To all SCCA Vee Drivers

[charleshearn]

I received a Surveymonkey this morning from SCCA or somebody and I know this will likely draw a firestorm(cleaned up from my original thoughts) of replies, but in case no one is paying attention, WE ALREADY HAVE A SPEC TIRE!! Hoosier is the only one making a racing slick. We sure as hell don't need to be going any slower - forcing the winged cars or SRF's to dart around us once more per race like a moving chicane. I know we go through this every three or four years or so (I can't remember how many times I've seen this since 1999), but C'mon man, put this issue to bed and let's go racing. Buy a new set of tires two or three times a year and manage them. That's all it takes. Trust me, the guys with $$$$ will buy a new set of spec's far more often than the rest. I'm not willing to go slower to save $1,500 - $2,000 a year. Just my 2 cents.

Thank you Hoosier for standing with the Vee community!!

Personally, I think we ought to allow the introduction of the radial tire that Hoosier makes and are on the shelf right now. In case you weren't aware, the Delta Wing car uses fronts that are made from the same tire mold they use to make our tires. Of course they will cost us more than the bias ply tires, but both straight line and cornering speed will be increased significantly. Now that should get everyone going. HAHAHA!!

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to everyone. Hope to see you at the track this year.

Charlie Hearn
FV#37

[Tiago Santos]

[Daryl DeArman]

WE ALREADY HAVE A SPEC TIRE!! Hoosier is the only one making a racing slick.

American Racer makes a race slick. I'm fairly certain you knew that.

I'm not willing to go slower to save $1,500 - $2,000 a year.

Your decision to choose FV over CF or F5 suggests otherwise.

[ajpastore]

American Racer makes a race slick. I'm fairly certain you knew that.




Your decision to choose FV over CF or F5 suggests otherwise.

Mr DeArman, what are you racing right now? As in what kind of car?

[Daryl DeArman]

Right now a Hooker Beladora with a Herman Miller Embody outback.

Prior to that a FV. Prior to the FV, a Crossle 32. What's your point? That somebody not currently racing a FV can't voice an unofficial opinion on the internet.

[ajpastore]

What's your point? That somebody not currently racing a FV can't voice an unofficial opinion on the internet.

Not at all.....just curious.

[Tiago Santos]

I'm not willing to go slower to save $1,500 - $2,000 a year. Just my 2 cents.

Yeah, that's the problem. 2 grand is a lot more than 2 cents for a lot of folks. I understand the elitism. When I raced a vee, I did enjoy bragging to folks who I knew could never afford racing anything.

Another year, another shot in the foot.

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

Charlie, Have you ever driven on a tire other than the Hoosier? Based on your response I would guess no.

How do you quantify slower? The Hoosier is not a spec tire. Additionally it is not the only tire available.

The American racer FV tire is available and has been the choice for many regions for years. Yes, it is slower, maybe 2 seconds a lap compared to the Hoosier. Oh by the way it lasts 20+ heat cycles with virtually no loss of performance and cost 60% of what the Hoosiers cost. Do you really think that 2 sec/lap changes anything in respect to racing on the track with other cars? Well the answer is no. I have lots of data that will show you that the speeds are virtually the same everywhere on the track, yes, there is a slightly less lateral G component but we are talking about maybe one tenth of a second per corner.

This kind of response it exactly what is wrong with FV. FV was suppose to be a blue collar class where one could race on a very low budget. $900.00 tires that loose performance after 6-8 heat cycles is not in the spirit of the class IMHO. Is a spec tire really going to save FV? probably not, Its a different motorsports world that we live in now compared to 20 years ago, but what harm could it do to try it?

[teddale]

Right now a Hooker Beladora with a Herman Miller Embody outback.

Prior to that a FV. Prior to the FV, a Crossle 32. What's your point? That somebody not currently racing a FV can't voice an unofficial opinion on the internet.

Not just in FV going thru his post's you seem to have something to say about most classes

[Daryl DeArman]

I certainly have an opinion about what's right/wrong with most classes. I have raced in 9 different classes over the years.

I am certainly aware that my opinion on here carries zero weight, thus I don't mind sharing it in classes I am not actively involved in. If only to generate discussion and thought.

If/when the time comes to voice my opinion in any official capacity, no matter how small, I make certain it is in a class that I am involved in. Since I started racing 25 years ago I made one exception to my rule and wrote the SCCA regarding F500 MC powered cars. I opened the letter with "I am not a current member" so they could keep reading or file it away. I wrote that letter because I was genuinely excited about the potential of the class and was ready to pull the trigger on a top notch, no excuse effort.

[problemchild]

Attachment 57488
Typical spare wheels and tires for one FV at one race event.

[B Farnham]

If FF can adopt a spec tire then why can't the entry level formula car class? As its been said many times before our class is more price concious than others due to the economic status of those in the class, any reduction in cost will only have a positive effect on the amount of drivers in the class and the amount of events they attend.

I just don't get why people are against saving money, if everyone is 1-2 seconds a lap slower is that even a big deal?

The only reason I'd see someone being against a spec tire is if they don't want to give up their advantage of being able to/willing to buy new tires every weekend.

Brian

[Daryl DeArman]

I just don't get why people are against saving money, if everyone is 1-2 seconds a lap slower is that even a big deal?

The only reason I'd see someone being against a spec tire is if they don't want to give up their advantage of being able to/willing to buy new tires every weekend.

Some put out the safety argument that in the alphabet soup race mix the speed delta is too great and anything to increase that delta is bad.

There is already often 2+ seconds difference between front/mid/rear pack racers anyways so what's the big deal?

I find the bigger speed differentials actually less disruptive as you are sharing real estate for a smaller time period.

[BLS]

I find the bigger speed differentials actually less disruptive as you are sharing real estate for a smaller time period.

Good point, one that had not occurred to me. I had no real problem with the very fast cars, more difficulty with next class up (FF).

[SEComposites]

In case you weren't aware, the Delta Wing car uses fronts that are made from the same tire mold they use to make our tires.

This is just not true! Where do these peculiar rumors start!?

That's me fueling the car in case you doubt my credentials.

[Bill Bonow]

This is just not true!

Yep, 5 seconds of searching:

http://www.deltawingracing.com/tech-specs/

They are not even made by Hoosier. The spec tire is made by Continental.

This topic was on another thread (not worth digging it up) and the general conclusion was yes it would fit on the wheel, but the application and construction pretty much made it non-applicable to FV.

Not sure where Charley was going with this one.

[problemchild]

Not sure where Charley was going with this one.

I don't agree with much of Charlie's politics, but I think it is clear where he is going.

If FV is going to have Hoosier provide a spec tire, and Hoosier is already building a Continental radial racing tire for a 15X4 wheel that looks just like a FV tire ..... them maybe some variation could be built for FV.

I get that part. The problem I see is convincing Hoosier to sell them for $75 each!

Besides ..... both our professional FV teams would all have to re-engineer their cars for a new tire, and that would not be cost-effective.

[Bill Bonow]

Got it.

Was not aware those tires are private labeled by Hoosier for Continental.

I'm still doubtful that the same mold can be used for bias ply and radial.

[Jnovak]

I made one exception to my rule and wrote the SCCA regarding F500 MC powered cars. I opened the letter with "I am not a current member" so they could keep reading or file it away. I wrote that letter because I was genuinely excited about the potential of the class and was ready to pull the trigger on a top notch, no excuse effort.

come on in the water Daryl. The cars are very fast and now are very reliable. Cost for new MC powered F500 is about 1/3 the cost of a top new FF and used for about 1/2 of new. on top of that the fastest cars are faster than ANY FF car in the country.

My apologies to my many FF friends.

[Mark Filip]

Who is getting the survey? I have not gotten anything about the survey.

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

I got it.

[BLS]

Mark,

Came by email. I have no idea what email list SCCA is using.

The Dec fastrack, page 20, has the CRB recommending a FV spec tire survey.

http://cdn.growassets.net/user_files...pdf?1448032204

[Jphoenix]

I did not receive a survey email; I did send in a letter. But I don't race in SCCA, only conference - maybe they sent only to active SCCA racers?

[Bill Bonow]

I'm assuming that you are an SCCA member?
Your name is on the top of the list for letters sent.
You don't have to have a comp license, but if they accepted your letter without you being an SCCA member, then they (Topeka) have somewhat of an issue.
Somehow, if that did happen, it wouldn't be that much of a shocker.

[BLS]

I don't know who gets the survey, but you do enter your member number when filling it out.

[Jphoenix]

I'm assuming that you are an SCCA member?
Your name is on the top of the list for letters sent.
You don't have to have a comp license, but if they accepted your letter without you being an SCCA member, then they (Topeka) have somewhat of an issue.
Somehow, if that did happen, it wouldn't be that much of a shocker.

Yes, I'm a member, specifically so I can have input to the rules. Conference follows SCCA rules for FV (and others like roll cage rules). Plus maybe someday I'll run the local SCCA races.

[gbmetcalf]

Who is getting the survey? I have not gotten anything about the survey.

I got it

G.

[Daryl DeArman]

come on in the water Daryl. The cars are very fast and now are very reliable. Cost for new MC powered F500 is about 1/3 the cost of a top new FF and used for about 1/2 of new. on top of that the fastest cars are faster than ANY FF car in the country.

My apologies to my many FF friends.

I get all that. No concern about value and performance.

F5 participation in Western Majors was .25 and then there's that little tidbit in the GCR. The last sentence in 9.1.1.15.B

[Bill Bonow]

Yes, I'm a member.

OK, all is good in Topeka

[pacratt]

I'm a member - all paid up and everything - get my Fastracks every month - but haven't seen this survey.

Glenn Lange

[Bill Bonow]

I think it has to do with holding a current comp license and entering races in the corresponding class.
I'm a current member, but no longer a comp license holder. I have not entered an SCCA race in FV for a number of years. I did not receive the survey.

[gbmetcalf]

The below quote is from the The FV Ad Hoc Committee December meeting minutes. "SCCA has also sent out the Spec Tire survey to "active FV drivers", although we are not sure exactly how SCCA determined who it would be sent to. If you are an active driver and did NOT receive an email about the survey, please contact SCCA (ClubRacing@scca.com) to request one"

G.

[Hardingfv32]

The response to the SCCA FF spec tire survey was not very great.. so what you are reporting would seem consistent with whatever criteria /SCCA has used in the past. There are probably logistic reasons relative to who was sent the survey.

Brian

[problemchild]

It will be interesting to see how this plays out. The FV community needs to be aware that the FF survey was very deceptive in grouping all radial tires together so that many people thought they were supporting one option, which was the complete opposite of what they were. The SCCA process has always prioritized the concerns of the most active serious racers rather than the rank and file, or the discontented. Why risk losing 3 in the hand than gaining 30 in the bush. As with the FF survey, you can tailor survey results to match any agenda based on the questions you ask and who does the survey. In the real world, if you were trying to maintain or grow a business, you may be as, or more interested in polling your ex/disgruntled customers, and potential customers than your current customers. We know that SCCA does not think that way ..... members are not customers for one thing.

Apexspeed polls are considered irrelevant by SCCA politicians because the questions are designed to gauge racer opinion rather than ensure a controlled agenda. Beware!

[Hardingfv32]

How this plays out is very clear:

Assuming that the majority wants a spec tire... It will be made by Hoosier.

This is based on the fact that Hoosier is the only company that is going responded with a bid that includes a signed contract with SCCA. This is exactly what toke place with FF.

The only question of any relevance on the FV survey is whether you want spec tire or not. All other question are moot based on most recent spec tire agreements. Absolutely no need to concern yourself with some kind of hidden SCCA agenda.

Brian

[problemchild]

Unfortunately, Harding agrees with me on the agenda, while we differ on whether the agenda is hidden or not. I am still pretending that this is a member driven process, and that since half the community wants a inexpensive radial street tire, that the SCCA politicians would be considering that option. Clearly that is not the case, so everybody needs to beware of that.

I think that as people fill out the survey, they should make sure they ask for an alternate tire option. Note that anyone who wrote a letter asking for the Falken tire to be accepted as a low cost and slower option has been ignored. There has been no mention of an alternate tire proposal in fastrack or anywhere else. There has been no mention of letters being received. No one has contacted me for more information. It has been buried.

If the top 10 or 20% of the FV racers are willing to accept a Hoosier spec tire, then let that happen, but lets make sure we take care of the bottom half of the class too.

For those that missed it ..... from August 13th .....

I sent the following letter to the CRB yesterday.

If anyone else has similar views please write a similar letter or copy this one and send it.
Cheers!

http://www.clubracingboard.com/


Alternate FV Tire

This is NOT a request for a spec tire. Please consider that as a totally separate issue.

This is a request that SCCA approve the use of an alternate FV tire. This tire is already being used in different FV race series in Canada and the USA. It is clearly slower than the open racing tires used in FV now but is more consistent, more durable, and more cost effective. It is a different size and construction than allowed by FV rules and requires different wheels. Minimum weight and track rules get adjusted, but the operational FV remains identical.

Allowing this tire would allow more crossover between competitors to more SCCA events and increase FV participation numbers. As it stands now, in order for those racers to participate in a SCCA race without specifically accommodating supplementary rules, they need to run illegally as a FV, or be moved to FS. The FS option is dangerous and not at all inviting

This rule change will help combat declining car counts with no effect on what is happening at the front of the grid. It can have an immediate effect if implemented promptly and be totally independent of any spec tire discussion.

Specifics:
Tire: Falken Azenis RT 615 (no suffix) or suffix K 95/60/R14
Wheel: Steel 14" X 6" with minimum weight of 12 lbs. No spacers, shims or adapters.
Adjusted minimum weight: 1075 lbs
Adjusted track: Front 54 1/2", plus/minus 1/4", Rear 52 5/8", plus 7/8", minus 5/8"

Links:
http://www.challengecupseries.com/
http://formula1200.com/

[gbmetcalf]

Unfortunately, Harding agrees with me on the agenda, while we differ on whether the agenda is hidden or not. I am still pretending that this is a member driven process, and that since half the community wants a inexpensive radial street tire, that the SCCA politicians would be considering that option. Clearly that is not the case, so everybody needs to beware of that.

I think that as people fill out the survey, they should make sure they ask for an alternate tire option. Note that anyone who wrote a letter asking for the Falken tire to be accepted as a low cost and slower option has been ignored. There has been no mention of an alternate tire proposal in fastrack or anywhere else. There has been no mention of letters being received. No one has contacted me for more information. It has been buried.

If the top 10 or 20% of the FV racers are willing to accept a Hoosier spec tire, then let that happen, but lets make sure we take care of the bottom half of the class too.

For those that missed it ..... from August 13th .....

I sent the following letter to the CRB yesterday.

If anyone else has similar views please write a similar letter or copy this one and send it.
Cheers!

http://www.clubracingboard.com/


Alternate FV Tire

This is NOT a request for a spec tire. Please consider that as a totally separate issue.

This is a request that SCCA approve the use of an alternate FV tire. This tire is already being used in different FV race series in Canada and the USA. It is clearly slower than the open racing tires used in FV now but is more consistent, more durable, and more cost effective. It is a different size and construction than allowed by FV rules and requires different wheels. Minimum weight and track rules get adjusted, but the operational FV remains identical.

Allowing this tire would allow more crossover between competitors to more SCCA events and increase FV participation numbers. As it stands now, in order for those racers to participate in a SCCA race without specifically accommodating supplementary rules, they need to run illegally as a FV, or be moved to FS. The FS option is dangerous and not at all inviting

This rule change will help combat declining car counts with no effect on what is happening at the front of the grid. It can have an immediate effect if implemented promptly and be totally independent of any spec tire discussion.

Specifics:
Tire: Falken Azenis RT 615 (no suffix) or suffix K 95/60/R14
Wheel: Steel 14" X 6" with minimum weight of 12 lbs. No spacers, shims or adapters.
Adjusted minimum weight: 1075 lbs
Adjusted track: Front 54 1/2", plus/minus 1/4", Rear 52 5/8", plus 7/8", minus 5/8"

Links:
http://www.challengecupseries.com/
http://formula1200.com/

Greg:
They did mention this in the latest fastrack......

[FONT=Arial-BoldMT][SIZE=1][FONT=Arial-BoldMT][SIZE=1]

What Do You Think

FV

[/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=ArialMT][SIZE=1][FONT=ArialMT][SIZE=1]

1. #17504 (James Phoenix) Supports Spec Tire

The CRB has received a large number of letters on spec tires in FV however, with all of the different opinions there is no clear

consensus on what the class wants. The CRB recommends a formal survey through the Club Racing Department to get a

better understanding of what the class desires.

The CRB thanks the following letter writers for their input:

17504 Phoenix, 17505 Bowman, 17507 Pastore, 17508 Meyer, 17510 Galuardi, 17519 Hinkle, 17520 McCarthy, 17523 Kittell,

17524 Henley, 17525 Pitman, 17527 Maloney, 17528 Roche, 17531 Posner, 17532 Meyer, 17533 Styczynski, 17535 Kujat,

17536 Madrid, 17537 Meyer, 17538 Isley, 17539 Davis, 17540 Posner, 17541 Tatum, 17542 Swinehart, 17543 Bruns, 17544

Satterly, 17545 Rehm, 17546 Bacon, 17547 Metcalf, 17549 Edwards, 17550 Blanarik, 17552 Thompson, 17553 Rice, 17564

Kleinklaus, 17565 Farnham, 17573 Davis, 17574 Clark, 17576 Thalheimer, 17578 Sullivan 17579 Dennis, 17582 Fuchs, 17583

Spadin, 17585 Cheamitru, 17587 Landon, 17591 Bass, 17602 Saslow, 17637 Stalvey, 17687 Schuler and 17709 Yaccarino.
[/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]

FWIW
G.

[budawe]

I can't figure out why the alternative tire rule request keeps coming up since any region can write their own rule via the supplemental rules. The rule just can't be applied to the Majors or other events. The current US Faulken program is an example where the tire is run without a GCR rule. Unless you want to be able to run the alternative tire in a Major's event, why ask for a GCR rule? Is that what is being asked for? Not sure why someone would run a race where they would not be competitive, and that's likely to happen in other regional races as well unless the alternative tire it's made mandatory. Help me understand.

[problemchild]

My proposal was for an alternate tire.

My proposal is a compromise solution that will allow a spec tire for the elitist crowd that are chasing Runoff glory while allowing the regular low buck FV racers to have their affordable alternate tire solution. Choosing a spec tire, either choice, which appears to have a 50/50 split in support, just disenfranchises a large segment of FV racers. If SCCA refuses to even allow one side to vote for their choice, which is happening, then it is even more disenfranchising.

Having a spec tire, and an alternate tire, is a win-win for the community. There will be no one disenfranchised. SCCA just cannot afford to tell half a class, either half, that they don't count!

[problemchild]

I can't figure out why the alternative tire rule request keeps coming up since any region can write their own rule via the supplemental rules. The rule just can't be applied to the Majors or other events. The current US Faulken program is an example where the tire is run without a GCR rule. Unless you want to be able to run the alternative tire in a Major's event, why ask for a GCR rule? Is that what is being asked for? Not sure why someone would run a race where they would not be competitive, and that's likely to happen in other regional races as well unless the alternative tire it's made mandatory. Help me understand.

There are far more people racing that don't win Majors events and they are worthy customers, sorry, members. In 2012, I won both FF races at the Watlins Glen Majors event. I got a flag, a little sticker, a trophy, and Purple Frog put my picture on Apexspeed. In 2014, I ran a Falken tired FV at the Last Chance regional at Watkins Glen. I don't know where I qualified, or where I finished in either race. What I do know ...... I was the fastest Falken car in qualifying and the best finishing Falken car in both races. I did not get a trophy. I did get a participation T-shirt. I had a blast. I literally spent less than $1000 including travel and two hotel rooms. I will declare that that weekend was the best value I received at an SCCA race in 30 years! That is much more about what FV racing was conceived to be, and what could be again. SCCA needs to be welcoming and including this portion of FV racers. Sending them to other groups, or making them jump through hoops to participate, is just plain wrong!

The elitist crowd can do their thing. A spec tire will reduce costs to many racers. Allowing an alternate tire is a compromise that is totally inclusive. Nobody loses. Everybody wins. There is nothing to fear.