CRB letters - equalize engines in F500

[cory mcleod]

For those of you that don't frequent the F500.us forum, attached are 3 requests that Jack Walbran recently submitted to the CRB, to help equalize the dissimilar engine/transmission packages in F500.

If you have an opinion, make it known to the CRB!

Cory

[Purple Frog]

Folks,

As a member of the FSRAC I can report that in our meeting last evening your letters and the discussions many of us had at the Daytona Runons were the #1 topic.

There are announcements forthcoming regarding a possible solution to the discord.

I am not at liberty to "pre announce". You should be hearing something in the next two weeks.

You are free to continue writing letters.

[Hardingfv32]

Is the difference between the two lead Runoff F500s perceived as a HP and /or aero issue? They did seem to have a different rear deck treatment. Has lowering the rear height been shown to greatly reduce aero drag?

I seemed like the faster/winning car was terrible under braking compared to the second place car. Or could this have been just conservative driving on the part of the winning car.

Brian

[Jnovak]

Is the difference between the two lead Runoff F500s perceived as a HP and /or aero issue? They did seem to have a different rear deck treatment. Has lowering the rear height been shown to greatly reduce aero drag?

I seemed like the faster/winning car was terrible under braking compared to the second place car. Or could this have been just conservative driving on the part of the winning car.

Brian

Question 1: The difference between the winning car and the 2nd place car was mainly aero IMO. I worked for over a year doing CFD on the body and it payed off.

Question 2: the winning driver did not want to race with the 2nd place car in the infield as he did not want to get involved in any kind of an incident, so he simply let him have the lead through the infield nearly every lap. He was confident that his aero advantage would allow him to lead at the start finish. He was right. There was nothing wrong with the brakes.

[mcs11]

Tell that to Cal getting sideways multiple times in turn 1 and drag racing me to the kink where we went in side by side. Then he squeezed me too the grass as I went by going into the 2nd horseshoe. He was moving his entry line quite a bit going into turn 1 trying to throw me off too but i just went somewhere else and drove around. Was there more in the car? Probably. Not as much as everybody keeps leading on too though. I didn't really stand on it til the last 2 laps either but I'm getting kinda tired of seeing he just let me go every single time when there were quite a few instances he clearly wasn't. If I had the power advantage out of slow corners and the aero advantage on top end too I cant say I blame him, I would of played the same game.

My onboard video will be on the Satellite Racing facebook page tonight for anybody who would like to see it in true 1st person POV.

[Jnovak]

No question that you drove a fabulous race Matt. You were faster in the infield and Cal was faster on the oval. That was not an accident. That is the way we set the car up before we left Michigan. The decision to concentrate on the oval was made before we ever got to Daytona and we continued to trim the car out every single session. For sure that setup compromised the handling on the infield but we made the right choice IMO.

There is no doubt in my mind that you can be a very serious challenger for winning the Runoffs.

[problemchild]

Tell that to Cal getting sideways multiple times in turn 1 and drag racing me to the kink where we went in side by side. Then he squeezed me too the grass as I went by going into the 2nd horseshoe. He was moving his entry line quite a bit going into turn 1 trying to throw me off too but i just went somewhere else and drove around. Was there more in the car? Probably. Not as much as everybody keeps leading on too though. I didn't really stand on it til the last 2 laps either but I'm getting kinda tired of seeing he just let me go every single time when there were quite a few instances he clearly wasn't. If I had the power advantage out of slow corners and the aero advantage on top end too I cant say I blame him, I would of played the same game.

My onboard video will be on the Satellite Racing facebook page tonight for anybody who would like to see it in true 1st person POV.

Nobody that watched the race and saw Calvin pull you by 10 car lengths in the first 50 car lengths onto the oval will believe that it was "just aero". Nice job by both drivers to take advantage of their strengths. In most of the formula classes, the fastest through the infield by your margin would have won the race by half a lap.

[mcs11]

here's the video. 2 things to notice from it.

Note 1: Some of the 2 stroke crowd was crying "we geared for top end and had no acceleration" well if you watch the video at 37 seconds in you'll see James poke his nose ahead of mine before we all get on the brakes. Especially impressive since according to this picture I was actually ahead at the line on the start

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d1...psczxnt4ly.jpg

Since it was the start and we were coming from 50ish mph I'd say his acceleration was pretty spot on with mine. For confirmation you can see it again shortly after when I get loose in the International horsehsoe and he pokes his nose in. We drag race down the straight and by time we get to the kink you can see him in my mirror in the same spot. I'd say acceleration was damn close and our top end when I wasn't getting pulled from Cal was also within 1mph according to SCCA time cards. Cal could out accelerate you, yes. The rest of us? Not so much.

Note 2: Also at the start, can clearly see both me and Clint get the initial jump on Cal before he decided to hit the gas and motored by us and had 2 car lengths before getting on the brakes for T1. If you try to argue that is aero you are either a pathological liar or delusional.

What irritates me is 1 person went out and spent thousands and thousands on an engine. It is currently legal and good job finding a legal way to go faster. However, knowing how SCCA does their performance balancing type stuff in this class previously, rather then slowing down cars running those engine add ons, they penalize everything with a similar engine. So now people like me have to either accept being unnecessarily slowed down OR spend thousands of dollars in a budget class to keep up. Will this video change anything with the CRB or FSRAC since Frog has already made it clear they have their changes? Probably not but I want the video evidence out there so people can see why I'm so frustrated by this crap. I don't want dry sumps outlawed, it's stupid to ban something that gives more reliability. I do want to slow it and other auxiliary add ons performance advantage down though.

https://www.facebook.com/SatelliteRa...5374105199762/

[clint]

No question that you drove a fabulous race Matt. You were faster in the infield and Cal was faster on the oval. That was not an accident. That is the way we set the car up before we left Michigan. The decision to concentrate on the oval was made before we ever got to Daytona and we continued to trim the car out every single session. For sure that setup compromised the handling on the infield but we made the right choice IMO.

There is no doubt in my mind that you can be a very serious challenger for winning the Runoffs.

Ok, I've kept my mouth shut on this as well as biting my tongue in half to keep the peace long enough. Instead of posting split times,videos and theories I'm just going to stay simple. Not taking anything away from Cal, but his car was so fast in a straight line that Cory or chuck could have won the runoffs in it. The whole aero thing is getting on my nerves a bit because it's been "oversold " from the beginning which includes every interview and post. Anyone that has a brain knows that this is only a low percentage of the reason that the gap was consistently pulled on the entire field coming out of turn 6 onto the oval. The total estimated hp advantage that Cals car had is 12-17 hp. This is how I came up with that. Dry sump 6-8 hp, vacuum pump 3-4 hp,newer motor that wasn't available to be dyno tested at the time the rules were written 1-2, electric water pump 2-3 hp. Now, you can argue this but anyone who runs a bike motor knows that I'm spot on including you and Cal. Stop the BS about aero being the largest portion of the reason for the 15-20 car length per lap advantage. I know the argument that's been said time and time again as to why Cal was "letting" Matt by on the in field was due to strategy. If that was the strategy for the race then why would you use the same strategy from the Qual to race with? In other words , your "published strategy" is a little weak to say the least. Again , we'll played for this year's runoffs. HOWEVER, now that we KNOW FOR A FACT that what was supposed to be a reliability rule for the dry sump to be allowes is now a major performance advantage. A ADJUSTMENT MUST BE MADE TO KEEP PARITY. If I see one more post about the aero being the majority of the reason for this win I will post a list of things that are factual and undeniable that will undoubtedly embarrass anyone that continues with the aero BS.

[clint]

here's the video. 2 things to notice from it.

Note 1: Some of the 2 stroke crowd was crying "we geared for top end and had no acceleration" well if you watch the video at 37 seconds in you'll see James poke his nose ahead of mine before we all get on the brakes. Especially impressive since according to this picture I was actually ahead at the line on the start

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d1...psczxnt4ly.jpg

Since it was the start and we were coming from 50ish mph I'd say his acceleration was pretty spot on with mine. For confirmation you can see it again shortly after when I get loose in the International horsehsoe and he pokes his nose in. We drag race down the straight and by time we get to the kink you can see him in my mirror in the same spot. I'd say acceleration was damn close and our top end when I wasn't getting pulled from Cal was also within 1mph according to SCCA time cards.

Note 2: Also at the start, can clearly see both me and Clint get the initial jump on Cal before he decided to hit the gas and motored by us and had 2 car lengths before getting on the brakes for T1. If you try to argue that is aero you are either a pathological liar or delusional.

What irritates me is 1 person went out and spent thousands and thousands on an engine. It is currently legal and good job finding a legal way to go faster. However, knowing how SCCA does their performance balancing type stuff in this class previously, rather then slowing down cars running those engine add ons, they penalize everything with a similar engine. So now people like me have to either accept being unnecessarily slowed down OR spend thousands of dollars in a budget class to keep up. Will this video change anything with the CRB since Frog has already made it clear they have their changes? Probably not but I want the video evidence out there so people can see why I'm so frustrated by this crap. I don't want dry sumps outlawed, it's stupid to ban something that gives more reliability. I do want to slow it and other auxiliary add ons performance advantage down though.

https://www.facebook.com/SatelliteRa...5374105199762/

Matt has posted his video, I bet that Cals video will not be posted with the sound. Excuses for not posting Cals video...... don't want to, it didn't record, don't feel the need to, there's nothing good going to come of it, it won't make a difference. There's a few I left out but I don't want anyone not to have a excuse as to why they can't post their videos. Of course in my mind or most anyone's that's reading this post will conclude that a " no balls " factor had 99.9% of the reason to do with not posting it.

[preform resources]

WOW, it seems like the venue (Daytona ) has created a lot of monsters!!

[Jnovak]

Thanks very much for posting your video Matt. I note that the couple of times that you and Cal were right with each other in the slow stuff your acceleration was as good as his or perhaps even a little better on the short chutes in the infield portion.

I also note that a couple of times you were very close to Cal coming out of the bus stop and that you could actually draft right up to him but then when you would pull out there was no way you could pass him as you hit the aero wake off of his car and you actually slowed down a bit.

Now every time he passed you on the oval he had your draft and went by you like a shot. But remember that he had your bigger draft and much better aero (believe it or not).

I simply do not understand how you can complain about Calvin spending thousands and thousands of $$$$ to get the best engine. Not only is this not true but I want to know how you think you know this? Cal's engine is a 2011 off of eBay that cost $1650 plus shipping. The engine has NEVER been apart or even had a cover off of it. It has NEVER been out of the car for any reason other than to fit the dry sump pump and put the oil line fittings into our oil pan.

I do think that your motor has a little better low end and that Cal's motor has better top end but that could be any number of things.

I hope that you can get back in the seat because you deserve it.

[SEComposites]

With open chassis rules races are won as much in the workshop as on the track. Great job by Jay and Cal. End of story.

[Calvin Stewart]

I really wasn't going to reply but what the heck! We worked our butts off for the last couple years to get ready for Daytona. I really enjoyed racing with Matt. I wouldn't dare take anything away from his drive. I only wish all three of us could have finished. Obviously we had an advantage on the big end. That was the plan. I remember from my karting days that you had to have the big end at Daytona. There is nothing we did that anyone in this class couldn't have done. I love this class with the bike motors because it's simpler to tune. My motor was bought on E Bay from a crashed GSXR 600 for 1650.00 and its BONE stock.That's cheaper than some of the Italian motors I use to put on my karts. I'm sure there are several guys in this class that have spent thousands and thousands on dyno time, testing and trying this or that. We have yet to dyno a motor. I could use some of your dyno data but I wouldn't dare ask for that. We prepared a car to win Daytona. Now that we went fast all I'm hearing is a lot of complaining. I didn't complain when we got smoked last year. We just stayed quiet and went to work. If I remember right this isn't a spec class, is it? You have the same GCR as I do. Why don't you just go to work and stop complaining.. There's nothing stopping you from doing the same thing. I considered putting my data, videos and all my notes online but thought that wasn't a good idea for me to do. This is still one of the cheapest formula classes in SCCA. I'm sure there are guys out there spending a lot more money than I do. Besides all the complaining, I do love racing The F5 class.

[SEComposites]

Well said!

[mcs11]

Jay we must have been watching different videos. Watch the start and watch me react to the flag quicker then Cal. Clint gets an initial jump too. Then when Cal puts his foot down he motors away before we even get to turn 1. Does the same in the infield when he was a full car length back coming out of the horseshoe yet was ahead by the kink. Wheres the aero in that?

Also id like to thank Cal for lifting on the banking a couple of times until I hit him at which point he realized that ptobably wasnt a good thing to do. Post your video up and prove me wrong Calvin but if you listen to mine when you're in front of me and quite honestly letting me take a look at drafting by, it sounds an awful lot like you're on and off the throttle to me both in person and the video. I would like for you to post yours though and prove me wrong.

[mcs11]

Jay 1 more thing. You're claiming the dry sump was 1500. Plus 1650 on the motor itself. So youre motor is worth over $3000 doing very basic math just from what you're claiming. Every company we've talked to regarding it is asking $3000 ball park for the sump system sp realistically its up around $4650 now. So what exactly is considered "budget" for those of us who still thought the $800 ebay engine is what the intent was? and not having the car on the dyno is all well and good but you told me specifically in an email you've been tuning the engine mapping so how exactly are you tuning that to exactly what you need without having had an engine on a dyno and knowing the numbers to shoot for?

[Jnovak]

Jay 1 more thing. You're claiming the dry sump was 1500. Plus 1650 on the motor itself. So youre motor is worth over $3000 doing very basic math just from what you're claiming. Every company we've talked to regarding it is asking $3000 ball park for the sump system sp realistically its up around $4650 now. So what exactly is considered "budget" for those of us who still thought the $800 ebay engine is what the intent was? and not having the car on the dyno is all well and good but you told me specifically in an email you've been tuning the engine mapping so how exactly are you tuning that to exactly what you need without having had an engine on a dyno and knowing the numbers to shoot for?

Well your forgetting plenty of other stuff, like headers, plumbing, wiring, spare ecu, software, jumper harness etc. you guys know all of that stuff too as you have it.

Actually the parts for the dry sump cost less than $1500. Of course I did not charge Calvin for labor.
Costs:
1. Dry sump pump $700
2. Dry sump tank from EBay $150
3. Electric water pump $95
4. Misc lines and fittings $175
5. Machine our existing oil pan for fittings $250
6. Now I could have charged Calvin a small fortune for the research, the sketches, the design brainstorming etc. but I did not because we are a team.
We used our existing oil cooler and lines and fittings. If we had decided to do it from the get go we could have done it for less.

I see no reason why you guys could not do exactly the same thing. Go for it.

[mcs11]

So how much are you going to charge in labor for somebody like Chris Ross, Tedd Simmons, or anybody else with 1 of your cars that needs such a system installed to be conpetitve with the incoming rules changes?

[Jnovak]

Here is some dyno work from a company that sells headers. These curves show bone stock GSXR600 and with a full race exhaust system but with the free flow muffler they sell. THESE ARE STOCK ENGINES AND ECUs AND THESE RESULTS WERE DONE ON A CHASSIS DYNO. I HAVE BEEN TOLD BY THE GUY THAT DID DYNO WORK THAT THIS IS VERY REPRESENTATIVE OF BONE STOCK 600s ON THEIR DYNO.

2007 GSXR600
http://www.twobros.com/Cust_Service/...00_FULL_JB.pdf

2011 GSXR600
http://www.twobros.com/Cust_Service/...xr600_FULL.pdf

Wait a minute, I want your engine outlawed.

Some day this winter we will go to the dyno.

[Jnovak]

So how much are you going to charge in labor for somebody like Chris Ross, Tedd Simmons, or anybody else with 1 of your cars that needs such a system installed to be conpetitve with the incoming rules changes?

I suggest that you figure out how to do it yourself. Just like we did.

I have no knowledge what the new rules will be but I am sure we will be very competitive.

BTW this is my last post on this subject. I am busy designing updates to the Blade to make it better.

[clint]

Here is some dyno work from a company that sells headers. These curves show bone stock GSXR600 and with a full race exhaust system but with the free flow muffler they sell.

2007 GSXR600
http://www.twobros.com/Cust_Service/...00_FULL_JB.pdf

2011 GSXR600
http://www.twobros.com/Cust_Service/...xr600_FULL.pdf

Wait a minute, I want your engine outlawed.

Some day this winter we will go to the dyno.

I love how selective posting is becoming the standard now days.

[clint]

I really wasn't going to reply but what the heck! We worked our butts off for the last couple years to get ready for Daytona. I really enjoyed racing with Matt. I wouldn't dare take anything away from his drive. I only wish all three of us could have finished. Obviously we had an advantage on the big end. That was the plan. I remember from my karting days that you had to have the big end at Daytona. There is nothing we did that anyone in this class couldn't have done. I love this class with the bike motors because it's simpler to tune. My motor was bought on E Bay from a crashed GSXR 600 for 1650.00 and its BONE stock.That's cheaper than some of the Italian motors I use to put on my karts. I'm sure there are several guys in this class that have spent thousands and thousands on dyno time, testing and trying this or that. We have yet to dyno a motor. I could use some of your dyno data but I wouldn't dare ask for that. We prepared a car to win Daytona. Now that we went fast all I'm hearing is a lot of complaining. I didn't complain when we got smoked last year. We just stayed quiet and went to work. If I remember right this isn't a spec class, is it? You have the same GCR as I do. Why don't you just go to work and stop complaining.. There's nothing stopping you from doing the same thing. I considered putting my data, videos and all my notes online but thought that wasn't a good idea for me to do. This is still one of the cheapest formula classes in SCCA. I'm sure there are guys out there spending a lot more money than I do. Besides all the complaining, I do love racing The F5 class.

Glad I left that excuse available for not posting a video

[Daryl DeArman]

We prepared a car to win Daytona.

If I remember right this isn't a spec class, is it? You have the same GCR as I do.

There's nothing stopping you from doing the same thing.

I get all this.

Lifting on the oval to not show all your cards. Only passing on the oval where you could site "great draft". Not posting video. Not disclosing dyno information.

I get all that too. It's all part of "racecraft" and what proved a successful strategy.

In a class with competition adjustments why would anybody go faster than necessary to win? Why would anybody, with a legal advantage, share their data?

My hat's off to both of these drivers, one for getting 100% out of his car and the other for managing to bring a gun to a knife fight legally.

All that being said, I find it unfathomable that anybody planning a serious effort at the biggest race of their year would spend all that time, money and effort preparing all the various bits of the car and then plug in an ebay motor without removing a cover to inspect and/or spending time on a dyno. BS meter severely pegged.

[mcs11]

I suggest that you figure out how to do it yourself. Just like we did.

I have no knowledge what the new rules will be but I am sure we will be very competitive.

BTW this is my last post on this subject. I am busy designing updates to the Blade to make it better.

I didn't ask for me because I know you're to scared to help out somebody who can out drive you're engineering at every other track around the country except 1. I asked for your customers sake who you should consider part of your "team"

[mcs11]

You have the same GCR as I do. Why don't you just go to work and stop complaining.. There's nothing stopping you from doing the same thing. I considered putting my data, videos and all my notes online but thought that wasn't a good idea for me to do. This is still one of the cheapest formula classes in SCCA. I'm sure there are guys out there spending a lot more money than I do. Besides all the complaining, I do love racing The F5 class.

I do have the same GCR you do and have the very same first definition of the class you do also

D. FORMULA 500 PREPARATION RULES
1. Definition
A class for single seat, open wheel, rigid suspension race cars using either a snowmobile derived engine and drive components or a 600cc motor-cycle engine. Specifications are restrictive in nature in order to emphasize driver ability, rather than design.

You see the last line about driver ability rather then design as the number 1 definition of the class? You designed a better car then the rest of us. congrats fine with that even if it goes against the very definition of the class. Thats just racing. What I'm not fine with is you and Jay pushing people like me with the "nothing is stopping you from doing it" message. Money. Money is stopping me from doing it. Any other class and whatever thats just how it is, but being in what's supposed to be an entry level budget class you're starting to price people out of it doing that kind of garbage.

[SEComposites]

Ah, that's where Jay has been going wrong. Next time you design a car make sure you only do half a job. How exactly do you quantify whether a design meets this nonsensical rule!?

The way I read that rule is that the regs are restricted as they are, so in theory clever designers can't create a faster car. If that's not proving to be the case then either the regs need to be changed or it needs to be spec car. Or it's just fine as it is. I've had a car on the drawing board for a few years but its never progressed partly because of this nonsense. Why would I not do the best job I possibly could in designing a car?

'Specifications are restrictive in nature in order to emphasize driver ability, rather than design.'

That's a rule for a spec class and needs to be edited out of the F500 rule set in my opinion.

[clint]

Ah, that's where Jay has been going wrong. Next time you design a car make sure you only do half a job. How exactly do you quantify whether a design meets this nonsensical rule!?

The way I read that rule is that the regs are restricted as they are, so in theory clever designers can't create a faster car. If that's not proving to be the case then either the regs need to be changed or it needs to be spec car. Or it's just fine as it is. I've had a car on the drawing board for a few years but its never progressed partly because of this nonsense. Why would I not do the best job I possibly could in designing a car?

'Specifications are restrictive in nature in order to emphasize driver ability, rather than design.'

That's a rule for a spec class and needs to be edited out of the F500 rule set in my opinion.

I wasn't aware that anyone was allowed to design a motor. I thought that was the manufactures job. You know, Honda ,suzuki, yamaha..........There's no question that Jay and cal did a great job in their homework, but the rule for the dry sump was never intended to be anything other than a reliability rule. Certainly not a 12-17hp advantage with the excuse of it being more reliable when considering that no one has popped a motor with a wet sump pan in two years or more.

[SEComposites]

Just out of interest how do you know that is the power advantage from a dry sump?

If it's in the rules and legal but gives an advantage that's an issue for the rule makers not the car designers. Designing a dry sump system is not really designing an engine.

Do you think the winning car was sand bagging in qualifying? Not that that's a problem, I'm just curious.

[mcs11]

Must of missed the following sentence then where I said "thats racing" relating to that definition but I digress. Its a proven and know fact its a power advantage. You'll hear anything from 6-12 depending on who you ask. We saw just shy of 8 when we installed it on the SAE car. My opinion the engine addon pieces should go the same way as the coil over shocks that have been discussed at nauseum for this class. Unnecessary spending of money. However since Cal already has it and spent the money on it AND it is good for reliability I don't want to ban it. The performance advantage they have however needs to be dealt with. They built a better legal car and I've applauded them for it multiple times. With that I still dont agree that all of us should be restricted just because some people have bought more power over others. I'd change rules for the bodywork too personally which would include changing cars I drive. Keep it entry level like the class is supposed to be. Full blown front downforce producing diffusers ripped straight from an LMP style car and covered suspensions have no place in a "formula" class in my opinion but that's another subject for another day.

[mcs11]

By the way, has nobody in this thread noticed I'm in the minority by not calling to ban the system entirely? Majority of the 4 stroke and 2 stroke crowd (with the exception of 2 "special" people wanting to unrestrict everything) wants it gone entirely. I can't count how many I've talked to in hopes of changing their opinions from banning it to just slowing it down.

[Jnovak]

By the way, has nobody in this thread noticed I'm in the minority by not calling to ban the system entirely? Majority of the 4 stroke and 2 stroke crowd (with the exception of 2 "special" people wanting to unrestrict everything) wants it gone entirely. I can't count how many I've talked to in hopes of changing their opinions from banning it to just slowing it down.

Ok, my apologies, another last post.

I do not care if we do not have the dry sump. Please remember that I wrote the original rule set and MY rule set said that dry sumps we not allowed. The CRB added the statement that dry sumps are allowed.

Jack Walbran suggested in one of his letters to add 25 lbs for dry sump. I do not care.

You may not like my car Matt but it is totally writhin the current rules as written.

BTW Matt, the nose on the car you raced is actually out of a mold that was made off of one of our noses from the NovaKars that won both the 2007 and the 2014 Runoffs. Can't be too bad.

[Daryl DeArman]

Don't add weight to the dry sump and electric water pump folks.

Slap a 29mm restrictor on there. Let them decide if they want the added weight of the components, the same "ish" net HP, and a bit better reliability.

The electric water pump is not only saving HP from drag it's allowing them to better control coolant temps regardless of engine RPM and run a better aero package (which includes radiator size).

[Brian.Novak]

A couple points to note -

• Cal's car did not have a vacuum pump on it.
• Both wet and dry sump have been on the car with both electric and non-electric pump. The cooling package was not changed at all between the two. I'll just head that one off
• Aero does matter.... A LOT, and not just at top end and not just at Daytona. We haven't run sportscar noses since 1984 for nothing.
• As always, a significant amount of engineering work, hard work, and a very huge database of acquired knowledge has gone into our cars and not just in the powertrain. Sorry about that.

As for the dry sump system, we have no desire to make a kit for every car out there with exact instructions / parts etc, which is where my dad was going but we are all too amped. The cars in the class are just too varied to put that together and we are not interested in doing it. Our sump tank might not fit on another car, routings are different and need other fittings etc. However, we will gladly sell you a dry sump pan or if you have one of our wet pans, modify that one. Then we can give you a general schematic and a parts list of what to do and where to get it and gladly consult but it is going to be up to the user to get it all functional.

As for rules, I'm staying out of that one. There clearly needs to be some type of BoP for 2-stroke v. 4-stroke v. dry sump v. wetsump, but I'm not getting anywhere near that discussion.

[Jnovak]

Thanks Brian.

[mcs11]

A couple points to note -

• Cal's car did not have a vacuum pump on it.
• Both wet and dry sump have been on the car with both electric and non-electric pump. The cooling package was not changed at all between the two. I'll just head that one off
• Aero does matter.... A LOT, and not just at top end and not just at Daytona. We haven't run sportscar noses since 1984 for nothing.
• As always, a significant amount of engineering work, hard work, and a very huge database of acquired knowledge has gone into our cars and not just in the powertrain. Sorry about that.

As for the dry sump system, we have no desire to make a kit for every car out there with exact instructions / parts etc, which is where my dad was going but we are all too amped. The cars in the class are just too varied to put that together and we are not interested in doing it. Our sump tank might not fit on another car, routings are different and need other fittings etc. However, we will gladly sell you a dry sump pan or if you have one of our wet pans, modify that one. Then we can give you a general schematic and a parts list of what to do and where to get it and gladly consult but it is going to be up to the user to get it all functional.

As for rules, I'm staying out of that one. There clearly needs to be some type of BoP for 2-stroke v. 4-stroke v. dry sump v. wetsump, but I'm not getting anywhere near that discussion.

no disrespect Brian but that didn't really answer anything. Chris has, theoretically, the same car as Cal so why cant there be a price if he wanted everything? Blanket included. I'd still like to know why somebody spends thousands buying/making various add on parts for a drivetrain and that winds up restricting ALL of the people who don't? Well aware aero matters alot which is why I thought it was stupid to penalize the entire class after the sprints last year when Clint in an aero car went up against Mueller in a non aero car. After I heard about Clint and Weida going toe to toe in Gingerman and we looked at data I was honestly fine with 31s vs the 32mm restrictors. 30 was ridiculous and you guys proved that in Laguna and SCCA reacted by going to the 31s. I said back then the differences at Road America were aero but nooo this backwoods hillbilly nobody has heard of before can't know what he's talking about. I was in the KBS Mk8 (also non aero) running the same motor as Clint (1hp difference and same torque between the 2). He had 13mph on top end over me at Road America, aero, no kidding. Our acceleration out of 2nd gear corners was the same though. At Daytona when we're all actually traveling at the same speed at the start Cal just straight up blitzed all of us before turn 1. Keep trying to spin that it was all aero and how hard you guys worked while we all sat around twiddling our thumbs. Nobody in our class or apparently other classes from the comments here are buying it. Thus my questions of why we all get punished for it.

Jay my comments about the aero were directed towards the rules. Please point to where I said I didn't like your car in particular or called the nose I used bad. I would like to edit my post to not reflect such feelings but my south Florida edumacation is catching up with me as I can't seem to find it.

[RobLav]

This thread highlights precisely why I'll never run in anything but FS again. It's kind of like buying a house in a Homeowner's Association (HOA) where your neighbors decide what you can and cannot do with your home.

[Hardingfv32]

Dry sump.... You'll hear anything from 6-12 depending on who you ask.

Is the stock power about 125ph? I have read 3-4% improvement for a dry sump system on most race engines. Part of the improvement comes from reduced ring tension and windage from a better pan design... neither which seems to be in play in this case. So 6-12hp would seem like a high estimate.

In the F500 aero thread it is stated that the winning car had 17% less frontal area. A FV needs 40-44 hp to compensate for aero drag at 100 mph. So a 17% reduction in frontal area could be though of as a reduction of 6.8 hp of drag in a FV. Now what happens if we raise the speed to 150 MPH in a F500?

Does anyone have data on the HP requirement required to over come aero drag at 150 mph in a F500? I think it is going to be a serious number.

This looks more like an aero than HP competition in the case of the F500 race at Daytona.

Brian

[mcs11]

For top speed sure. I've been saying the entire time the aero was the dominant factor there. Ive accepted that. What I'm referring to reflects what the 2 stroke guys had to say about slow corners. Theyre lumping all motorcycle powered cars into 1 group having more top end and better acceleration which flat out isnt true. Picture attached of a comment from 3rd place in a 2 stroke.

1 car was capable of doing what is said in the comment. 1 and I agree to a point because I watched him do it all week to both myself and James making the comment. Its most evident on the start when 2 cars pictured (myself and Clint in the pink car) clearly launch first, til Cal hits the gas and takes off.

[Jnovak]

I simply do not understand why so many of you think that aero starts at 100 mph or whatever the number is that you like. Aero drag start as soon as the vehicle is moving and increases exponentially with speed. Just because we are destroying you guys at top end does not mean that we are even with you at a lower speed. What tha laws of physics show is that we are better at EVERY SPEED. At EVERY SPEED we have MORE POWER that can be used as power to accelerate the car. Maybe it is only 5 hp aero advantage at 60 mph but it will be more than a 22 hp advantage at 100 mph. And the advantage grows with increasing speed.

Yes our engine makes more power than your engine. We have a better exhaust system than your cars have, guaranteed. We borrowed a set of headers from a National Champion winning GSXR600 engine and copied it to fit our car. I looked at the exhausts from the other fast cars and I bet ours makes 5 more Hp. There is more but why are we supposed to tell you what our advantages are?

Now about the dry sumps. Brian told you that we will define what parts you need and where to get them and EVEN modify your pan for you. What do you want? Do I have to come to your shop and install it for you too?

Now it is my turn to whine. I am 74 years old and have been doing this madness for over 50 years. I have no more help to give other than advice and even that is getting tougher to do.