It matters to me.Originally Posted by Steve Demeter
It matters to me.
I took the frame in the car above and stuck a Honda Fit, bell housing and a Elite transmission on the back as a new FF. This package has some advantages as a FF.
But I don't think there is a significant market for a new FF, F1600. Or a market for any other formula car for that matter, at least not at SCCA Club level racing.
But it's still a girls car .............................. NAAAaaaaa great car, roll up windows and air conditioning compared to the TR3 I had at 17, put the windows in the trunk, LOL............ great racing series to participate in and u don'tz need a Huffiker engine to have fun ............. mentioned in some of my posts the hoot I had in the Rabbit Bilstein Cup in 79, definately not as scary as a modest powered formula car (work not fun a F1 driver said about driving formula cars) ............RB Cup was sidekick series to the CanAm and a couple Indy races, plenty of spectators n world renown drivers, ................. yea, we thought about spec Miata, buuuuuuuutt!!!!!! ..... as far as open wheel derivitive, where's the beef (transaxle), may do a driver pushed backwards like the Elan car a few years ago, rear drive, sort of prototype car!! (was it a Phaelon, Proton?????)
Last edited by Modo; 12.28.15 at 10:30 PM.
If I wanted to race spec cars (and had the cash) and didn't care if the cars were fast or pretty (the theory behind spec it seems), I'd race SRF if I wanted a purpose built or SM if I wanted a tin top. They're cheapish used, will hold value (unless you have a 1.6 SM), are generally reliable. They also have huge fields and excellent drivers. I can't think of a lot of reasons to go somewhere else. The room to grow open wheel cars (and prototypes) isn't in this group I don't think. SM also gets to double or triple dip (SM, ITA, FP), they may not win in those classes, but it leads to more fun.
I agree with the suggestion of something that can be run as a "prototype," as that opens up many more usage opportunities (done right you might be able to double dip into P2). Going along with what Steve said, one time costs and repeated costs are very different to me. I like the idea of F600, but the tradeoffs annoy me, especially when the majority of expense in motorsports is operation/travel.
I'm an engineer (as are a lot of my motorsports friends), I want to play with cool stuff and see what works. And yes, looks do matter to me. Maybe they shouldn't, but they do. If your goal is to bring people in from the outside don't argue just what the people on the inside like.
If I were going to start a class I'd consider a single engine line, replace it every decade, and only even try for parity between the most recent to engines. And codify all that in the rules. Everyone knows what the deal is going to be and can budget for it, and you don't have to get a 50's tractor engine to match to a fuel injected modern engine.
What would get me going, and maybe be manageable cost wise? FF chassis with DOT treadeds (R888 or similar), Fit engine without the dry sump or better yet a K20, the Elite or Swift transmissions (get enterprises to buy a bunch to bring costs down), 15" wheels (way, way more options at way lower dollar levels than 13's and the only tradeoff is that other people can run 13s).
Patrick Cleary
From the appearance of a lot of expensive paint jobs I'd say a large percentage of racers care.
Scott Woodruff
83 RT5 Ralt/Scooteria Suzuki Formula S
(former) F440/F5/FF/FC/FA
65 FFR Cobra Roadster 4.6 DOHC
When the F600 concept was being developed I communicated with Jay once and opined that I thought it would be more interesting to a broad cross-section of people in a more "FF-Like" chassis. I was imagining a rough knockoff of a Swift or VD, with 13" wheels and outboard rear suspension. I think that spec-shocks and hard brake pads to go with the Toyo Tires would keep operating costs in the area that a "working" guy could do it. I don't know that it is realistic but we need this to appeal to people that make less than 80K a year.
I know that when I first started in this madness it was on a $10/hr job and I even paid rent, utilities and food, just like a real person. (meaning I didn't live at home and have no bills).
Using Club Ford-type chassis as a launching point may be a way to make it realistic for more folks.
I think the 1 Liter bike engine with a restrictor makes a lot of sense.
TAFN
We might not be having this discussion if F600 had hit the mark as a new class. So near but so far sadly.
I think I will start building in about a month. Have not decided on the motor yet but it will be a Bike motor.
Thanks ... Jay Novak
313-445-4047
On my 54th year as an SCCA member
with a special thanks to every SCCA worker (NONE OF US WOULD RACE WITHOUT THE WORKERS)
Owm
It is ashame that we do not have a road race, mid-engine version of a 600cc micro sprint. New cars fall around $20,000, good used ones for $12,000, starter cars for $6,000-8,000; engines go for $2,000-$6,000 depending on prep and condition. The great thing is that is despite all the different chassis and bodies, everyone pretty much runs the same stuff as far as axles, brakes, wheels, torsion bars or springs. My car is a Hyper but, parts from RTS or even Speedway Motors will work.
Pretty much the same things that worked for formula vee and the early days of formula ford; it is the components that have added to the cost of formula racing. We just can not take a part from one car and add it to other despite brand of car.
https://youtu.be/vmx2M9hs4s4
Rich
I have a lot of SM customers that have shown interest in FE. The thing that kills it all the time is the small fields and the wife thinks it's dangerous.
FE checks all the boxes. No need to reinvent yet another car. It's the same as SRF and better than SM.
As far as I can tell its a lack of promotion. For the most part the tin top guys have no clue about anything wings and things. It's not something they can easily relate to. The key to growing the fields is to promote / educate outside of the wings and things group.
A sure fire way to kill a class is to watch it participation numbers drop. No one wants to be last off a ship.
At the last Gingerman majors I had a large group of the SM crowd on the fence at the exit of t2 for the wings and things run group. Reese Everard and myself were giving the 101 course on wings and things. Most had no clue what cars were what and the difference between them. They did continually bring up the lack of participation in each class as well as the depth of the field. A lot said that it would be fun to try driving one.
A lot of SM guys would like to race something other than SM but find it hard to leave the big talent deep fields.
Just like any product. You have to sell it.
Your absolutely right. Steve Stadel has been doing a great job at increasing the FE field in the CenDiv in just one year of running the One Formula Challenge Series that races with SCCA regional and national events. From my understanding, at least 2 more will be running here next year as well. With the One Formula Series, the top 6 spots got cash payouts at the end of the year (First got around $3500!) I will be at one or two of the One Formula races next year more than likely and will be running a few open track days at Gingerman to get more seat time.
If you ever want to sell somebody on an FE have them check out Steve's gorgeous new shop he built and they can look at the many FE's he has there. Very fine group of people in FE from my experience last year.
I race communist race cars.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling, there are rules." - Walter Sobchak
One key to selling it is. Get butts in seats to try it. Not race them just some lapping.
I can say for myself coming from SM and after driving my DSR/P1 car I have lost all interest in racing tin tops. As far as budgets go I can campaign my top prep P car for cheaper than a top prep SM. Actually I built a top prep SM to rent and in the last 3 years I personally have never driven it. No interest anymore.
So it's again it's not a hardware issue.
SM and SRF have a big draw and that's the big fields. It's also a curse. Because of the big fields there is a lot of contact. This becomes a big part of your racing budget that has to be factored in.
If you're from Macomb, it's only a couple hours to my shop. Come up and take a look around. There will be as many as 15 FE's at Gingerman this year. I skipped it in my series last year as we stayed West of Indiana. We're racing at Gingerman, Mid Ohio and Grattan in 2016, in addition to Blackhawk and Road America (twice). Btw, we just added another CenDiv /Northern Conference driver to FE this week.
Competition One Racing
racer6@mchsi.com
The purpose of this thread was discuss what a low cost reliable and robust entry level formula car would look like. I'm sure FE has its merits but it doesn't check many boxes for this brief.
So far I'm thinking -
Open wheel formula ford style body work. Some better form of side impact protection.
Simple spec steel tube frame,
Spec shocks and springs
Possibly outboard suspension only
Spec road car bearings/hubs
Spec 13x6" wheels (no more than $100 each)
Long life all weather tire (one season on a set)
No wings
Rev limited Suzuki Hayabusa to 145-150hp approx 3k rpm below factory limiter. (restrictors or electrical limiter)
Stock ECU, no power commander, stock harness (or modified stock)
Mechanical shift. No ignition cut.
Wet sump
Spec gearing (maybe a 'short' gear option)
Rear end options - solid axle, IRS spool, or open diff, I'm not sure.
This should produce a fast cost effective car to run. Price would have to be $20k or less for a complete chassis kit less motor.
I've mentioned this before but I'll say it again. A current Legend car has everything your looking for in this "new" car. They use a yamaha FJ motor 1200cc that's about 130hp. There are tons of these motors around. They weigh a touch over 1000#. Anyone who has raced one will tell you they are a blast to drive. They do kind of blur the line between openwheel and closed. And aero wise they suck. But they use very common stock parts, or simple cheap low tech alternatives.
The real advantage I can see with them is the abundance. Go to a US nationals oval race and there are 300 cars there. Any short track will have a dozen or more racing weekly. If you could tap into the guys oval racing them, and convince them to come road race, you could have a lot of them.
Last time I checked they were around 17k brand new. Lots of good cars forsale under 10k
I see what you're saying but it's not an open wheel car. Not even close.
I disagree. The fenders are only cosmetic. We run them with the formula libre group up here. They are more open wheel than closed wheel, but I see your point.
Regardless, it wouldn't be hard to make a different chassis that was more "openwheel". The drivetrain and suspension are stupid single and yet effective. They use common radius rods for the suspension so spares are all the same.
Some good ideas there but...
I'm confusedLooks like you would be settling for much less and for the same money as FE. Plus FE already exists.
I'm not intimately familiar with MC motors nor am I anywhere close to an engineer but just how much more reliable are they at 150hp vs 165hp? I understand your knocking off 3k rpm of the hp/torque curve but it's still being put in a tough spot by pushing a 1200 lbs 4 wheel car around a race track at constant high speed and strain for long periods of time. Not exactly what they were designed for.
I race communist race cars.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling, there are rules." - Walter Sobchak
Open Wheel Miata
But that isn't FE cost. FE is $55k+
Can you get a really nice FE for less than $25k? How many sets of tires would you use in a competitive season? How much is a set of tires? You need wets too. How much is a front wing to replace? How much is an engine rebuild? How much is a gearbox rebuild? I'm not knocking FE it's just not an entry level car. At last at the budget I'm looking at. I can see one FE car at $26k and the rest are $30k +. If (and its a big IF) my concept car existed you could buy one new and have $10k left over compared to a used FE. And have lower running costs.
A stock Hayabusa should last just fine, and knocking the revs down should make it bullet proof. No track fuel nonsense either. Pump gas will work just fine.
I understand the merits of FE, it just doesn't float my boat!
Your concept car was 20 k plus the cost of the engine from what I read above. Is that an assembled car with data less engine as noted? What would the engine cost be & the cost of installation approx? I think you are back over 30K aren't we? Still an inexpensive purpose built race car, just trying to figure out the dollar amount the car would cost someone like me who has no ability to assemble a car.
Steve Bamford
Already Exists
The car you are describing already exists. Go buy a Thunder Roadster. That is what you have just described. Don't like the motor in the Thunder Roadster.... pull it out and put a Hayabusa in there.
You are joking I presume?
The problems with FE. Aside from the issues listed below they are a very nice mid speed open wheel car.Some good ideas there but...
I'm confused
I'm not intimately familiar with MC motors nor am I anywhere close to an engineer but just how much more reliable are they at 150hp vs 165hp? I understand your knocking off 3k rpm of the hp/torque curve but it's still being put in a tough spot by pushing a 1200 lbs 4 wheel car around a race track at constant high speed and strain for long periods of time. Not exactly what they were designed for.
1. They are a very nice race car but definitely NOT a starter car.
2. If you want a new car get ready to shell out about $60k. I am not sure if any new un-assembled cars even exist.
3. No potential for growth. There are a total of about 100 cars in the entire USA. A new one would be $60K (my estimate). Sell me a new kit for $20K and I will buy one tomorrow.
4. Crash one and then tell me about the cost to race.
5. They are NOT a little to no maintenance car, especially if you want to race at the front.
I expect that the min weight for an MC powered car would be about 1050-1100 lbs and that is just so the big guys who weigh close to 250lbs can make minimum weight.
Our current 600cc Blade weighs in at 700 lbs w/o driver. So with a very simple 800lb car you can have a min weight of 1050 lbs and fit in a 250lb driver.
Thanks ... Jay Novak
313-445-4047
On my 54th year as an SCCA member
with a special thanks to every SCCA worker (NONE OF US WOULD RACE WITHOUT THE WORKERS)
Only one of the ugliest race cars ever built and stone slow on a road racing course.
Thanks ... Jay Novak
313-445-4047
On my 54th year as an SCCA member
with a special thanks to every SCCA worker (NONE OF US WOULD RACE WITHOUT THE WORKERS)
This is just the early stages of planning a car like this, but I take your point. I don't believe that you wouldn't have the ability to assemble a car, perhaps not the time? Either way this car needs to be track ready for less than $25k. It may well not be possible which is why it doesn't exist. I'm just trying to explore the possibility that it is doable.
Would you be interested in a ready to run car with this level of performance for $25k? This is all hypothetical of course, but let's assume the class exists. Not necessarily within SCCA but that's another topic.
$55k??? Where in the world was an FE for sale for that?
A good example litterally just sold for $20k a couple weeks ago. Had a few events on the motor but I'd be willing to bet it was within a couple hp of a new motor. THe gear box had a recent refresh if IIRC.
Jim also sold his for around $20k but it had a few events on the motor. Was still a good car but you would need a refresh to be competitive nationally. Or run it as is regionally. My car had a rebuild about 2 years ago and the bill was $3800 from SCCA-E. Thats one refresh in it's 10 year history. My recent dyno showed 171rwhp which is about as strong as they get.
I bought mine for around $28 or so but it had just had the gearbox serviced and had a recent motor rebuild and has all the upgrades (minus floating rotors). It also came with three sets of wheels with mounted rains and two mounted sets of practice slicks.
An FE for $25k+ should be well maintained, have full documentation, and a relatively low number of events on the motor/gearbox. Relatively low number of events in FE is under 20 weekends... This level of car should also be able to win the Runoffs with the right driver ( as long as his name is Scott )
Some of the more expensive FE's have been meticulously serviced, have ALL upgrades, and are fine examples all around and even include some spares although having spares in not necessary in FE since you can buy them at the track from the CSR's.
I race communist race cars.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling, there are rules." - Walter Sobchak
Steve, I see what cars you race and the support needed. The reality is that you would NEVER be a customer of one of these cars.
We are trying to put a concept together that can actually be done by someone who wants a new entry level open wheel race car that is as fast as any FF car at about 1/3 the cost of a new FF.
I am totally certain that this is possible. If you do not think so please look at the Runoffs qualifying times at Daytona where the fastest field of FF cars every assembled in the USA qualified with the F500 cars.
Thanks ... Jay Novak
313-445-4047
On my 54th year as an SCCA member
with a special thanks to every SCCA worker (NONE OF US WOULD RACE WITHOUT THE WORKERS)
Hi Ben, sorry if I've lost the plot in the 140+ posts so far, but curious how your original reference to Club Ford isn't the answer?
They aren't truly spec, but is there a obviously dominant model, or all of basically equal potential?
Put them on street radials (gasp) or treaded Dunlop/Avon/Hoosier(?) for reasonable tire life.
Mandate a 6x00 rpm limiter to extend the Kent life.
There are countless threads on Apexspeed lamenting the number of CFF out there in garages; why create new classes when 'most' of what you seem to chase exists but just needs "selling" as someone above pointed out.
(full disclosure: yes, I just bought in to CFF as you know) :-)
This is not an FE discussion!
But.... What spec is a $25k FE? You mention the $35k+ cars with all the upgrades. What upgrades? Why would I buy a $25k car if it didn't have what ever these upgrades are? It's a spec car or it's not.
Plus from recent experience one persons used car us another persons piece of junk. New is new.
Anyway, enough about FE. It's not what this thread is about.
For sure if there are big competitive fields I would run in it. It would need to have its own run group as currently there is options in F1600, F2000, FA & now F4 with their own run group. I am sure other options but those were ones I could run in with the exception of FA due to costs/preference.
Tire concept you have I really like, parts need to be as "off the shelf" as they could possibly be to keep costs down.
Also need to kill a few classes that are out there as too many options. When guys from Spec Miata or other classes look at open wheel girds it sure would be confusing as to who is running in what class.
Steve Bamford
A new FE is over 55k.
We are talking available cars. There are only so many FE around. A hundred total or so were made. Many of those cars no longer exist (I have been around a few written off and know of many more that are gone as well). There is a limited pool of cars if you want to have good growth of a class and people often want new cars. Silly at times, but used cars alone can't grow a class.
(Agreed---this isn't and FE discussion)
*(and, I had one for what, four years? I know the FE and operating costs quite well)
Used FE race cars are a great value, and there is no doubt about that.
However, Please tell me where to buy a new one and what will the price be?
If any class is to grow it needs new cars and new customers and FE is NOT an entry level race car.
Thanks ... Jay Novak
313-445-4047
On my 54th year as an SCCA member
with a special thanks to every SCCA worker (NONE OF US WOULD RACE WITHOUT THE WORKERS)
Hi Ian,
I love old formula fords. They're pretty much perfect for vintage racing and SCCA within Club Ford and more than likely I'll be racing one next year. But they are still a niche interest car and again from previous experience it's a total lottery on buying one. A 30-40 year old car is going to have some scars at best. At worst it's junk.
A really good vintage Ford is still around $20k used.
I started this thread as a thought experiment more than anything else, but some interesting thoughts and information has come from it.
Too many options
I still go back to my post about too many options out there for racers...
Steve with One Formula doing a great job of getting decent FE grids and seemingly growing again this year based on info posted.
Formula Race Promotions with F1600, F2000, FA running single run groups
Anderson with entry level racing right up to Indy Lights.
SCCA Pro now offering F4 with lots of money behind it to promote.
SCCA Club with alphabet soup classes
Many more I could continue to list all competing for the same racers.
With that said, Uber has come in & changed the passenger short transportation system, with technology but mainly by reducing the costs more then anything else from what I see. Can you create a super low cost car that also has a super low cost operating expense?
Steve Bamford
My daughter already has one...
I race communist race cars.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling, there are rules." - Walter Sobchak
Steve increase in entries is in one area of the country. He is to be commended for what he has accomplished.
To your question. Yes.
Thanks ... Jay Novak
313-445-4047
On my 54th year as an SCCA member
with a special thanks to every SCCA worker (NONE OF US WOULD RACE WITHOUT THE WORKERS)
People throw those things out all of the time so you could get one real cheap. What motor would we use? Could be fun!
Ed
I've already said I don't like the Chunder RoadsterMy daughter already has one...
This would be considered a sedan wouldn't it?My daughter already has one...
Steve Bamford
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