).
You might even be able to run Miata aftermarket brakes if the offsets work out. Calipers and pads are cheap.
Hell, you design a decent, cheap Miata based hub assembly you might even sell them back to the Miata crew (who would love to go lower without running compromised geometry.
Honestly, I don't think it needs to be cheaper than a R888, plenty of people are willing to run them on the street.
Weight difference of what? These compared to a 13x6 race wheel or 13x6 compared to the steel wheels suggested up thread? Bassett (steel race wheel mfg) quotes a 13x6 steel wheels at 12lbs so a bit over two pounds there. These are also designed around a car at 3x the weight, so the raw castings might be able to be thinned out as well (although this hurts the option of buying off the shelf). You also see some incremental improvement due to a shorter sidewall (less rubber weight), although I doubt it's much. These are also only the first wheels I picked, there are lighter out there.
Compared to a light weight wheel, which might get down to the 6-7lb range at 13x6, they're not super appealing outside of price/availability.
Wheel assembly OD stays the same (or could), the sidewall shrinks an inch a side and the wheel takes up the bigger hole.
13x6 is used as someone mentioned it up thread.
Last edited by SpacemanSpiff; 12.30.15 at 11:00 PM.
Patrick Cleary
Wheel and tire weight are important to acceleration and braking capability. I am fine with 13"'x 6" or,maybe 7" wide wheels. But I bet that spun alum wheels, in enough quantity, will weigh less and cost the same as steel wheels. This is simply something to consider and that is all.
I am researching this and will let you know what I learn.
On another note, I am excited to see this thread turning to ideas from lots of people.
Keep it going.
My goal is to have a running roller with engine installed for show and tell at the Runoffs.
Bodywork takes a lot more time.
Thanks ... Jay Novak
313-445-4047
On my 54th year as an SCCA member
with a special thanks to every SCCA worker (NONE OF US WOULD RACE WITHOUT THE WORKERS)
You will never get enough heat in a SM7 running on a open wheel car. Slip slide and away.
IMO, one of the greatest rules in SM was the 13 lbs. min weight for wheels. I had (I think) 17 wheels. Many were purchased new from Tire Rack for $94.
Gary, do you have a drawing of your proposed your car?
I could get excited about a 150 HP Hayabusa FF size car, and I have little doubt it would look great (based on your past work).
A big plus would being able to purchase the major parts and assemble it myself.
I like the no wings idea. I really liked not having to worry about wings when I moved to FF from years of wings and things.
This discussion has gotten a lot more interesting in the past day or so. I really like hearing constructive comments from people I admire & respect (Steve, Jay, Stan, etc.).
Oh, and Ben, too. :-)
Once upon a time, an outfit in Missouri - you know - the "Show Me" State was building Baby Grand National cars. The details were:
Engine New Yamaha XJR 1300 (1250cc)Motorcycle Engine
Horsepower 120-125 h.p. (Approx)
Roll Cage 1 1/2" Tubing-.095" Serial #60 and later
Wheelbase 76.5 inch
Width 53.0 inch
Length 11 feet 11 inch
Height 42.0 inch
Weight 1250 lbs.
Wheels Aero Steel 13 inch X 7 inch
Tires Hoosier Slicks 21 x 13 - 7
Steering Stiletto Rack & Pinion
Suspension Afco Coil-Over shocks
Rear End Winter's Quick Change
Now this is a little heavy and a little low on the HP envisaged by many, but these are/were available for less than $14K on eBay - less engine but quick change rear end included. My point here, is that the difference may just be chassis design, body, and size of engine. Admittedly, no small effort in those, but looks like there may have been a price point they could meet. Looks like could come in at less than $20K - that seems like a starter!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Baby-Grand-R...8n_X9A&vxp=mtr
Somebody come in with a chassis design, body and see who will/can build it at a reasonable price point.
BTW -- As the slicks wear - personally I'd be happy to replace with the lower entry price to a new vehicle - not a used one. Note: those Aero Steel wheels are 60 bucks each.
Cheers - Jim
Our original goal for the Blade was to build and deliver a kit for $20K and a roller for $25K. At that price point there is very little profit at the build quantities F500 can support. The biggest problem with delivering a ready to race car is that when you have a roller the car is 90% complete with 90% of the work left to do.
Final assembly and prep work are such a big part of the equation that a $30K delivered car is very tough to do, especially as a 1 at a time endeavor.
That said, if we could build the Blade in quantities of 10 at a time it could be a profitable endeavor to sell kits at the $20K price point. There have been about 30 NovaKars built over the years and we have learned a ton about how to do it low cost.
The biggest problem is that while F500 is a fabulous class it is not what the open wheel marketplace is all about. F500 is a niche class and will always be that way. I am so sad that our old idea of F600 with 90" wheelbase and wider stance did not happen. That class could have easily been what is being discussed here.
I think the concept being discussed here is much better and much more attractive to the low budget racer than our F600 concept was. Bigger, faster and at the same $20K price point.
I have always been a low bucks racer and never thought about anything else. This concept has my blood boiling again. Amatuer OW road racing for the low bucks racer has not existed for a long time. Maybe now is the time.
I am going to drag out my old F600 proposal and update it to this concept. It take a day or 2 to revise it.
Thanks ... Jay Novak
313-445-4047
On my 54th year as an SCCA member
with a special thanks to every SCCA worker (NONE OF US WOULD RACE WITHOUT THE WORKERS)
Spec OW
Jay,
So are you proposing essentially a FF with 600 or 750 motorcycle power and a live rear axle? I would think this could work with a long lasting spec tire, restrictors to level the power between the engine manufacturers- OR and I like this second idea better- Find a spec crate MC engine (sealed) that can be bought from the manufacturer to prevent "engine of the week" costs and continuous fighting between the different engine camps on IIR sizes for parity. The rev limits on this engine could be brought down a thousand RPMs or so with spec ECU's to promote longevity.
Is there a manufacturer that will offer a new crate motor? From the sounds of it Honda (HRC) sounds the most interested in our sport.
-Eric
The best option at the moment is the Hayabusa engine. Plenty of reliable performance and would be rev limited to well below its red line but still in the 140-150 bhp range. The 2008+ model is still in production and can be bought low mileage for $2500 - $3500. As you say just one motor so there's no arguing over relative performance. Basic spec would include an open diff. Yes to the spec long life all weather tire.
There are currently 5 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 5 guests)
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote