What's wrong with this picture?

[weedline]

This is a photo of the tire vendor area for the SCCA Sebring races this past weekend. There were 300+ cars entered for the weekend.
I will give you a hint what is wrong.....no Goodyear vendor.

As one of the longest running Formula Mazda teams running the southeast and also a staunch supporter of Formula Mazda, it is sad to have to make a tough decision regarding our participation in the 2016 FM Majors/runoffs because of a well intended, but in my opinion misguided decision regarding mandatory tires.

I refuse to mail order tires and ask the Hoosier vendor to mount a competitors tires because Goodyear doesn't care enough about club racing to even show up. With SFR going to Hoosier there are only a handful of cars even running Goodyears at any events. I tried to explain this problem would occur early this year, but obviously it fell on deaf ears.

I assume from the other recent threads about the future of FM that I am not the only FM owner/customer who feel they are not properly represented during the decision process.
We will continue to run Hoosier tires in FM regionals while we try to figure out which direction to take the car in the future.

It is truly a sad decision for us as I feel I have lost a dear old friend.

Mark Weeder

[RussMcB]

Has the regional Goodyear dealer offered a reason for why they weren't there?

Just curious. Maybe there's a good reason (maybe not).

[Daryl DeArman]

Only 3 FM's there.

How many, of those 300ish entries, do you think were running GY and needed to purchase GY tires at the track for the last race of the year?

I get the not wanting to ask a vendor to mount competitors tires at the track. However, many folks manage to arrive at the track with all the tires they need for the weekend already mounted. There's an easy work-around.

[weedline]

Russ,

Since the Goodyear line was pulled from Competition Tires after the January 2015 majors I have not seen a Goodyear vendor at any of our races in Florida.
To tell you the truth, I don't even know if Goodyear even has a vendor down here. This was the reason we changed to Hoosiers.
Appalachian tire (Hoosier) is at every race regardless of car counts.


Mark

[weedline]

Daryl,

Actually this is the first race of our season. It was a double SARRC weekend counting for 2016 points.
The problem we have getting our tires mounted and balanced locally is the formula wheel configuration. I think for many classes with standard lug nut patterns can do exactly what you said.
I have found shops that can mount our tires, but none that could balance them.
The tire shop always tell me our wheel will not fit their balancing machines properly.

Mark

[Charles Warner]

Here is the solution we used for atlantics when tire stores gave us the same excuse.

http://rogerkrausracing.com/pages/rk...ingsystem.html

As Daryl said, there is a work-around.

[Daryl DeArman]

Mark,

Got it. I have always been in the "no need to balance race wheels and tires" camp. Like Ford/Chevy, Coke/Pepsi there will always be a ton of passionate folks in both camps.

[Charles Warner]

Daryl,

I think it depends on the age of your wheels and how abusive you have been to them. Also, the sizes. YMMV.

[RussMcB]

Russ,

Since the Goodyear line was pulled from Competition Tires after the January 2015 majors ... <snip>

Mark

Wow. I didn't know that.

Being a Hoosier user I have noticed Hoosier Tire East is at all southeast races, and it seemed like there were times when the Goodyear trailer wasn't there. I guess it's a matter of supply and demand. I agree it sucks to have a spec tire and no track support at Majors. What does your class' rep at SCCA HQ have to say about it? "Too bad"?

[Shanerc]

Russ,

Since the Goodyear line was pulled from Competition Tires after the January 2015


Mark

In January 2015 at the Homestead Majors Goodyear only had 1set of FM tires on the truck. Then one of the genius GY engineers poked a hole in one with his tire temp probe, they did offer to replace it. He said I would receive it in the mail in 2-3 weeks. Luckily Moses had a few sets and overnighted us a few sets.
Sasco was at the Atlanta & VIR Majors, you had to call and reserve tires ahead of time but they still brought a few extra sets just incase. Maybe they should expand their service area.

[weedline]

The problem getting a reliable Goodyear supplier is the Goodyear tire sales numbers are just not there.
I would bet out of 300 cars this past weekend maybe 10% run GY. The largest subscribed groups SRF,SM are all on Hoosier now. The only Goodyear tires I see being used in any numbers are on GT cars.
I don't blame any business for not driving around the southeast chasing those numbers.

[daericks]

That is crappy. I wasn't aware the east didn't have Goodyear reps at the races. While I don't like a certain Goodyear tire ( aka "The Widow Maker"), I love the service and support we get out here in the west. Is this a new thing or has this been the case for over a year?

[weedline]

In early 2014, when Goodyear started to pull out of club racing is when I noticed the change. If a race had less than 150 entrants Goodyear would not show. Our FM was about the last open wheel car still running GY tires in FL at that time.
Out of necessity we were forced to start using Hoosier tires. It turned out to be a blessing. The tires were less expensive than Goodyears and the vendor was at every race regardless of entrant numbers.
We didn't see track lap times change from our Goodyears so we were happy with the arrangement.
So now we are faced with more expensive tires that I can't get trackside that should give us slower lap times.
Sadly, this spec tire decision is most likely a deal breaker for us.

[daericks]

That is saddening to hear... Nobody out here runs Hoosiers but they are at quite a few races. In Phoenix, Brian Shackelford does both Hoosier and GY so that is handy and he shows up to most of the club races--just not SCCA (NASA, ProAuto, etc.). GY shows up to EVERY Majors race out here so that is nice. Nothing on the regional stuff though.

If you see the other threads you will see that the new tire rule has also deterred my team from running FM any longer. We have all switched to the regional FS class. We have different complaints than you do but knowing what you have stated about GY's support (or lack thereof) out east it all but verifies that this is the death of FM as we know it as a national class. Be happy that you didn't waste any money on the new 470 tire.

The best we can do is work together to make a new FM 2.0 class that will keep us in the game. It will take a few years to iron out all of the details but at least we will have a car that can remain fun and competitive. If you wish to participate in the FS conversion visit the other thread. The goals of the proposed 2.0 class are stated there if are interested.

I hope you continue to run FM and find a way to fight through it. Perhaps everyone out there can just run the Hoosiers and agree to not protest each other? The group is small enough and it seems like common sense to keep what you all know as well.

There is a learning curve on the 470 and the setups are different. If you were one of the lucky few that were involved in "testing" the tire you will have some setup information from Goodyear. If you were not deemed as one of the cool kids you will have to figure it out on your own and go through numerous sets of tires to get a good baseline. Those that have the information certainly have an advantage over those that don't. I am working to see if I can get that setup info so those that want to keep on running FM will at least have a semi-fair shot at being competitive with the Widow Maker.

Dan

[preston27]

Is that what GoodYear calls the 470?

[weedline]

Dan,

I have been reading the other thread with great interest.

I have a question about running in FS. Do you have to get a new logbook for the FS class or is it as simple as replacing the FM decals with FS and signing up as a FS car during registration?
Running Hoosiers in FM during regionals shouldn't be an issue. The only other FM running down here has a unsealed motor. We never say anything because we know he has a limited budget and quite frankly we like having another FM to run against.

And Robert,
I don't know what GY calls it, but I can assure you I can't post here what we call it around our house.

Thank you to everyone for their ideas and support.

Mark

[preston27]

Yes Mark here are the detailed instructions to become a FS car.
1. Remove the "M" on the class designation decal and leave the "F".
2. Put an "S" where the "M" was.

[RussMcB]

The following post is probably old, outdated and wrong. :-)

Unless things have changed, you need to have your car homologated for FS before you can run in that class. You can apply for dual homologation so you can run in two classes. A few years ago at the ARRC event at Road Atlanta they were checking that because people were just showing up with their FA cars with "FS" on them. Those competitors had to deal with SCCA HQ to get expedited processing before they could go on track.

So, I'd advise against showing up at the track after only changing your class letters.

[weedline]

Russ,

Thanks for the clarification.
I race a 911 Porsche in ITR and I was going to also run it in Vintage Class. Tech told me I just needed to change the ITR to VIN and use my ITR logbooks.
It may be a different case because the Central Florida Region pretty much makes up their own Vintage Rules.
I guess I should quit being lazy and read the GCR.

Thanks again,

Mark

[Purple Frog]

I think if you read page 85 of the current GCR you will determine that cars no longer have to be homologated. In fact there is not even a homologation PDF form to download anymore.
You just have to build the car to the rules in the GCR. But, you need permission if you want your roll hoop to be different than the rules/specs in the GCR.
You can still show old homologation papers if they have been issued to prove rollbar compliance.

As far as I know homologation is a thing of the past.

[daericks]

I call it the "Widow Maker" because I don't think the tire is safe. It IS the reason we are switching to FS. Like I said above, I love Goodyear and they have been great to us. It is just this particular tire that we have issues with. We also did not like the process used to make it our spec tire but that has little to do with our changing classes. The jury is still out on if it actually achieves the stated goal of saving racers money. Personally, they cost me at least twice as much due to the fact that I flat spotted them. No, I am not the greatest driver and you could claim driver error, but I am not the only one. If Goodyear ultimately decides they had a "bad batch" then I think there will be a lot of refunds to be issued. Regardless, we will not run the tire again. We continue to buy the 255's from Goodyear--but they are currently low on stock. Hoosier makes a great tire but all of our setups are for 255's and we have little interest in burning sets of tires just to find a new setup.

Our Goodyear rep provided us with baseline setup information for a set of 470's that were ordered but I don't have that information yet. My teammate will be sending that to me shortly and I'll post it. I don't think it is is confidential or anything but it was odd that only a few people had the information until now. Maybe I'm just dumb but isn't the forum you would expect to find the information? It sure would have been nice to have the info months ago when we were running those things... If it wasn't for a guy out here named Eric Purcell (shameless plug for a guy that lives for FM and deserves a lot of credit for keeping it going on the West Coast) my team would have been completely hosed all year long.

As for the FS rules, we plan on doing the regional thing by just changing the letters. If we are forced to run FM, we will just run as FM and get dq'ed every time. We are not running for points for trophies but want to have fun. If the rest of the guys want to dual-homologate then I guess we can do that. Our region isn't tight on rules and it sounds like yours is similar Weedline. We generally have one or two FS cars out there and both of them are supped up FM's anyways. We will most certainly get beat by them for until our FS builds are completed. As a side note... From my understanding, FS is ANY open wheel car with a min weight of 750 lbs that is NA. So, to check homologation for FS is pretty silly if you ask me. I can see it going the other way around, because FA has some additional limitations but not to FS.

[daericks]

As promised, here is the information provided to us. This is a copy/paste so please don't message me if you disagree with the information provided here:

Here is our baseline 470 set up.

- Target hot Tire pressure 18psi front and rear. All of our set up numbers are done with this pressure. I tune the car to maintain the same target hot temp. I have never had to stager my hot temp to make the car work.
- Set up with 10 gallons of fuel and a total car weight of 1410 lbs

Ride height:
- Front 1.875”
- Rear 2.750”
Caster
- Front 5.0-5.5
Camber
- Front -.8 (neg)
- Rear +.4 (pos)
Toe
- Front 3mm toe out each side 6mm total
- Rear 0
Springs
- Front 750 lbs
- Rear 500 lbs
Compression
- Front 7 (from soft)
- Rear 5 (from soft)
Rebound
- Front 6 (from soft)
- Rear 4 (from soft)
Bump Rubbers
- Front Short
- Rear Tall
Packers
- Front 0
- Rear as many as it takes to have .375 - .500 gap between bump rubber and packer at static. You will need a shorter gap for your slower drivers
Shock perch heights
- Front +/- .125
- Rear +/- .250
Corner weights
- Front +/- 5 lbs
- Rear +/- 10 lbs
ARB
- Front Full soft
- Rear baseline at 3” with Sticker tires (adjust for wear)
Wing
- We measure without including the wicker. We start with the front and rear at the same angle. Ranging from 6 – 10 degrees depending on track
Wicker
- Front Tall (.750)
- Rear Short (.375)
- We ALWAYS run wickers. Even the winning car at Daytona ran wickers. The only difference is we ran .375 front and rear.


The primary changes we make are:
1) Rake
2) Camber based on tire temps. (I like to stay within 5-10 degrees across the tire hottest temp in the inside shoulder)
3) Packers
4) Bar (mostly to chase tire wear) (Soften bar as tires get older and start to get looser)
5) Shocks
6) Wing (for tuning corners above 70 mph)
7) Toe
8) Caster
9) Bump steer.
10) Always make sure to keep an eye on tire temps to adjust cambers.

In that order. Very rarely do I have to get passed step 6. Steps 1-3 will usually do the trick for overall handling. Steps 4-6 is for balance, and tire wear. Steps 7-10 is very rarely needed assuming the baseline is correct.

This info is also assuming the car has been Squared and bump steer is correct. Also that there are no excessively worn parts on the car suck as himes, uprights, ackerman plates and blocks, and that the shocks are FM spec, and functioning properly. I suggest double adjustable shocks to be rebuilt every 40 hours, or whenever they weep oil, or loose an excessive amount of air pressure.

[preston27]

Thank you very very much Moses. Would you please give us your setup on the 255's.
Thanks again. Oh and BTW what is the spring perch position ?

[weedline]

I just noticed this in fastrack.

FM
1. #18222 (Moses Smith) FM Track Records Reset
Thank you for your suggestion. The SCCA will request that Timing and Scoring officials in all regions remove old FM track records and to establish new ones in 2016.

This new tire must really stink on ice if you have to scrub every track record ever recorded to level the playing field.
Not to mention it erases the accomplishments of many great FM drivers through the years.

[preston27]

I saw that. I guess 20 years of trying to get a track record at VIR means nothing and all the other drivers that have track records means nothing. This is absolutely insane to take away every track record from every driver that has one.
This isn't equaling the playing field this is punishing your loyal customers that keep FM alive.
This is just one of many examples of why our class is dead.

[FrankRizzo]

I just noticed this in fastrack.

FM
1. #18222 (Moses Smith) FM Track Records Reset
Thank you for your suggestion. The SCCA will request that Timing and Scoring officials in all regions remove old FM track records and to establish new ones in 2016.

This new tire must really stink on ice if you have to scrub every track record ever recorded to level the playing field.
Not to mention it erases the accomplishments of many great FM drivers through the years.

The simple way around this. Grab those times NOW, and keep a list. So you can compare them along the way.

"WOW! That was a GREAT lap at PIR! a 1:20!" (Too bad it's over 6 seconds below the OLD record of 1:14, set by X on Y date).

I'm know to be a tad sarcastic from time to time.

[Shanerc]

As promised, here is the information provided to us. This is a copy/paste so please don't message me if you disagree with the information provided here:

Here is our baseline 470 set up.

- Target hot Tire pressure 18psi front and rear. All of our set up numbers are done with this pressure. I tune the car to maintain the same target hot temp. I have never had to stager my hot temp to make the car work.

What is the recommendation on tire temperatures with these new tires?

[mazda17]

Erase all the old track records....are you kidding me???? When a spec class such as SRF has a slower tire chosen for a period of time, they don't delete the track records. They also didn't delete the old track records when the SRF class weight increased 30 pounds.

[preston27]

Guys this is rediculous. It's very obvious that this is what happens when a very good driver/racer (one of the best) thinks he is also a business man. Your ego is killing FM.
It's not personal I want FM to succeed I absolutely love the car. I have driven the car for 20 years now.
Sell the business to someone that's ran a successful business. Like 90% of your customers who have the disposable income to be your clients. This is our passion that's a hobby.
Why don't you have another vote on track records, tires, except this time have only drivers vote not their family members like parents.
I busted my ass for several years trying to finally get the track record at VIR and to take away my track record really hurts. Just being honest. How can this be business? Please can any of you tell me when it's appropriate reset all track records and delete the class history nationwide?
I have 2 FM's rebuilt from the ground up everything on each car is new , motors, transmissions , shocks, paint, graphics everything. $40k each could not replace them and now there isn't a single FM to race against that lives east of the Mississippi they are all FS cars.
How do you think Formula Mazda has evolved since you became the parts supplier. I won't give you the title of "manufacture " because they actually build and sell cars. You have never even built a car. We haven't been able to buy a new FM for over a decade. You just sell parts and your "hard choices" make the car slower and that's IF we can even buy the tires. It's not personal these are the facts.
It's time for new leadership you don't want to be known for destroying FM.

[Fred Michael]

This is speculation but I believe that the records need to be reset because of the requirement to be within 115% of the track record in Majors qualifying.

[preston27]

Who plans on racing in the 2016 Majors events?
Just identify that track and when!

[mazda17]

Track records needing to be reset for the 115% rule would be a bit more valid if the rule was ever enforced. I have seen a few drivers actually qualify outside the 115%, but I have never seen the rule enforced.

[Shanerc]

Who plans on racing in the 2016 Majors events?
Just identify that track and when!

Robert, Doug is planning to do Homestead, Sebring, Road Atlanta, VIR, Road America, & Mid Ohio with a possible schedule(Trans Am) conflicts at VIR and
Mid Ohio. However he may change his mind after running the "NEW" tire for the first time. He is super anal about tires anyway and if they are as bad as others are claiming he will not be happy.

[weedline]

Robert,

If tire rule is rescinded then Homestead, Sebring, Mid Ohio and Runoffs
If no changes, then we will attend none of the previous mentioned races and take the 15k in operational savings and put it toward a new national class for 2017.

Mark

[Dwayne Anderson]

Preston; In one post you Thank Moses. In the next post post you Rip Him apart. Why don't you stick your neck on the line and buy the business from Him. Since I built the first Fm, and tested it at the Russel School Some people like it, And some did not. and that is true today. Can not make everyone Happy Moses has made hard choices, If you owned the business you would have to make the same hard choices. Try to chill out a little.

Dwayne

[preston27]

I do appreciate his intentions I know he is doing his best. I also understand these are hard choices.
Why strip away track records? I have never heard such.
How do you think our class is doing? I wasn't ripping him I was just pointing out some facts.
Please tell me where I was wrong. Oh and you built a wonderful car thank you. Since you have been involved in racing for so long can you tell me when was the last time ANY sanctioning body erased track records.
I would love to buy Formula Mazda BTW. At the rate it's going I'll buy it on the courthouse steps at auction.
Have a great day.

[mstephenson51]

Ive been involved in a pretty good number of motorsports over the years, and what I am seeing is the same problem as EVERYONE faces these days.

Heres the deal.... Theres no sponsors in racing these days. Things cost more than ever to feed the cars. Thus steps are taken to simplify, control cost, etc. Never fails that not everyone likes the changes.

Heres what we do.... we get together and make the class work the best we can for all of us. Or we all leave for another class. That is one thing that is good these days; there are plenty of classes out there.

Im sorry guys, but trust me Ive seen this kind of stuff kill series' before. Lets be calm, cautious, and polite to all others in the same boat here.

Thx, that is all.

[daericks]

Gents,

The moderator was kind enough to move the other thread about FM to FS conversion to the FS section. Here is a shortcut to that forum: http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=138