Greg, your reading way too much into my question and frankly I don't appreciate the personal attacks. I recuse myself on all vee issues presented to the BOD and abstain from voting. So did Lisa.
Let me ask the question another way. If SCCA were to pass an alternative tire rule, is your expectation that folks would run Majors and regional events against the spec tire, even if it means never being competitive?
The above post is for reference only and your results may vary. This post is not intended to reflect the views and opinions of SCCA and should not be considered an analysis or opinion of the rules written in the GCR. thanks, Brian McCarthy, BOD area 9.
Brian:Originally Posted by budawe
Here is my thought process. I will run whatever tires I need to race. With that said The brain trust here have stated if there is a more durable(harder) spec tire chosen it would be between 2 to 3 seconds a lap slower than the current Hoosier slicks. They have also stated that my Falken tires that are run in the challenge cup up here in the north east and Canada are between 2 to 3 seconds slower a lap than the current Hoosier slicks. In my humble opinion if the spec tire is as slow as the Falkens why not offer an alternative. Now Mr. Harding will blow holes in my thought process but if you go back and read all the posts on the spec tire thread one can gleen all the data I used to support my thought processes.
G.
G. Brian Metcalf
72 AutoD MK4
1991 Mysterian M2
2014 ALR73 FV/FST
Thanks Brian, I think the 2-3 second thing was part of the survey just to measure the response to loosing lap times and some number had to be used. I'm not sure it was a target for any spec tire just a possible result and may only apply to the treaded option.
The above post is for reference only and your results may vary. This post is not intended to reflect the views and opinions of SCCA and should not be considered an analysis or opinion of the rules written in the GCR. thanks, Brian McCarthy, BOD area 9.
I would be much more impressed if you were trying to find compromises and solutions that would reduce costs for everybody and grow the class. It is a shame that the SCCA office is fighting against the Challenge Cup series rather than embracing it.
Greg Rice, RICERACEPREP.com
F1600 Arrive-N-Drive for FRP and SCCA, FC SCCA also. Including Runoffs
2020 & 2022 F1600 Champion, 2020 SCCA FF Champion, 2021 SCCA FC Champion,
2016 F2000 Champion, Follow RiceRacePrep on Instagram.
I got it.Who is getting the survey? I have not gotten anything about the survey.
Blah blah blah.....the Falkens suit me and a lot of other participants perfectly. Hopefully if SCCA goes in another direction, the Championship Cup Series here in the Northeast will still be running and using the Falkens.
Matt Rehm
1997 Citation FV #10
1997 Citation FV #16
Greg has a good point with the alternate tire being allowed. I did run the last Challenge Cup race in Dermot's BRD an I had a blast driving the car on the Falkens! The cars are a little slower but believe me YOU WILL NEVER NOTICE it while on the track. The racing is every bit as good as on slicks but you aren't spending $900 on new tires all of the time.
So if you goal is to be able to outspend your competitors so you can get that trophy then go ahead and I hope you enjoy it but believe me I do have a lot of trophies but I stopped because it was getting to expensive and I was burnt out after doing it for over thirty years.
I don't have a way to lower the fixed costs of racing but the tire expense is pretty easy to lower and going with a street tire is I think a good way. Yes there will be people who think that shaving and always wanting new tires will make them faster but after a weekend driving an unfamiliar car on old tires I really didn't find it to matter at all. I felt after not having driven for a few years, I was right back at the front having a blast!
Ed
I dare the 'alt tire' people to formulate a plan for implementation that recognizes the administrative and political realities of SCCA. No whining about SCCA. It is the organization that you are dealing with. They set the boundaries.
Fact: SCCA requires a contract for a spec tire.
1) SCCA can not specify a spec DOT radial because none of the manufactures will sign a contract. So you can not specify Falkens under an 'alt tire' rule. Thus the rule would have to be open to all DOT tires. Well this is going to leave the Falkens in the dust when it comes to performance and expense.
2) How about the implementation of the future Hoosier spec tire. SCCA can not have two spec tires for one class. The GCR specifies for the class with no recognition of Regional or Major status. So no splitting by status.
How does SCCA get Hoosier to signup for a spec tire when they are not the only choice of tire for the class?
The 'alt tire' group is simply talking into the wind. None of you have done the heavy lifting required to solve the logistic and political realities presented to you.
Brian
Last edited by Hardingfv32; 12.07.15 at 5:45 PM.
.....and the conversation deteriorates to name-calling.
Matt Rehm
1997 Citation FV #10
1997 Citation FV #16
I don't see why a contract is necessary to allow an alternative part.
Matt King
FV19 Citation XTC-41
CenDiv-Milwaukee
KEEP THE KINK!
Brian,
Please just go away! You offer nothing that hasn't been offered previously and your name calling just adds to your offensive nature. I feel sorry for you and wish you'd
spend more time in the garage working on your vee than typing on your computor.
Mark
When it is said SCCA office has been fighting the Faulken pro series, can you be more specific. Are you talking about a specific region or the national office? Most regions would welcome more cars with open arms. Be more specific and I try to help.
The above post is for reference only and your results may vary. This post is not intended to reflect the views and opinions of SCCA and should not be considered an analysis or opinion of the rules written in the GCR. thanks, Brian McCarthy, BOD area 9.
Ok back to the survey. Looking at this post I would say it was unnecessary. If the regions have the power to adopt an alternate tire package, we should just use that route. I don't feel any change to the current FV rules are in order. I love racing on slicks My wallet does not. So I Will continue to be a complete failure and run the Challenge Cup Series. In the two seasons I have raced on radials my total cost was 680.00. Two seasons on slicks would be 12000.00. Thats Three sets for the season and three sets at the finals. thats a savings of a mere 11320.00 thats the best failure I have ever had. I failed to spend 11320.00 WOW thats tough to take. The affordable tire package has brought racers back to Formula Vee Instead of chasing them away. What the class needs is entries bottom line. Who cares what tire is on the car as long as they are equal. let the class alone and let people make their own decision what they want to bolt on the car for rubber. WE JUST WANT TO RACE. If thats my failure I'll take it. Stop all the BS and lets find a way to get Vees back on the track.
Amen.
First.. I am going to assume we are discussing a specific tire brand and size. If this application is going to be part of the GCR... SCCA will consider it a spec tire and require a contract. Those are the administrative guidelines as applied by SCCA. I can not tell you how and why those guidelines were developed but SCCA does have a long history of spec tire administration.
Brian
Letting the resin cure on a body layup... have a little time to extend to the discussion.
Brian
This exactly what McCarthy has been saying for months! No valve in disregarding his statements... he knows how things are done in SCCA.
The purpose of the survey is to move the process forward for a spec tire for FV at the GCR level. If the you operate under a special Regional tire rule then there is no need to concern yourself.
If the majority desire a spec tire.. then Hoosier will be the only company willing to deal with us.
Brian
This is not a spec tire. Your entire premise is wrong, therefore your conclusion is wrong. All the SCCA really needs to do is allow the wider wheel as an alternate part. The regions can then decide what tires to put one them.
Matt King
FV19 Citation XTC-41
CenDiv-Milwaukee
KEEP THE KINK!
1) A tire specified by brand and size called out in the GCR is a spec tire.
2) Calling out an alternate wheel size is completely unnecessary if you are saying that you are going the the Regions for the alt tire. The Regions can also specify the alt wheel.
You are simply creating modifications to the GCR that are completely unnecessary.
Again there are good reasons for the rule administrative process that SCCA follows. It might not right for every organization but it is what SCCA has developed over time.
Brian
Brian
What if people simply want an alternate wheel size to run not only regionally but Nationally or better yet in Majors? Simply changing the GCR would allow this wouldn't it Brian instead of going to each region & lobbying them to change their regs? Please explain what I am missing here as I am sure you can.
Steve Bamford
As I see it. The SCCA has seen fit to send out a survey. Whatever comes of it is up to them. I still will race in the challenge cup and try to hit a few regionals/Majors along the way. my hope is to some day go to the runoffs. My thought process from when I began racing was to do 99% of the work myself unless I was in over my head. Then to be able to beat the big buck teams with what I have. So far the best time was rebuilding my first ever small block Chevy and then getting protested by the champion because I beat him. I spent $850.00 rebuilding my engine and he had a $10,000 + pro built motor.
G.
G. Brian Metcalf
72 AutoD MK4
1991 Mysterian M2
2014 ALR73 FV/FST
This is easy.....
1) No spec tire: Specify an alt wheel and I run a larger racing slick. Not going to fly.
2) Spec tire:
a) I use the alt wheel with a the spec tire to increase rim width and/or track.
b) Hoosier is not going to supply a spec tire if there is an alt rim and the option to use another tire. Hoosier will already be selling fewer tires by definition so why buy into an alt tire/wheel option. Not going to fly.
The reality is there are only a hand full of regions in the NE and SE Divisions that have enough entries to bother with asking for a alt tire/wheel. FV at the Regional level is affectively dead in the rest of the country. Being grouped with all other SR/Formula cars because of the none existent entries pretty much seals the deal.
Brian
1. So run a larger slick, won't it weigh more & create more rotating mass then the current tire slowing you down on all but a possible select few tracks? So wouldn't that defeat the purpose of your arguement?
2. No spec tire is adopted as of yet so isn't this still an option, if not then please explain why since currently there is no spec tire?
b. Most people in FV I see asking for a spec tire are not asking Hoosier for a spec tire or at least aren't asking to adopt a tire that Hoosier currently produces, would you care to prove me wrong on that point?
Steve Bamford
Let me know how that search for a decent 14x6 slick works out for you.
Scott,
First I've never driven on or seen an American Racer - sorry. Secondly, I was the LAST PERSON in the Vee community running Goodyear Eagles (I still have two brand new fronts if anyone wants them). In 2009, I ran Goodyear's at the Runoffs. I think I was the only one, but could be mistaken. I know I was the only one on the podium or in the top ten. To call me an elitist ( not your comment ) is ludicrous. Anyone who knows me will agree. I just can't understand why anyone would want to go SLOWER in their Vee. I've never heard of anyone who starts in Formula Atlantic and chooses to wind up in Formula Vee (though I'm sure there's one out there somewhere). If we end up on a spec tire, so be it. I'm just a proponent of going faster, not slower. I have to say I'm glad I got this conversation going and I knew it would create a "firestorm," but there are few folks who race that are more "blue collar" or more "do whatever it takes to make sure every Vee driver is on the track" than I. I don't think I've ever met you or raced against you, but I look forward to the day that I get to - spec tire or not. Respectfully,
Charlie Hearn
FV #37
Sorry Charlie!!
Its not about overall speed of the car. Its about the level of the competition. Thats Formula Vee
Dean,
We've raced each other numerous times and I respect your opinion. I still think faster is better, but I will abide the decision of the FV community. Are you still racing your Womer? I really miss Ed and Cathy! I get to see a Womer on occasion as Justin Wilbanks is racing one here in the SW Division and makes the occasional Majors race. He's a good young racer with a lot of potential. Are you going to Florida this year? I'm not sure yet as I lost my job at the end of September and am struggling with the CEO about funding. Hopefully she will relent!! Good to hear from you.
Charlie
Where did you see this contract requirement?
Plenty of spec parts in FV that don't require contracts, I can't imagine why tires would be any different. Not saying you're making stuff up, just checking.
Charlie
Miss racing with you too. Im looking forward to Indy. I doubt Ill make Mid Ohio. I won't stop trying though! I have been Racing on radials in the NE and having a blast. Miss all of the Majors crowd. Great times. Ed and Cathy are doing great and we try to keep Ed busy. See ya at the track soon.
Dean
No spec parts on a FV that I can think of. However, rest assured that if Hoosier made one and somebody wanted to propose an alternate, a contract would be required.
As a new/old guy coming back into it, I can tell you that the tire rule is what is bringing me and my buddy back in. Sure, everyone wants to go faster. But it's all about the experience. Are you really going to notice much difference between 2-3 seconds a lap while driving the car? I doubt most will. That difference is noticed only on the timing sheet. Just printed numbers on a page. That's all it is. Would you rather run 2-3 seconds a lap faster all by yourself in a field of 5 cars or wheel to wheel every lap of the race and having a blast? I guess it depends on your taste. Hill climb guys live for the numbers. That's cool and I get it. I prefer to race wheel to wheel.
The spirit of the original FV rules was to have a highly competitive, yet affordable class. Yes, going with a spec tire would slow us down, but I've yet to hear an argument as to why that is so bad. Yes, until car counts rise (hopefully), we may still have to run with faster cars, but (again, hopefully) fields might increase so that we could get our own run class back.
Do you guys think Vees were "less fun" to drive when they redlined at 5500rpms? How about 6000? Or 6500? I've been around this class a long time. The best fields on a consistent level were in the late 70's thru late 80's. I can pull out some time sheets (if I can find them), but I would guess Vees were the 2-3 seconds per lap slower then than they are now (Coincidentally, roughly the same gap most are saying that running a radial would differ over running slicks)....Yet, I keep reading that no one wants to go slower. The prospect of a larger field is that unappealing? Re-energizing the class should be the primary objective, in my opinion. There are far too many other options for the newbie that are more appealing if you don't keep Vee racing relatively cheap. That is really our only selling point right now.
I can't guarantee that reducing tire costs is going to bring back huge fields, but I doubt it's going to reduce them. I, for one, would return to racing at some level if the tire costs were reduced. Am I the only one?
If everyone is on the same spec tire, then what will change in terms of competition?
Everyone will have the same handicap, ergo the running order will remain virtually the same - perhaps even better if the fields grow.
I'm an SCCA member, but not currently active (doing vintage vee in VSCDA) so I wasn't invited to the survey, but I'd like to flip-flop between both (my car is adaptable) and tire costs play heavily into the overall costs that make amateur racing so prohibitive.
Glenn Lange
Brian M, we have know each other for a long time since we have both been racing for a long time and since you are a SCCA board member you obviously know the SCCA hierarchy well. With the club requiring a contract to have a spec tire as the only way to go reminds me of the old say about insanity.
Brian H, you are always good at providing the other side of the fence/argument and as someone who obviously reads the rules and is always trying to find another/better way I admire you ingenuity. The problem comes up when competitors are looking for a way to circumvent the rules or basically cheat to get ahead. The Falken tire has been used in Canada as well as other tires over the years and they have a gentlemen's agreement to not shave tires and from what I see it has worked. Believe me the level of competition is just as good in the Challenge Cup as in the Majors the only difference is what it cost to rune the Majors, just go back and read what Dean saved by not running the quasi spec tire in the Majors, the one without a contract for the club to milk more from the competitors wallet.
Hi Charlie, you did good at Daytona it looked like an epic drafting chess game. Cathy and I are fine and I am enjoying retirement but Cathy is still working, she just likes it and the money is way to good. I only whished I didn't goof off the first year of retirement and now am busy trying to get things done to actually have time to do what I want.
Ed
Some folks are worried about going SLOWER with Falkens,"We dont want to be a chicane to faster clases we HAVE to race with....well in Canada(Ontario) HEY!!!! wait a minute...we RACE ON OUR OWN.."NO" other class with us..............................
(ME)last place driver"hey Im 2-4 seconds slower than you,1st place driver"Doesnt matter we are all having a BLAST"!!!.....(ME) hey your right!!thats WHAT the class is all about...I have about 7 trophies,I never in my wildest dreams thought that would ever happen ......I didnt win or come close in any race(Made a few good starts and missed STANDING STARTS)but I got my trophies,and dont give a crap about tires,big manifolds etc,etc I ENJOYED every minute of F1200 racing and the people.
IF the SCCA requires a contract to run a specified DOT radial, then the SCCA process is broken.
Perhaps a contract makes sense for a spec race tire made by one company (of course, there is no contract now), but for a DOT tire it makes zero sense, just as requiring trackside support for a DOT tire makes no sense.
The survey wording was, IMO, not designed to allow for those with DOT preference to adequately make their choice clear. Nor was it designed to allow for an optional wheel / DOT radial.
Personally, I favor what Stevan originally mentioned, an optional wheel tire combination. This leaves the standard wheel with slicks from any manufacturer available but allows a "subgroup" of racers to use a DOT radial tire at low cost. I would expect most majors participants to be on Hoosier slicks. Regional racers will likely choose the DOT radial tires. Yes, a regional racer on slicks will run away, but the field behind him will be having a lot more fun at much lower cost. The argument is the regions can already do this. However, it is much preferred the optional wheel/tire be a national solution.
I understand why those that prefer the slick tire wish to keep it that way. None of us know if the DOT tire will increase car counts enough to get single class racing. It might. It will certainly lower costs for the current participants. For the low budget racer, tire costs are a large part of the budget.
The US has more lawyers per capita than anywhere else in the world. Still wonder why everyone wants a contract? Seriously, if tire options were open, no contract is needed. The marketplace determines the choices. If a tire supplier, regardless of brand or style, is going to be chosen to provide the exclusive tire to be run, the circumstances and requirements will have to be spelled out and agreed upon. I think that's called a contract. A contract is a document to protect all parties. Doing business on a hand shake is simply not an option anymore.
The above post is for reference only and your results may vary. This post is not intended to reflect the views and opinions of SCCA and should not be considered an analysis or opinion of the rules written in the GCR. thanks, Brian McCarthy, BOD area 9.
Brian,
When I purchase a set of tires for my tow car, I don't need a special contract. Why do we need one for any DOT radial?
You have a contract, look on the back side of the invoice. There's at least a disclaimer somewhere on the invoice or work order.
As I said, if the radial dot tire is not a required or spec tire, it's between you and the seller. If SCCA specs a tire, then the relationship changes and I don't think anyone wants the club to do business on a handshake.
The above post is for reference only and your results may vary. This post is not intended to reflect the views and opinions of SCCA and should not be considered an analysis or opinion of the rules written in the GCR. thanks, Brian McCarthy, BOD area 9.
Yes, a sales contract. I'll get that when I purchase a set for my FV.
If you look closely at that "sales" contract has a lot to say about warranty and future liability. If SCCA awards a company the sole access to a class, there will be standards and expectations on both parties. Price will be only one of them. If we spec durability, support and distribution requirements and sponsorship or contingencies, then both parties need to agree and signing a contract is referred to as perfecting the agreement.
The above post is for reference only and your results may vary. This post is not intended to reflect the views and opinions of SCCA and should not be considered an analysis or opinion of the rules written in the GCR. thanks, Brian McCarthy, BOD area 9.
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