The new SVRA FF Rule Book is out

[SEComposites]

I'm a little bit confused (which is normal). For Post Club Ford the rules say 1982-2008. To my mind that allows in 1982 at the lower end and 2008 on the other. The next sentance says any pre-2008 chassis which would imply an 08 car is then not allowed.

[bob darcey]

Yup, I noticed that also. To be consistent with the other category definitions, that should read "pre-2009".

[s800racer]

I'm a little bit confused (which is normal). For Post Club Ford the rules say 1982-2008. To my mind that allows in 1982 at the lower end and 2008 on the other. The next sentance says any pre-2008 chassis which would imply an 08 car is then not allowed.

If you think that's confusing, read the Group 2 tire rules. Statutory drafting is not their strong suit. But if you need clarification, email rick@svra.com and he will give you an answer.

[troyt]

I don't know, but a well flogged CF seems to hold its own against the "too-modern" FFs. The fast FFs may be a couple seconds a lap faster, but on the same tires, barely a second. Certainly not lapping the field. Out west, running VF, CF, and FF on the same tires leads to some pretty close competition. The fast, national FFs get their time from sticky slicks, fresh motors, and big budgets. There are lots of them out there, and they will never leave SCCA.
I'm not a big fan of SVRA, nor a big fan of heavy radials on an old formula car, but there is something to say for leveling the competition and lowering the tire costs. And after Todd's post I understand now where the new SVRA prepped car weight of 1125# came from, the traditional SCCA weight of 1100# plus the extra 25# that the Toyos weigh over bias ply slicks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hx_nAyxzm3Q

[SEComposites]

You only have to look at the Formula Ford Festival or the Walter Hayes trophy in the UK to see that there really isn't a missive gap in lap time between the latest cars and the older 'vintage' cars. They all run on the same readed tires of course.

[paperclip]

It should be pointed out that the lap time at the Festival is around 50 seconds and the Walter Hayes is 62 seconds.
The engines are identical across all classes, there is a tyre difference, the earlier cars use Avon ACB9s and the later ACB10s. However actually back to back on a pre 90 car there appears to be almost no difference in lap time tyre to tyre.

[Bernard Bradpiece]

It should be pointed out that the lap time at the Festival is around 50 seconds and the Walter Hayes is 62 seconds.
The engines are identical across all classes, there is a tyre difference, the earlier cars use Avon ACB9s and the later ACB10s. However actually back to back on a pre 90 car there appears to be almost no difference in lap time tyre to tyre.

Just to avoid confusion.

I believe the Walter Hayes is run at Silverstone. You may be confused with the HSCC Historic meeting at Brands in September. The Festival is October. For 2015 the fastest lap at the Festival for the Kent cars race was a 2009 Ray 09 at 50.3 secs. The fastest lap at the HSCC was a 1971 Merlyn 20A at 51.9 secs.

The Merlyn was on the Avon we use (some of us use!) in the USA. The Ray was on a semi-slick Avon ACB 10 that was allowed in later FF's.

BB

[paperclip]

Not quite sure who is confused here? In both the Formula Ford Festival at Brands Hatch and the Walter Hayes meeting at Silverstone ALL ages of Formula Fords are entered so an absolutely direct correlation of the lap times is possible, with the slight exception as mentioned, with the tyres.
For the earlier cars where the set up can only go part of the way to optimise the tyres used today - over here we cannot move suspension mounting points etc on older cars - there appears to be little difference between the ACB9s and 10s, for the more modern cars they have been designed from the outset to use the ACB10 and it would be hoped better configured to use them.
Whatever all the lap time information is on the internet so the various truths you want to take can be found. As others on here have said a very well driven and set up older car can beat an average newer one, but the best of the best are really something to behold - if there was ever a Grand Prix like a Walter Hayes final it would be talked about for years!

[Bernard Bradpiece]

Simon

I think we are saying the same thing, I was confused that you were comparing SiIverstone times to Brands Hatch times. I compared the pdf results form BRSCC Brands Ford Festival and HSCC Brands Indy meeting. And as noted below at both circuits there is about 2 sec. difference between the latest and earliest cars.

Looking at the actual SIlverstone results, (http://www.hscc.org.uk/images/Walter...sults_2015.pdf) there is about 2 seconds between the outright winner and Mike Gardner, who is as quick as anybody in a pre-81 car. There were no pre 72 cars present. As you will recall, the USA has 2 recognized classes - historic pre-72 and Club pre-81 (outboard at least one end). These are different classes to the UK. There is a push to get post '81 recognized, of course the problem for us is that by '83 we had the Swift DB3 that made everything before it (and for many years after) obsolete - a DB3 finished 3rd at the SCCA runoffs this year.

When Monoposto added Club to its roster there was an outcry from the Historic guys that the class was being despoiled. Now that post '81 is being considered there is a similar outcry from the Club guys - source for the goose etc.

Formula Ford in the USA has been subject to much screwing around. Originally the SCCA was the home and organized the regulations. They added slick tires, then ally wheels, then canister shocks then ally heads, then the Honda Fit engine, and then lost interest. So we have a complete muddle of cars, modified to all sorts of standards. What is original? How to set standards? What happens to the guys who have spent an arm and a leg converting to Honda power. Do we need any standards? Many of these changes do not make a hoot of difference to performance. With your skills at the wheel you would be up front in a Merlyn 11a, a Lotus 69 or a Crossle 32 - but tell that to an owner of a carefully restored to original car, or an owner of a fast Club car who will no longer win races if late Fords are included. The UK has the luxury of running to basically the original regs from way back so you have consistency and can easily separate the cars by era. As I previously noted, getting race drivers to agree on the time of day is like herding cats.

Ideally the vintage clubs would take all Kent engine cars in different classes in order to keep the genre together and vibrant. After all the Kent cars are arguably no longer mainstream - but how do you deal with new Kent cars? What we have now are a number of clubs and wandering run groups all attracting a small number of entries rather than the circus you have in the UK for the various divisions you have created which are heavily subscribed. This makes it hard for organizers to run a Ford race, so they get mixed in with much faster and much slower cars. The local SCCA club usually gets about 3 or 4 Fords.

At VRG we are making a stab at a fix to this problem, but it has not been without its disagreements - getting a set of rules that the majority can agree on is really hardand we have been sensitive to disaffecting our existing members . We will be announcing a new Formula Ford specific series for the East Coast in the next few days and see where we go. You see the contention SVRA has caused by trying this approach which has ended up with a muddled set of regs with the same car in different classes because of the tire argument.

Hope this helps. As noted in several posts if we spent as much time learning to drive as we do pontificating about fairness we would all be running up front!

Season greeting to you and the family.

BB

[paperclip]

I would say at until you get complete harmony of regulations you are going to struggle. Our way of all running to the "original" regulations allows simple and effective policing and class formation.
The basic groups are - "Historic" - pre 72, cars as they were.
"Classic" - pre 82, some small freedoms - rad position etc but coming slowly back to being as they were, the two 81 Festival Reynards excluded.
"pre 90" ditto, sometimes with an added pre 85 sub class,
and everything else.
In Europe they have a Formula Ford championship that goes right to the real end of the Kent heyday, so pre 93 but those here are rolled in with the current cars.
All of this sport is aided by the simplicity of the original regulations - values are maintained and cars are restored and used in the main by enthusiastic owner drivers.


Seasons greeting to you and yours as well, Bernard.