Sports Prototype Endurance Series possibility

[lmpdesigner]

As usual there is a lot to work out with respect to this but I have been approached by a big ($$) company who is interested in sponsoring an "amateur" level endurance series for Sports Prototypes only.

Concept still has a lot of issues to resolve but in general the direction is as follows:

1.) 4-6 race series to start with. More later on.
2.) Probably more East coast based up front-with moving to national series if things work out.
3.) Initial races of 2-3 hours length-2 per weekend with testing and qualifying. Move towards some longer races-idea is to go to 6 to 10/12 hour races-one per weekend. Maybe longer if reasonable to do.
4.) At start of series-depending on sanctioning body- races may be added onto existing race weekend that the sanctioning body already is running. Endurance race would be in evening-after "normal" racing over.
5.) In any event-night racing is going to be a part of concept. So need lights.
6.) Mandatory pit stops every x minutes (TBD) So nobody stuffs a 40 gallon fuel cell in their car.
7.) Minimum pit stop time of x minutes. (TBD) No fueling during driver change. Driver out-then refuel car-then install new driver. Reduces fire danger. Also no need for quick refuel systems.
8.) 2,3 or 4 drivers allowed.
9.) Open to following car types: a.) new LMP3 class b.) SCCA P1, c.) SCCA P2 d.) Radical cars
10.) No "pro" drivers allowed.
11.) Success ballast to keep one car from dominating.
12.) No or very limited mods to cars from current "other series" rule sets. Want cars to be able to run this series one weekend and then another series (Ie-SCCA) the next weekend with minimal or no vehicle alterations.
13.) Spec tire. "Harder, long lasting tire"

What I would like is some feedback from this audience over this idea. Is it of any interest to all? What rules, organization, race types/lengths/locations, car types would you all want. Anything elase to add? Who to sanction? Costs?

No way to know if this will actually happen. All I can say is the sponsor is pretty serious about this. To the point they want to look at a US and European Series, want it sooner than later and have even made noise about (gasp!) prize money.

I have talked to a couple of race teams that currently lease out/run cars in IMSA Lites, Anderson F2000 series, etc and they have all said they think a pretty good idea. For them the advantage is they can support one car but have 2-4 drivers renting the car. Cuts the support staff (mechanics) needed-the fact the races are longer is not an issue as the team/mechanics are at the track anyway. Also allows drivers to race without having to invest 100% of car cost. All can be shared. And for private individuals who current race their cars they can have buddies race with them and share costs over 2-4 drivers.

Personally I really love Prototype Sports Cars and Endurance racing. Being able to take my Norma and run some long races with buddies would be a blast.

[Bob Wright]

Concept has been done before, more than once...so its not out of left field.

The real issue I see is where are you going to get the track time? You imply 4-6 hours of actual racing plus practice and qualifying; that's at least 5 hours a weekend, or more likely 7 hours. A normal day in track definition is usually 7-8 hrs. for the base rate. So which race group is going to give you that much track time on a given weekend? You might have to become the track renter yourself and find other groups to join you. That's a whole different can of worms as most tracks (especially the good ones) are booked solid every weekend of the year they're open.

The idea of running after the normal day ends is what is known as 'extra time', billed by the track by the hour plus extras. The tracks love it, btw. Its all about money, really. Do your economics hold up if the track costs you $2000/hr., $3000/hr., $4000/hr. (WGI)? How many entries do you need to break even? How many staff do you need? Where do you get your staff? All questions that go into the pot.

I'm not trying to rain on the parade, only impart a little hard won knowledge from 11 years' involvement running a Series. It can be done, but it takes a lot of time, money, work and risk. There is also a lot of satisfaction if you succeed.

[lmpdesigner]

U are on target with the track time requirements
But that would before bespoke series on its own
Not as a piggyback onto an existing series like NASA or Scca

Curious what previous series has tried the same thing?
Not sure of any
Do you have examples of when and where this was tried?
Always willing to learn from them

Thanks for input
What I am after

[phantomjock]

NASA (the racing org - not Space Agency) did/does a 25 hour at Thunderhill, out west. It has been "sponsored" in the past by USAF - not sure to what extent. It did include NASA ESR class (which is how I am modding my Spec Racer). Lights, front and rear, brake lights and of course numbers lighted. Bigger fuel tank(s), and, yes endurance tires (Toyo R888s). A Spec Racer Ford (SRF) with similar mods went 18hrs on the Toyos before swap. They planned on all 25 hours, and thought in hindsight "might have made it," but went cautious instead. The ESR has a "look and feel" of SCCA Regional SPU Class - under 2.5L, unlimited mods except safety (as I recall).

Central FL region does an Enduro at the SARRC doubles. A wider group than you have suggested,and SRFs participate. Upwards of 40+ cars run at Sebring. That is only 1 event, for the weekend, and only seems to play at Sebring. Practice and qual is handled on Saturday P&Q. Enduro in afternoon, then the doubles on Sunday. Rules and times posted on the CFR website. More opportunity = Better!

I'm guessing limiting to Sports Racers only is to showcase the class and a particular model? Certainly other purpose built cars, thinking SRF GenII/GenIII and mods would not detract from the event and give more revenue to support.

Meanwhile, I'm off in Thailand - doing boat work, waiting to return to racing.

Cheers - Jim

[mikey]

As long as nobody named Jon Lewis is involved, I'd be interested in buying a seat!

[Purple Frog]

Spend a few hours talking to Bob Wright. You must do the math.

Other than that... why dis-allow pro drivers. They are the one that can afford to run a complete series. If you hand out prize money, then the winner of your first event won't be allowed at the second, because he/she is now a pro driver.

[allof6]

There are several Road Racing Go Kart series that run on big tracks over the course of 2 and 3 day weekends where a joint effort may be possible. I would look to them plus you are show casing to potential new clients.

One series is Championship Enduro Series. Dave Larson is the contact there. you can google the website for contact info...

Food for thought.

PS he is also a motorsports insurance supplier.

[provamo]

i think you should approach NAZKAR

[HazelNut]

I have a radical SR3 I'd be interested in running in this series it if it happens.

Any ideas on entry fees and a possible schedule? or still too early? Also what qualifies as a "Pro" driver? Would my SCCA pro license that I had for Bob Wrights F2000 series disqualify me for this series?

[HazelNut]

Any news on this?

[gfastr]

U are on target with the track time requirements
But that would before bespoke series on its own
Not as a piggyback onto an existing series like NASA or Scca

Curious what previous series has tried the same thing?
Not sure of any
Do you have examples of when and where this was tried?
Always willing to learn from them

Thanks for input
What I am after

Not to be a wet blanket, but NARRA had a Radical series that usually drew 6-12 cars, then they expanded eligibility and all the Radicals disappeared and entries were in the 4-6 range.

[turnbaugh]

U are on target with the track time requirements
But that would before bespoke series on its own
Not as a piggyback onto an existing series like NASA or Scca

Curious what previous series has tried the same thing?
Not sure of any
Do you have examples of when and where this was tried?
Always willing to learn from them

Thanks for input
What I am after

I would love to see this happen. We tried it here in Texas running under NASA sanction. Lasted 4 races and then the participation dropped. NASA couldn't justify 4 hours of track time with 5 cars running around.

Last year we did the USPC with NARRA. Lasted 4 races. Started with 16 cars. Dropped to 8.

I am not sure what the secret formula is. I sure didn't discover it. In both cases we had a large number of people that said they were excited and promised to participate.

Some didn't like SCCA anymore. Some didn't like sprint formats. Some thought the scheduling mid week for IMSA Lites was too difficult to do.

We even provided prize money. Great trophies. (no plastic allowed)

Entry fees were very reasonable.

We had multiple classes to accommodate different cars.

Travel distance seemed to be a factor.

Motorsports Southwest is very interested and would be happy to help get it going if we can find the secret formula.

[lmpdesigner]

Just for all:

Still working thru concept and details. A lot of "what if's and issues to deal with".

But can add the following:

Talking to 2 different Sanctioning bodies. With a 3rd in line.

Will allow "pro drivers". Not sure what that means yet. Right now we are defining pro drivers are people whose income/job is to drive a race car. Not someone who has been paid to race. There is a difference.

Still focused on sports racers. Not sedans or formula cars.

Not sure/sold on success ballast. Would prefer not to.

Most of what I wrote before in terms of the "meat" of the series is still there. Biggest issue is working out a business deal that is affordable. The numbers are tough to make work but not as bad as expected. Advantage this concept has is that we still have a fairly good series sponsor who still wants something like this.

Biggest unknown (and problem) is the lack of confidence in "how many people will show up".

What would help is some idea of what sort of financial costs people can afford to do this.

Assume for a full "on it's own" series. Say 6-8 races. Full weekend. 14 hours of track time for weekend. Assume you have 3 drivers to share costs. Assume tires would last 2 weekends.

What kind of budgets can people afford?

We have a preliminary cost (averaged out) of about $30k a day to hold a race. So $60K a weekend.

If we had 10 cars and 3 drivers/car then assume "60" payments then the entry fee would be $1000. More than SCCA but then you get a lot more track time. But 10 cars and 60 drivers may be optimistic.

And then travel, food, tires, fuel, etc.

And the 30k a day may be low.

Need to get better cost data. Big issue is accurate numbers for the "whole package".

Any info anybody can supply would be helpful.

In any case things are still moving fwd-slowly. A lot of issues still to resolve. May never happen but not giving up on it until all options exhausted.

[HazelNut]

in the f2cs pro series entries were (still are) about $1000 per weekend. Test days were an additional fee. Tires were about $1000ish and they lasted one weekend. You needed at least a set, often more depending on testing.

Also you were allowed to run up to 6 tires per weekend (in official sessions, test days didn't count against your allotted 6) and the front runners used all 6.


If this came in at those numbers I'd be interested. If I could split costs with my teammate that would be even better.

[mikey]

I'd definitely be in for $1000 entry fee. Assuming I can find a reasonable seat to buy into (I'm not going to be a car owner by myself). Does your math include insurance for yourself as an organizer? For the participants?

I'm also far more interested in an amateur level event than one which allows pros.

A couple other thoughts:
10 cars for an endurance event is not going to likely generate much long term interest. The attrition rate in a 14 hour race could easily be 50%. Even if everybody makes it to the end, 10 cars on a road course of any size means a lot of lonely driving and not much hardcore racing.

What about looking at SRF as a platform - there is a wide population and it's relatively cheap to own/operate. Perhaps your best opportunity for reducing your unknown risk in how many participants will show up. Heck if SRF were the platform, I'd probably become a team owner because I could afford that and probably could enlist enough friends who would want in for those overall costs.

Last (and not offering this to suggest that anybody needs another junk car series), but at least look at the lemons and chump car series for some clues about generating success. While some do join for the 'goofy' factor, most are serious competitors who enjoy the endurance format but are stuck in these two series because its the only thing affordable. I'd argue for what goes into a junker ride for these series, an SRF could be done just as affordable.

Alibi: I don't know the endurance-ability of an SRF (can it run 14 hours between maintenance?)

[lmpdesigner]

My 2 biggest concerns would be:
Lap times will be racing against some quick SR type cars.
Don't want to big a speed differential

And then can an SRF go the distance?
Of course same question could be asked of a Stohr or West or a lot of other cars.
I would guess the SRF may actually have longer reliability

[Shiner]

I have been working on a similar format for open wheel cars. Until recently when I gathered some new info. on the SR side of things. Please email me so we can discuss further.

[phantomjock]

And then can an SRF go the distance?
Of course same question could be asked of a Stohr or West or a lot of other cars.
I would guess the SRF may actually have longer reliability

On the "left coast" in the 25 hours of Thunderhill, a modified SRF did just fine as I understand. They planned on the Toyos lasting all 25, but then swapped at 18 - being conservative. Changed fueling location for better access, and some aero mods as it was running in NASAs Endurance Class -- not a "Spec." This is how I am planning my mods on my "Sports Rambo" as well.

Heard no maintenance issues, but can contact one of the racers that participated on that. BTW - wasn't the SRF supposed to be a; Just Wash, Wax, and Race car?

Might be useful to "talk this up" over on the SpecRacer site?

Cheers - Jim

[JeffW]

I know many of you weren't even born then, but there was a great Enduro series one sponsored by Molyslip and the other by Alpine Breweries. One was a 3 hr event and the other a 4hr event - split into 2 x two hour races held on consecutive days. Loved that stuff because strategy came into play in addition to race car prep of course. Won two of these events in an Lola S2, with no mandatory stops and with no quick fill we had to make up time on the track between stops. All in the strategy. It would be easier now with mandatory stops and something called radios.....

I would encourage anyone who hasn't tried it to seriously consider it. However I would guess that asking for lights is a serious deterrent and shouldn't even be considered until a series is well established, and then the competitors solicited for their input.

JeffW

[Phantom_9192]

I would certainly take a look at SRF/SRF3 as a potential option. I know there are a bunch of us who love to endurance race and don't get the chance to very often.
The SRF platform is excellent for endurance events - the two biggest factors are generally the alternator and wheel bearings. With some prep, a car should go 24 hours without an issue barring some other unexpected failure. I ran a Renault SR in a 24 hour race and we lost a tranny but otherwise it was great. None of the other cars lost their tranny and ours went because we lost the drain plug (d'oh). It ran for 3 more hours after going over a mile with no tranny fluid back to the pits before it expired.

The Gen3's are new enough that I can't say with certainty that they will be as solid but my feel is that they will be more so. They weigh less and we now have vented rotors (better on bearings) and they have a much improved electrical system and alternator over the old-style alts in the Gen2.

Just my .02 but if you're looking to fill out the field then the SRF/3 environment is worth consideration. Lots of cars and lots of drivers and a great platform to boot.

RacerX