Multiple Chassis Manufacturers?
So, like, there is more than one group pursuing this sort of "Open Wheel Miata"? Is that what I'm reading? And if so, is thought being given to some sort of coordination or agreement on baseline specs so that if this dream really happens - a decades old dream, I might add - the disparity between designs is not so great as to dash hopes of a general and highly desirable parity? Just sayin'......
Nahhh.. I think we just come in after a couple of seasons of competition, and implement engine restrictors. It works so well in FB.Originally Posted by John Merriman
</sarc>
all very reasonable questions and comments. So is the car really $25k but the first 20 get it for $20k or do the first 20 get it for $20k and then it jumps to $40k??? I think people can live with idea of a slight discount to get the class rolling but it important to know where the price is going to really be when the first 20 are sold.
what I really think you should do (not to tell you your business) is offer first 20 at $20k to each region.... I'd think you'd have an explosion of a class. The next thing is to really think about the powerplant. 600 or 1000 are equally fine (I'd prefer the 1000) but the more important thing would be the supply of new motors. Would Honda sell crate 600's a reasonable price??? I bet they probably would.
"If you're not driving on the edge you're taking up too much space.... "
Whoo-Ho! Sounds like it's all but built!
So this will be a:
cost-limiting,
fun,
faster than FV (maybe FF),
entry-level (?),
sport-growing,
open wheel race car.
With optional P2 body!
Something you may build as a kit, or get complete as a roller. Engine may be 600cc may grow to 1000, sounds like zero-ed in on chain-drive, and tires seem to be "settled." Purchase price may be somewhere, near $20k - with/without discount - but don't tarry, you might miss out.
But don't worry, there may/may not be a classification for the car.
What say, we pack up the station wagon and all head over to Abilene?
Nahh. Maybe I'll just head to the garage, fire up the angle grinder, cut the side pods off the ex-sports racer renault, fold a new body, and have a freken-franken-formula car. (But, first I gotta get off this sailboat...)
Let see; orders for 20 cars, sounds like a start from a production stand-point. Build some chassis jigs, make some body molds, and lay on some materials. But, what will be the national/regional distribution? How long before there is a reasonable field for competetion? SRF having 800+ nationally makes for a good showing at most events (but, it did take a while and had HQ's blessings). Spec Miata too.
gcoffin:
Spec Miata is popular because it has the perception of a level playing field, a low cost to get involved, low operating expense, and an emphasis on the drivers ability.
Sports Renault/SRF was a success because it has a level playing field, an acceptable cost to get involved, low operating costs, and an emphasis on the drivers ability.
Both operate under strict specifications and rely on the use of mass produced parts.
Both are over weight, underpowered, mechanically simple, with huge power loss due to excess rotational mass, have massive unsprung weight issues, and basically from an engineering view point they are pretty abysmal.
However, this is exactly why the racing is so close and attracts so many people. Simply put you lose less ground in underpowered cars based on driver error/ability than in faster classes.
When I first started following this thread, I was considering how well an updated, sexier looking, SCCA compliant version of the Formula Banshee might meet the intent of the original poster. AJ Pugliese with Formula Haus was focused on many of the same objectives when he developed the Banshee. Not so many years ago Formula Haus was selling the Banshee, out the door, ready to race, for $13,000. Larry Oliver, a long time SCCA formula ford racer and FF technical expert test drove the Banshee and posted his observations on this forum. He seemed very impressed with the Banshee and likened it's feel and performance to FF in many ways. Recently Don Jones posted his observations about the quality of his newly acquired Banshee as well as details and his surprise at the very low $749.00 he recently spent for engine work.
Obviously, this thread is moving in another direction which seems very exciting. I wanted however to throw this out as another alternative.
This thread isn't moving in a different direction for me. I started the thread looking to spec out an 'open wheel Miata' and that's still my focus. The Phoenix is a great car but doesn't fit what I'm looking for.
You're referring to the car in post #402 ?
What aspect comes up short?
That car looks to me to be a less-complex F1000 at <40% the purchase cost of front running FF, and <$ to run as well?
Perhaps AJ can share some detailed information about the Banshee.
(engine/transmission/suspension/brakes/wheels/current cost purchase/current cost to maintain/changes to run in FS with SCCA/etc)
It could very well be a better fit.
I've followed this thread from the beginning... and it appears there are multiple groups going in different directions. In order for the idea to be successful, a rule set needs to be agreed upon before anything is built. If not, we'll have a bunch of (relatively) cheap cars that aren't compatible with each other...
The Phoenix car looks interesting, but can other cars be designed and built to that spec for the same cost? Rushing into production will either force everyone else's hand or (more likely) will be just another spec car for whoever buys them...
Ty Handke
HMST Inc.
seems to me that the specs should be inline with FB (so it's easy to move up in the same chassis). Also, it would automatically bring a bunch of builders (including FC, FF chassis and home built conversions) into the mix relatively easy. Just spec out the expensive crap.
I'd make it real simple:
- Rules stating builders must sell $25k or less
- Car must be raced in stock trim (maybe with the exception of data system)
- use all measurement specs that FB does
- no wings or diffuser (maybe a diffuser, they aren't very expensive)
- spec 600cc engine or dumbed down 1000cc (probably the 1000cc)
- paddle shift system?? , I'm on the fence because I love mine. (so do a lot of people including kids) . I bet it would bring a bigger crowd into the mix. Maybe an inexpensive paddle shifter system could be sourced out (under $2k)
- inexpensive (but decent) spec tires that can last a few weekends.
- it would be nice if everyone entered in a race would pay an extra $50 towards price money. would make it that much more interesting.
"If you're not driving on the edge you're taking up too much space.... "
JP do you have a spy in our shop?
You nailed it.
We've spec'd this car with off the shelf street car parts at all the corners to reduce costs. Think parts you can get through almost any auto parts store. Same thing for the wheels.
Gary Hickman
Edge Engineering Inc
FB #76
Paddle shifters are cool and desirable, but if they are $2k and unnecessary, better to restrict to a cable or rods and save everyone $1,900. (my old guy, old school opinion)
You can have cable and rod paddle shifting. The devil is in how you write the rules.
Jm
I agree. Perhaps it is the electronic shifters that should be avoided.
Read the F600 rules for shifting in the GCR section for F500. Done deal.
Thanks ... Jay Novak
313-445-4047
On my 54th year as an SCCA member
with a special thanks to every SCCA worker (NONE OF US WOULD RACE WITHOUT THE WORKERS)
I'll take one of Dustin's / Gary's car. Recommend use 600cc engine. Where does the line start?
This is exactly what I had in mind years ago in discussions with Steve.
A couple comments from my experience with FB rules:
- ECU: Is reflashing allowed? When I first ran my 06 R1 with unreflashed ECU, I was quite surprised that a friend of mine with a 06 GSXR had his ECU reflashed. In the propsoed ruleset, recommend specify one way or the other. (At the time, my 06 R1 unreflashed pulled almost exactly the same as his reflashed GSXR.)
- Body width: I recommend FC body width. If you go with FB width, everyone will be working toward trying to obtain downforce with that huge surface area. Even without a diffuser, small changes in the floor contours can result in big changes in downforce. So... recommend FC body width. A good FB diffuser is about $1000. Is that what you want?
- Restrictors: Pick one size up front for all engines. What size? 100max HP? 115 max? Not sure of the current 600cc engine rules for F5 is big enough??? Maybe. Also pick the 3 or 4 specific engines and update that list annually by every 30th of June for the following year. (I propose 600cc engine). Max weight with driver at 1000 lbs or 1050 lbs?
- Pick a max width of the entire car like we did in FB. 72"
- Shifters: I built a couple mechanical rod type shifters for my FB. They were cheap and worked wonderfully. I can see the fun factor with paddles though at significant increased cost. Just make sure the rule language is specific.
- Pick rim width - up to 6" front and up to 8" rear - or specify the rims. Steel is cheap, but aluminum may be the better choice.
There's a lot more, but this might be a start.
It's an interesting idea, and I love the fact that it can be upgraded as time and money allows to become a FB car. Only problem is, it doesn't solve any of the problems that are preventing people from joining open wheel racing.
-It has no class, meaning yet another open wheel alphabet soup class needs to be created and will be put into the already bad run groups in SCCA. People are competitive and running in FS is not a good idea with the potential for F3 cars to show up. No one likes mixed class racing.
-It will likely draw people from the other classes (FV, CF, older FF and FC), so it will only further dilute those classes. Poor participation means all open wheel classes are in the same run group in some regions. Again no one likes mixed class racing.
-It's an open wheel car, meaning people have SCCA and that's the only venue to race the car. The best thing about a Spec Miata is you could race it literally wherever you want. SCCA, NASA, enduros, track day, autocross, time trial etc. Most of those other events are a better experience than SCCA and/or cheaper.
-It's not street legal. Let's face it, an open wheel car sits in the garage for ~350 days a year for most people. What fun is that when a cool street car you can at least drive to work every day.
The root causes of why people don't race open wheel is because it's crazy expensive, SCCA on the whole sucks compared to alternatives, and people don't want a car that is going to sit in the garage collecting dust for 95% of the year. Building a cool, scaled-down FB car doesn't address the root causes of any of those problems. Plus people have families or student loans or whatever and there's a million other cool things to blow money on that are cheaper and just as fun as racing. I've raced my FV in 40 some races since 2011 and those reasons above are part of why it's likely my car is going to sit more and more over the next few years and be reduced to 2-3 weekends a year. The biggest thing I hate about having an open wheel car is having to spend $1000 any time I want to drive it and having it sit collecting dust in my garage for 95% of the year. I could on the other hand have a 911, which I could drive everyday and it would only cost me $2.30 a gallon to drive it whenever and wherever I want. Those are the problems preventing people from racing open wheel and need addressed, the focus shouldn't be on building a new car.
don't throw out the shifter dealy-o yet, there are a lot of people that this would appeal to. I think that a good reliable shifter can be developed for much less than the $2k. Maybe a combination of cables and some simple electronics . I think between Jay, Gary and a few other very smart people it can be done for under a grand.
going down the line point by point:
- if the point is to be able to get into FB at some point then FB width it should be. Also, you can get excellent diffusers for $500-600 from Mike Beauchamp and I'm sure others. You are talking about a car without wings, it would be nice to have some downforce....no?
- not opposed to a 600cc engine but will it be able to push around a car that will be must larger than the F600 and still be fun to drive. Also, a restricted 1000c will be very reliable and if you ever want to get into FB you just unrestrict it. Plus the existing FB chassis that can potentially also be used for this class are all designed around the 1000cc engine. Also, 1050lbs is heavy and going to be hard to get to that weight. All the new cars in FB now are having a hard time getting to 1000lbs they are so light and they have wings and things
- I've never seen or heard of any mechanical shifters on an MC engine car work wonderfully. Yeah they can work, but wonderfully.....that's a stretch.
I'm confused with what your point is. Yeah it's open wheel, that's what everyone on this thread want's, not a Miata or Porsche or anything like a street car. People here have already accepted the fact that they will be spending money on racing only a few weeks a year, they just want to do it as cheap as possible so they can race more weekends a year. What you want is an everyday driver that you can trackday car not a race car, that's something different then what's being discussed here. And BTW I don't know one of my friends that race Miata's or any other production race car and use them on the street.
"If you're not driving on the edge you're taking up too much space.... "
Will the performance be consistent with the look or will this smoking hot looking, sweet sounding 600cc race car be slower than many of the less exciting (look and sound) cars with which it could be sharing a track?
mechanical shifters
JP,
You need to drive a JDR. The shifter is mechanical......and it works very well....at least on a Suzuki. Ask Loshak, Mayer, Thielman, Livingston or Vardis. They all have lap records using it.
The trick is to minimize friction.....and mass...... in the system. Ours has needle bearings everywhere...and uses very thin wall tubing to minimize mass....no cables.
I agree with Rob on the floor width. Keep it FC width to avoid aero development cost.
Spec all the expensive stuff....and some demesion limits....and let anyone build a car who wants to. You may get some one offs.....like in the early DSR days. By expensive stuff, I mean hubs, uprights, brakes, wheels, shocks, fuel cell. Use production car pieces as much as possible. It has worked for FV for years.
Jerry
I'm guessing slower than the 875 lb w/driver F600, which have lap times about equal to FF, since it would be wider overall and have larger, heavier wheels/tires. Maybe the 750cc would be more suitable. There's more than 20 GSXR750 engines on ebay at this time + other brands.
Scott Woodruff
83 RT5 Ralt/Scooteria Suzuki Formula S
(former) F440/F5/FF/FC/FA
65 FFR Cobra Roadster 4.6 DOHC
The point is not to target the people already on this forum, because obviously they already bought into the open wheel idea. Wasn't the original topic how to get new people involved? Yes the original topic meant to target new people with a Miata like car but I don't believe that is the best approach.
Chris;
Your first question was probably asked decades ago by people your age then. That was when someone old codger with experience in sail boats built a single seat race car from a bunch of 40 HP Bug parts. At the time we had FA, FB, FC and F Junior. Add to that sports racers and all the production and sedan cars, what did SCCA need with another class.
But the idea caught on and FV became the biggest single class by the early 70's. Colin Chapman took the FV idea a step further and built the first FF. By the mid 70's we were adding over 100 cars per year to the FF inventory. Spec Racers never matched either the numbers of FV or FF in their hay days. And if it took millions of dollars of SCCA money to make SRF the success it is today. That is money in addition to the money individual owners of the Spec Racers spent.
As I am posting this, there are at least 3 and possibly as many as 5 examples of cars being built that meets the goals, somewhat, outlined in this thread. We all aren't fools and we have fall back positions for our projects. Example, my car can be changed into a FF by just changing the parts behind the roll bar or an FB if I want to stay with the bike engine.
Yes SCCA does not have a class for this type car, other than FS at the regional level. If we use 1000 cc bike engines, the car can run as an FB. Nothing in the rule book says that you have to have wings.
My personal goal with this car is to build something that is so close to FF times that it will fill an otherwise dwindling group of race cars. And have a car at a FV cost level.
This class will drive itself because it is a good or fail as many other attempts have. If it is a good idea, it will be self funded by the participants and that includes owners, drivers and those that supply the toys to make this class possible. FV did not have any outside funding before it became a mega class world wide.
As to your second comment about dual purpose street cars. When my youngest son finished his plebe year at the Air Force Academy, I rented track time and got a friend to bring his FV to the track for my kid to blast around in. I was proud that he got within 10 seconds of the track record that day. He was talking about a Corvette or Porsche as a street car. Aside from rewarding him for completing a very tough year, I wanted to make a point. For way less money that either of the 2 cars he wanted, he could have a FV, a trailer, and a nice tow car that served as his daily transport for way less money than his dream cars. And he will never get the satisfaction from the driving experience that he would with a proper race car. And that goes for semi street stock Miata on the track.
451
Post 451
JP do you have a spy in our shop?
You nailed it.
Does this imply an open source design? If so when would the chassis specs be made available.
Could it be that the current generation simply has no desire for a proper track driving experience?
Brian
I think it has more to do with simple economics and lack of knowledge with open wheel cars that combine to create the current situation.
Mark
Name?
Ok what do you call it?
FS600 ( Formula Super 600) Like FV and FSV in the day. Keeps the SCCA FS prefix
Name?
Formula LoCost or FL
Out here in the west, that would conflict with "Formula Libre" in the ICSCC groups.
No no no, not FL. That would prevent propagation of the class. Google French Letter
FZ, formula zero
"If you're not driving on the edge you're taking up too much space.... "
I think we're a couple centuries early for F-Zero...
How about electric
How about making it an electric class?
There are more and more solutions becoming available and it could drastically reduce maintenance costs as well as interest not only new and younger people, but it has marketing advantages in this day and age too.
Take a look at this motorcycle.
57hp and 107lb/ft
Partnering up with a company like this, or even larger like a Tesla, may be a win for everyone involved.
The range at 70mph makes me think at full-torque-all-the-time, you're not going to finish a 50mile race...57hp and 107lb/ft
Just do the Formula E thing. Get *2* cars, and do a "swap cars" pit stop.
agreed, a bike that gets only an 86 mile range on the highway, using what, 10hp and a fraction of its max torque, will get squat for range at max output all the time in a race ....
someone will say regenerative braking, but then the $20k discussion is WAY gone :-)
E formula racer
yes the races may have to be shortened up a bit at first until battery technology catches up.
There is a guy that converted 2 SRF and has been running them, still under development….
Someone listed a 1050 weight, is that race weight or without driver? Keep in mind that lighter is better in a lot of ways. At a 700 or 800 lbs without gas, I can probably roll it up onto a harbor freight trailer and pull it with the passenger car I already have. At 1000+ all that goes out the window, and I'm adding a vehicle and probably an expensive trailer. You've just added another $10,000 at least to the entry price, rather than $500 that also provides a solution on how to get sheets of plywood home.
Patrick Cleary
As a relative new guy, I believe I have some thoughts I would like to add. I have read every post up to this point. As a crew man, I have had this same discussion many times with my team. I want a kit type car with some parts that I can replace locally or even from a scrap yard in a pinch. I need to be able to afford it on a teacher's salary, without making the family live on Top Roman.
Our race team is in the lucky position of racing in two different medium. We run vintage formula cars and also desert race cars. Desert racing has seen some substantial growth in a few key areas that apply directly to this thread. The first is a group called Jeepspeed. It is a basic Cherokee outfitted with a bunch of spec parts. The class has a ton of contingency money from Jeep and (I think) BFG tires. A fellow and his kid can go online, order a bunch of parts, buy a ragged out Jeep, and go tear hell across the desert ( sounds like SM to me) The other, more substantial growth in off-road has been seen in UTV racing. Anyone can go down to the local motorcycle shop, buy a brand new side by side, and outfit it to race. The parts needed can be bought off the shelf or ordered online. This would translate to a "formula class", anyone can build/sell parts, as long as they meet the spec. The manufacturers of the side by sides and the aftermarket are providing very nice contingency packages. A guy no longer has to build or buy a super expensive and technical off-road car to be on the same course as Robby Gordon. The fields are growing rapidly and are now even seeing some crossover into rock racing.
The reason I mention the UTV thing, is that there are already a ton of builders in this class. They build everything from chassis, arms, axles, brakes, etc. If this new formula car was drawn up to get close to some of their parameters, maybe we could utilize them for replacement parts and such.. I would never suggest a CVT drive system, but it seems like many of the other parts could be used. Another turn key option may be found here http://crosskartsusa.com/. I have run into Toni, at Fontana autocross. He has the cars and runs a solid series in Finland. Currently he is trying import or build in the US. Last time we spoke, his prices were very close to a new side by side.
Im no engineer. I'm just really interested in a car that I can actually afford to race and that turns me on when I go out to the garage and look at it. If Inam outside of my pay grade or way off track, please ignore and good luck. I will be following this post.
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