Open Wheel Miata

[captaineddie1975]

Maybe you don't like F500 but there is a great car for sale on Apexspeed that Mike Brent drove, Joe Wolf drove, I drove, Nick Thomas drove and others drove to some success. I used it to learn how to drive one for one year (2006)then sold it. It is for sale with trailer and a lot of spares(see ad) for a very reasonable price. My expense was approx $1000 or less per race. My wife is an excellent cook and we sometimes slept in the trailer or back of the pickup. I bought one new set of tires and then used sets. I did almost all my own work on the car and my wife helped(she wasn't afraid to get her hands dirty) It can be done. A low cost way of getting some racing experience in formula open wheel cars.

[Wright D]

here is a car Gary and I can build for the cost targets.
It features:
Fiber glass body work with color in the gel coat, and Kevlar side intrusion panels.
Steel space frame
Inboard shocks
Indent rear suspension and open diff
Circle racing steel wheels (aluminum 100$ wheels pictured)
AND...it is scale-able...you can turn it into a F1000 with bolt on parts should you wanna go faster and move up a class or two.

[Jnovak]

here is a car Gary and I can build for the cost targets.
It features:
Fiber glass body work with color in the gel coat, and Kevlar side intrusion panels.
Steel space frame
Inboard shocks
Indent rear suspension and open diff
Circle racing steel wheels (aluminum 100$ wheels pictured)
AND...it is scale-able...you can turn it into a F1000 with bolt on parts should you wanna go faster and move up a class or two.

What is the actual price Dustin. Assembled, a kit, an engine? More info please. Count me in if the price is right.

[Wright D]

What is the actual price Dustin. Assembled, a kit, an engine? More info please.

$25,000 with a GSXR600
$20,000 as a roller
Owner installs data system/dash.

[Jnovak]

$25,000 with a GSXR600
$20,000 as a roller
Owner installs data system/dash.

A fabulous car as always Dustin.

The target car has always been with a 1000cc engine. Will a 1000cc engine fit? If so when can I expect delivery after a deposit is received? I am serious.

Technical questions, in particular, what the roller includes.

What are the wheels including the size?

What are the tires?

What are the calipers?

What are the shocks?

Is this the same chassis as your F1000?

Will this chassis require a stressed oil pan like your current Phoenix?

What is the wheelbase?

What is the overal width?

What is the weight of the completed car, with engine?

Does this include a fire system?

Seat belts?

Chassis wiring harness?

What are the shocks?

Battery?

[SEComposites]

This could be mega at that kit price. Stick Toyos on it, rev limited 1000 and you have a series. I'd be in!

[Spengo]

here is a car Gary and I can build for the cost targets.
It features:
Fiber glass body work with color in the gel coat, and Kevlar side intrusion panels.
Steel space frame
Inboard shocks
Indent rear suspension and open diff
Circle racing steel wheels (aluminum 100$ wheels pictured)
AND...it is scale-able...you can turn it into a F1000 with bolt on parts should you wanna go faster and move up a class or two.

That's pretty damn sexy.

[Jim Nash]

This could be mega at that kit price. Stick Toyos on it, rev limited 1000 and you have a series. I'd be in!

I don't see a "roller" as a kit. I am not sure what it all includes but the price is right!

Damn, and I just sold a GSXR600 engine I had bought a couple years ago!

Jim

[formulasuper]

Maybe you don't like F500 but there is a great car for sale on Apexspeed that Mike Brent drove, Joe Wolf drove, I drove, Nick Thomas drove and others drove to some success. I used it to learn how to drive one for one year (2006)then sold it. It is for sale with trailer and a lot of spares(see ad) for a very reasonable price. My expense was approx $1000 or less per race. My wife is an excellent cook and we sometimes slept in the trailer or back of the pickup. I bought one new set of tires and then used sets. I did almost all my own work on the car and my wife helped(she wasn't afraid to get her hands dirty) It can be done. A low cost way of getting some racing experience in formula open wheel cars.

That's just what we thought Eddie and why it's no longer for sale.

[Branzat]

...AND...it is scale-able...you can turn it into a F1000 with bolt on parts should you wanna go faster and move up a class or two.[/QUOTE]

Formula Starter with 1000cc and the "correct" wheel base for F1000 - learn to drive properly without the aid of aero.

After 5 years of raises and promotions at work, buy the wings, trays and other bits and race F1000 or buy full body and race p2.

[gcoffin]

I think the original post was why is spec Miata so successful and why is there no open wheel equivalent.

Not what can we build for 20k.

Spec Miata is popular because it has the perception of a level playing field, a low cost to get involved, low operating expense, and an emphasis on the drivers ability.

Sports Renault/SRF was a success because it has a level playing field, an acceptable cost to get involved, low operating costs, and an emphasis on the drivers ability.

Both operate under strict specifications and rely on the use of mass produced parts.

Both are over weight, underpowered, mechanically simple, with huge power loss due to excess rotational mass, have massive unsprung weight issues, and basically from an engineering view point they are pretty abysmal.

However, this is exactly why the racing is so close and attracts so many people. Simply put you lose less ground in underpowered cars based on driver error/ability than in faster classes.

The fact is, based on majors participation, the further away you get from low power and mass produced parts the fewer cars in class....it is a fact

SM and SRF differ in a couple of important ways. First one is a readily available production chassis that can be capitalized in installments over time, the other is not. Second one was the result of a grass roots movement and the other of a combined corporate/sanctioning body mandate. Third SRF has a sealed drive train.

So as stated earlier if we want to have an entry level open wheel race car it will not be fast or elegant in its design (say 12 to 15 lbs per hp). It will need to fit and make weight with 250 lbs of driver. Have side pods as part of the square tube frame and be capable of mowing through 50 feet of scoth broom, leaping a ditch, consuming a large 3 inch diameter tree branch, being brought back on a hook and being ready to race the next session with only minor repair of the sportscar nose and a check but no adjustment to the line up. It will need corporate funding to offset the cost of producing the first 300 plus cars and a mandate from a national sanctioning body. Sealed motors and sealed transmissions that are capable of a minimum of 10,000 miles of racing. Purpose built parts will be limited to a-arms, and shift linkage hung on a spec tube frame. I figure 8-10 million in outside funding would make it happen.

The build it and they will come model may well result in some really cool cars but.......

Has anyone seen Water World lately?

[reidhazelton]

here is a car Gary and I can build for the cost targets.
It features:
Fiber glass body work with color in the gel coat, and Kevlar side intrusion panels.
Steel space frame
Inboard shocks
Indent rear suspension and open diff
Circle racing steel wheels (aluminum 100$ wheels pictured)
AND...it is scale-able...you can turn it into a F1000 with bolt on parts should you wanna go faster and move up a class or two.

If this can be offered for $25k with engine and it just needs a dash, and can be later turned into an FB with bolt-ons, why do FB's cost 3x more? Are the wings $20k each?

What am I missing here?

Very interested.

[Daryl DeArman]

Just a guess:

Wings
Shock package
Brake package
Engine package

Most importantly: What the market is willing to pay for a F1000 car.

[reidhazelton]

Just a guess:

Wings
Shock package
Brake package
Engine package

Most importantly: What the market is willing to pay for a F1000 car.

I thought through it before I asked, but I assumed the same you did. It didn't make sense so I asked as I am really curious.

Wings - $1,000 each
Diffusor - $1000
Shocks - $12k
Calipers - (even is you went with the most expensive PFCs) $3600
Rotors - (Again, most expensive) $800
Engine - It's there already, just pull the restrictor out.
Shifter (does a standard Phoenix come with one or is it just a stick shifter?)

Not even subtracting the cost of the 'standard' parts, that is only $19,400. Where is the other $12-20k go?

Unless upgrading would be very expensive or yield a dog of an FB car.

Not throwing stones, I'm very interested and curious.

[ghickman]

If this can be offered for $25k with engine and it just needs a dash, and can be later turned into an FB with bolt-ons, why do FB's cost 3x more? Are the wings $20k each?

What am I missing here?

Very interested.

Reid
This is a valid question and we figured this would come up. There are too many things to list that make the difference between a $30k FB and a $65k FB. Just the data system in the car we have for sale on Apex costs over $8k and the Geartronics $9k. The shocks also add another $13k.

I'm trying to run at the pointy end of the FB field and feel I need these for a competitive edge. I'm not alone on this.

Our new FS car that is scalable to an FB has many places where we felt costs could be reduced most obvious are wings, diffuser, underwing, replacing 4130 tubing for mild steel, open differential, bolt on wheels, brakes, non floating rotors, steering rack etc.

Our thought process on this is to bring more drivers into the bike engine powered cars and also make it a transition class to FB. We also feel that with the addition of a sports car body this could also be a P2 car.

We will have all of our specifications and engine options detailed next week. We need to fill at least orders for 20 cars to make this happen.

Anyone that has seen the quality of the fit and finish of the Edge Engineering built cars can attest to our ability to make this happen. This is where we shine.

[John]

More Costs
The wings are more than $1000 more like 3-4k when you add the stronger nose and rear mounting system
Wheels at least $3k per set
Data system 3-5k
Shifter system 3k
Diff $3k
The brakes might be more if you went to radial mounted calipers and floating rotors

You may want Aero A-arms instead of round ones $3k
One nut hubs $2500

But you would not have to spend it all at once if you wanted to upgrade, and adding volume will likely bring the price down overall. Also I bet kits for the upgrades would be available with different wing packages.

[reidhazelton]

Reid
This is a valid question and we figured this would come up. There are too many things to list that make the difference between a $30k FB and a $65k FB. Just the data system in the car we have for sale on Apex costs over $8k and the Geartronics $9k. The shocks also add another $13k.

I'm trying to run at the pointy end of the FB field and feel I need these for a competitive edge. I'm not alone on this.

Our new FS car that is scalable to an FB has many places where we felt costs could be reduced most obvious are wings, diffuser, underwing, replacing 4130 tubing for mild steel, open differential, bolt on wheels, brakes, non floating rotors, steering rack etc.

Our thought process on this is to bring more drivers into the bike engine powered cars and also make it a transition class to FB. We also feel that with the addition of a sports car body this could also be a P2 car.

We will have all of our specifications and engine options detailed next week. We need to fill at least orders for 20 cars to make this happen.

Thanks Gary! I appreciate the answer. When you have the details, please do post them. I am interested and I know many others would be also. I think Jay nailed most of what we are looking to know.

Best of luck with the project.

Not to get to far ahead...but if this does work out, where do we run them? I'm looking for competition and if I can't have a place to run against the Sargis, Ebben, Coello, Rubenzer, Novak, type folks then it's a harder sell. Not looking for a track car.

[TDI PILOT]

I thought through it before I asked, but I assumed the same you did. It didn't make sense so I asked as I am really curious.

Wings - $1,000 each
Diffusor - $1000
Shocks - $12k
Calipers - (even is you went with the most expensive PFCs) $3600
Rotors - (Again, most expensive) $800
Engine - It's there already, just pull the restrictor out.
Shifter (does a standard Phoenix come with one or is it just a stick shifter?)

Not even subtracting the cost of the 'standard' parts, that is only $19,400. Where is the other $12-20k go?

Unless upgrading would be very expensive or yield a dog of an FB car.

Not throwing stones, I'm very interested and curious.

There are plenty of differences between this car and a top F1000

-All the items you listed plus a $6000 for a competitive FB engine built by one of the top 3
if you think the top guys are running stock junkyard motors you're wrong.

-Lightweight aluminum wheels
-Lightweight drive shafts
-Air/paddle shifter setup with ignition cutout and throttle blip for DS

And I'm sure there are many more differences. I absolutely love this idea of a car you can scale up to a faster class down the road!

[formulasuper]

.......

.....Not to get to far ahead...but if this does work out, where do we run them? I'm looking for competition and if I can't have a place to run against the Sargis, Ebben, Coello, Rubenzer, Novak, type folks then it's a harder sell. Not looking for a track car.

Formula S

[reidhazelton]

Formula S

I think that would be an issue for some people, me being one of them. Not interested in running a 'run what you brung' catch all class. At that point, it isn't so much about competition as it is lapping since everyone has different cars and no rules.

I know the last thing SCCA needs is another national class, but....

Maybe look outside of SCCA. NASA? Next step on the ladder for the F600 series?

[formulasuper]

I think that would be an issue for some people, me being one of them. Not interested in running a 'run what you brung' catch all class. At that point, it isn't so much about competition as it is lapping since everyone has different cars and no rules.

I know the last thing SCCA needs is another national class, but....

Maybe look outside of SCCA. NASA? Next step on the ladder for the F600 series?

FS runs in the wings & things group, so you'd be on track with a lot of guys qualifying for an invite to the Runoffs; FA, FE, FC, FM, P1, P2.

[John]

If you can get a couple of guys locally, get a regional class set up and run with ff and FV it wont take long.

[ghickman]

Thanks Gary! I appreciate the answer. When you have the details, please do post them. I am interested and I know many others would be also. I think Jay nailed most of what we are looking to know.

Best of luck with the project.

Not to get to far ahead...but if this does work out, where do we run them? I'm looking for competition and if I can't have a place to run against the Sargis, Ebben, Coello, Rubenzer, Novak, type folks then it's a harder sell. Not looking for a track car.

No problem Reid, these are all questions I'd be asking.

At this time there isn't a class for this car other than run in FS. I can tell you with the utmost certainty that with either a 600cc or 1000cc engine in the car it's going to be very fast. This is why we will urging new owners to rev limit the engines down to 150hp or less.

We are spec'ing the car for the Toyo R888 tires. They're priced right and will last a long time on this chassis.

Judging by the number of emails we've gotten from folks it won't be long before there's a class to put them in.

FB (F1000 cars are complex tricky very fast cars). Our goal is to groom a crop of cars that will introduce drivers to M/C power plants and getting the most mechanical grip out of it that you can. Master that then transition to FB. See where I'm going with this?

[Will Velkoff]

Do you have any CAD renderings of the engine bay and rear of the car (especially differential/rear suspension) from some different angles?

[ghickman]

Do you have any CAD renderings of the engine bay and rear of the car (especially differential/rear suspension) from some different angles?

Yes we can supply this.

Those of you that have an interest in this I recommend you contact me via email. The intro price will be for the first 20 cars only.

The first 20 cars sold will come with some incentives that after that will go away.

I can be reached at gary at edgecnc dot com.

My replies back will be brief and you will be added to the growing list of inquires.

[Jnovak]

Gary, sounds like a decent plan. Our original discussions were that this class would be a semi-spec class with very low maintenance race cars. Also the thought have Ben focused on a very limited range of wheel base and maximum width, along with numerous spec components. thus allowing for multiple builders.

Just a couple of big picture thoughts Gary:

Would your car be the same wheelbase and approximate track width of your current FB car?

I do not think that the race community wants a single make spec class.

[Daryl DeArman]

$25,000 with a GSXR600
$20,000 as a roller
Owner installs data system/dash.

Engine - It's there already, just pull the restrictor out.

The 25K figure includes a 600cc GSXR engine.

Not to get to far ahead...but if this does work out, where do we run them? I'm looking for competition and if I can't have a place to run against the Sargis, Ebben, Coello, Rubenzer, Novak, type folks then it's a harder sell. Not looking for a track car.

Simple enough, just convince folks like those mentioned to buy a car and then it won't matter what letters are on the log book cover or the side of the car.

[Daryl DeArman]

In the Phoenix solution example would it be prudent to investigate the other 1000cc model bike engines such as the GSXS, Z1000, or FZ1? If they share the same external geometry as their higher HP brethren they could make for an easier upgrade later. Similar performance to a much higher strung 600 should make them last longer, be cheaper to operate per hour and possibly even easier to drive close to their limit.

Maybe you could restrict them to the 120-130HP level much easier than trying to get the "R" model 1000 bikes to be happy at that same power level.

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

I do like the concept of the 600cc engine in the entry level car rather then the 1000cc as long as the 1000cc engine can still be added at a later date without too much trouble.

What kind of HP numbers will the 600cc put out reliably?

[Jnovak]

I do like the concept of the 600cc engine in the entry level car rather then the 1000cc as long as the 1000cc engine can still be added at a later date without too much trouble.

What kind of HP numbers will the 600cc put out reliably?

100 to 110.

[ghickman]

Currently we have wet pan options for the following:

GSXR600
GSXR1000
ZX10R Gen4

The Phoenix uses a stressed oil pan. Very simple, clean, formula car like design.

The Yamaha R1 is a candidate but as of now won't run outside the bike frame. I won't even touch the BMW its simply too frail.

We also have dry sump options for the above listed but frankly it's not needed at this point.

[RussMcB]

<snip> The intro price will be for the first 20 cars only.

The first 20 cars sold will come with some incentives that after that will go away.

Gary, just sharing. This sent up a little red flag with me.

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

100 to 110.

That sounds perfect to me for the entry level class. Basically should be close to FF times so it would fit into the FF, FV, F500, FST group well. Not sure I would be interested if I had to run it in the alphabet class.

[ghickman]

Gary, just sharing. This sent up a little red flag with me.

So you're not up for a nicer set of belts or some cool machined parts?

That's what incentives are for Russ.

[ghickman]

That sounds perfect to me for the entry level class. Basically should be close to FF times so it would fit into the FF, FV, F500, FST group well.

Yes and remember this car is going to be very light. Think a few hundred less than a FF.

And you'll have a suspension that actually functions like a modern formula car

[Bill Bonow]

Damn, and I just sold a GSXR600 engine I had bought a couple years ago!

Jim

Me too.

I had one with 1200 miles and one tiny scratch on the side cover.

Always a day late and a dollar short on these things

[RussMcB]

So you're not up for a nicer set of belts or some cool machined parts?

That's what incentives are for Russ.

Sorry, I'm confused. I interpreted it to mean if you're in the first group of twenty, the car (roller, kit) would be $20k, but after that people would have to pay more (for the same kit, not with newer, better parts).

I only mention it because I lose excitement if the cost isn't low and stable, at least for a while.

I don't mean to be a fun-sucker. I know a 600cc or 1000cc formula car from you would be a fantastic car. I'm just hoping there might be a car cheap enough for my budget (even if I can't commit to the first group of buyers).

[Christopher Crowe]

Spectacular!

It's hard to believe your car could be done for the price-point, but if it could... I've got to believe it would be a huge winner. MUCH more attractive than any of the out-dated alternative-categories.

Good luck with the project!

Chris Crowe

[Stumpthumper]

Yes we can supply this.

Those of you that have an interest in this I recommend you contact me via email. The intro price will be for the first 20 cars only.

Am i miss reading this? I thought the idea here was a 20k roller, not a 20k for the first 20 people roller? If the price is going to start climbing isn't this the exact opposite of what this thread is trying to get at? Not trying to be difficult, but I can't get excited about this new class if that's the case.
-dave

[SEComposites]

Absolutely. The idea is to produce a car for $20k in kit form. No price creep! There is a group working on this!