What's next for FB?

[sprocketmensch]

With the runoffs over and a few fall races left on the schedule up here in the NE, it's time to start thinking about what 2016 brings for FB. In particular: will we continue to have the discussion about engines and restrictors? will there be an open ECU rule to allow for even more engines to enter the fray? what will Formula Lites and Formula 4 do to the growth of the class? Are we going to see a closed cockpit rule in the future as F1 and Indy are debating? How about electric? The Formula E class is more suited to our type of sprint race because of onboard battery power than the longer races its now doing. If a Tesla sedan can do 0-60 in 3.1 than what would a formula tesla/E/whatever do on a road course for a 25 or 30 or 40 minute race?

More questions than need be answered but I thought I'd start the discussion as our class starts to gain some maturity and will need to be looking forward if it is to survive.
Doug

[R. Pare]

Lites and F4 will most likely not affect the class at all - 2 very different clientele. One wants spec racing, and most likely the "arrive and drive" type packages, the other actually likes race crars and fiddling with them.

[provamo]

i am dilllying and dallying about buying a car (older guy seeking a come back LOL doing school in February)

loved a FM i drove and like the FE design but would miss the opportunity of messing with the cars

i would stay away from ANY spec class unless i could afford to arrive and drive

[ghickman]

Leave the class alone, don't mess with the current rules. Last years brush with restrictors was dumb. I refer to it as the "JRO RULE". Been in the sport long enough to know guys like JRO can put skate boards on the front row regardless.

I went to the CRB meeting at the Runoffs, the SCCA has admitted they don't have the staff to collect data from the AIM Solo loggers let alone analyze it. They are looking for volunteers at this point.

Based on the 20 car grid at Daytona FB has a bright future. I expect Mid-Ohio next year to be the same or better.

[John Mosteller]

Looking at the lap times from the runoffs if we don't want to restrict our speed we should be combined with FA.

[Jnovak]

Leave the class alone, don't mess with the current rules. Last years brush with restrictors was dumb. I refer to it as the "JRO RULE". Been in the sport long enough to know guys like JRO can put skate boards on the front row regardless.

I went to the CRB meeting at the Runoffs, the SCCA has admitted they don't have the staff to collect data from the AIM Solo loggers let alone analyze it. They are looking for volunteers at this point.

Based on the 20 car grid at Daytona FB has a bright future. I expect Mid-Ohio next year to be the same or better.

The FB ad hoc committee was directed to make sure the cars did not go any faster. So much for that. We were not directed to slow JR down.

Perhaps a merge with FA is the solution. LOL, just kidding

[BURKY]

Looking at the lap times from the runoffs if we don't want to restrict our speed we should be combined with FA.

Are you serious? You're kidding right???

[Nick77]

Leave the class alone, don't mess with the current rules. Last years brush with restrictors was dumb. I refer to it as the "JRO RULE". Been in the sport long enough to know guys like JRO can put skate boards on the front row regardless.

I went to the CRB meeting at the Runoffs, the SCCA has admitted they don't have the staff to collect data from the AIM Solo loggers let alone analyze it. They are looking for volunteers at this point.

Based on the 20 car grid at Daytona FB has a bright future. I expect Mid-Ohio next year to be the same or better.

Gary REALLY REALLY!!!!!!! Haven't you learned anything the past two years .
Jr is a great driver but come on really
Nick77

[jchracer]

I want everyone else to have a smaller restrictor........oh, and I want a pony too.....maybe two ponies......

Can we just have one class with a simple rulebook please.

[Mike Devins]

Perhaps a merge with FA is the solution.

What is wrong with FB the way it is, nice turnout - great racing - really nice sounding motors.

IMHO - combining FA and FB would create the same issues that we are seeing in P1 with vastly different weights and motor combinations.

Leave it alone please....

[Jnovak]

What is wrong with FB the way it is, nice turnout - great racing - really nice sounding motors.

IMHO - combining FA and FB would create the same issues that we are seeing in P1 with vastly different weights and motor combinations.

Leave it alone please....

I was just kidding

[jchracer]

I want everyone else to have a smaller restrictor........oh, and I want a pony too.....maybe two ponies......

Can we just have one class with a simple rulebook please.

For clarification, I am not advocating combining classes. Please leave FB alone.....Please leave it one of the only classes with a simple rule book. we don't need any more rules....we don't need restrictors to try to "equalize" different engines.

If SCCA thinks the cars are too fast in general and need to be slowed down, then one common restrictor for ALL engines would be the best thing.

JMO.

[Charles Livingston]

Merging FA and FB will ruin FB.

Atlantics are faster than FBs, at every track. At Daytona (which is an atypical track that likely flatters the FB relative to FA) the Atlantic pole time was about 3 seconds and the fastest race lap was about 3.5 seconds faster than the FB pole and fastest race lap, respectively. Moreover, in my experience, the speed differential between FA and FB is fairly close to the differential between FB and FC, which at least partially negates the argument that the speed differential between FA and FB is insufficient to support two different classes.

FA has a lower participation than FB, at something like a 4:3 ratio for 2015 majors. At Daytona there were twice the number of FBs, with Atlantic coming in at a meager 10.

Merging a faster, more expensive, and low (dying) participation level class with a growing class that already has a much higher participation level will ruin the latter class. Moreover, such a merger will not bring out more Atlantics (they are too expensive), rather it will reduce FB participation, for example because FB drivers won't want to compete against a tunnel car. (Personally, I can afford to run FB but can't to afford to run Atlantic and it does not seem appealing to effectively race with one hand tied behind my back against an Atlantic).

If Atlantic cannot sustain its own national class, merge it with FC or make it a regional class (part of FS?).

Charles Livingston
F1000 owner and driver

[Charles Livingston]

I was just kidding

I didn't see this before I posted my rant above. But, please don't even joke about this! With the merger discussion last year and the top speeds of FB (much less FB being faster than FA) at Daytona, I am afraid the SCCA will get spooked and do something stupid.

Charles

[Mike Devins]

I was just kidding

you are a very funny man

[BURKY]

For clarification, I am not advocating combining classes. Please leave FB alone.....Please leave it one of the only classes with a simple rule book. we don't need any more rules....we don't need restrictors to try to "equalize" different engines.

If SCCA thinks the cars are too fast in general and need to be slowed down, then one common restrictor for ALL engines would be the best thing.

JMO.

I'm confused... do you still want the ponies?

[Jnovak]

I'm confused... do you still want the ponies?

I believe Joel wants the ponies.

[Jnovak]

you are a very funny man

I thought you might find it amusing.

[ghickman]

I thought you might find it amusing.

I took that post seriously Jay, appears others did also. Suggest we don't go there again.

SLIGHT THREAD DETOUR BUT GERMANE
Sad fact is folks FA is going nowhere. There are no new cars being built and I do not see anything in the future for this class.

The cars are being poorly driven (in my opinion except for a few drivers Novak being one of them). It's a bunch of old pro level gear that filtered down to the club level. These cars use up parts and they're expensive to keep running.

FB is so much more entertaining than FA and the drivers in FB have elevated their skill level. This is the reason why FB's are going so quick now, it's the drivers and the development curve we've put our cars on.

[John Mosteller]

Merging FA and FB will ruin FB.

Atlantics are faster than FBs, at every track. At Daytona (which is an atypical track that likely flatters the FB relative to FA) the Atlantic pole time was about 3 seconds and the fastest race lap was about 3.5 seconds faster than the FB pole and fastest race lap, respectively. Moreover, in my experience, the speed differential between FA and FB is fairly close to the differential between FB and FC, which at least partially negates the argument that the speed differential between FA and FB is insufficient to support two different classes.

The FA's are not faster at every track. The Runoffs are going to Mid Ohio next year so how did the FA's and FB's compare at this years Major at Mid Ohio.

First Qual 4.293 sec difference advantage FB first four FB's faster than all FA's
Second Qual 6.284 sec difference advantage FB five fastest FB's faster than all FA's
Sprint Race 3.667 sec difference advantage FB first four FB's finished ahead of all FA's
Race all FB's finished ahead of all FA's

SCCA is a club that has always tried to have a class for everyone to compete in. With FA dying out they will probably try to combine them with another class. It is highly unlikely that FA will be combined with any Formula class other than FB.

FA is a lot more mature class than FB so probably won't get any faster. But FB is still under a lot of development and will likely get much faster especially if the engines are left unrestricted.

If it was up to me I would be proactive and ask for a restrictor plate of the same size for all the current engines that would not restrict the current engines and that would limit our speed like the CRB wanted before something worse happens like combination.

[R. Pare]

FA's are faster when set up correctly and driven decently. Unfortunately, that is the exception rather than the rule in the Club currently.

[Bob Wright]

Umm. There is often a problem taking single point data and making broad statements. FB is certainly a fast class, but I think FA has a history of being faster as a general rule. At MO the top FB's seem to capable of laps in the low 1:23's or high 1:22's. A well driven FA is considerably faster (Daniel Burkett in the 2014 Majors race at 1:19.2). As a reference, but not a comparison, we saw FA laps in the 1:16's on the pro configuration both this year and last. And if you really want to compare...Graham Rayhal in a 016 Pro Atlantic at I think a 1:12 or something back in the day.

Its hard to beat 300HP and tunnels...

Also, if one wanted to buy a new Swift 016, it can be arranged through Comprent.

[Stan Clayton]

Our experience (winning the FA Runoffs at MO in 2003) is that Richard and Bob are correct...a well driven FA is faster than an equally well driven FB at nearly any track, given known times and current rules. That's just an observation, not a comment on any driver at any particular event. Anyway, at MO in 2002 the pole was (IIRC) a 1:20-flat. The next year Rennie logged a 1:17.9 in practice. A crash in Q1 kept us from improving on that, but those times were in a Ralt RT-41 with a 1600cc engine making barely 250 hp. Today's cars would be faster everywhere. Again, IIRC in 2005 Rahal qualified at a 1:15 and logged a fast race lap in the 15's, all in a Swift 014. I don't see FBs threatening those times.

For the record I am NOT advocating merging FA and FB. That said, I agree that a merger CAN be done. I ALSO agree that in that event, FB should be the dominant rule set. Simply choke back the FAs to slow them by several seconds and it's done. The problem is that the Swift 008 and 014 intakes are not set up for chokes (the earlier cars are), which would make such a change problematical for them, so perhaps this option is best left on the table.

A second option would be to speed up the FB cars with open engine rules and maybe a required dry sump system to help preserve the engines, then let them run heads-up with current FAs. I'll leave the active FB guys to wrestle with that one.

Finally, just as back in the early 80's when the then-FA class with its 5 liter V-8 engines fell on hard times and were relegated to FS, and the then-FB cars (today's Atlantics) were promoted to the top rung, the current FAs could be reclassified to FS and today's FBs promoted to the top rung (with or without a name change). That won't be popular with the active FA guys, but honestly our cars are worth more as vintage-correct entries than as FAs anyway, so I'm not too clear on the downside.

Have fun!

[R. Pare]

Best option is to just let FA die a natural death over time.

[glenn cooper]

2016 Zed X 10 R announced for 2016.
207, bone stock HP...

[billwald]

Now were talking.. I want one.

2016 Zed X 10 R announced for 2016.
207, bone stock HP...

[ghickman]

2016 Zed X 10 R announced for 2016.
207, bone stock HP...

Purchase a 2016 Phoenix and you can have it.

[Stan Clayton]

Purchase a 2016 Phoenix and you can have it.

Or...you know, a new set of spar sideplates. (Sorry Gary! )

[jchracer]

2016 Zed X 10 R announced for 2016.
207, bone stock HP...

And red line is?

[BURKY]

http://lanesplitter.jalopnik.com/the...t-s-1735434296

[Stan Clayton]

http://lanesplitter.jalopnik.com/the...t-s-1735434296

Niiice! So it'll still be a really great FB engine even with its inlet restrictors!

[jchracer]

2016 Zed X 10 R announced for 2016.
207, bone stock HP...

Just read the specs on this. The 207 claimed HP is WITH ram-air. Doing a little back of the napkin calculations yields some interesting results. If the ram air was done at 200 MPH, the non-ram-air number would be about 195 HP. So, the jury is still out as far as I am concerned regarding how the new engine compares to the old one and the Suzuki.

[Brian.Novak]

A well prepped and driven Atlantic is quicker than a well prepped and driven FB. The cars are far too different to really combine well from a cost perspective and how they get the lap times done. I wouldn't combine them, either FA makes it or it doesn't. No one in FB is going to like getting their butt kicked consistently by a really good Atlantic, and no one in Atlantic is going to want to slow the cars down.

You guys sure can derail on a joke pretty quick, way to go dad

[Mike Devins]

It will also be interesting to see how the ECU works in a car with the issues associated with the traction control, bmw made it near impossible to make it work in a car.

[Jnovak]

The reality is that the 1000cc bike engines are seriously at the functional limits of hp. The only way they will get more power is more RPM and that is unlikely. The valve trains are now over 13,000 rpm and any higher will require pneumatic or desmodromic valve actuation. I do not see this happening due to costs.

On top of the technical aspect of more RPM I doubt that the SCCA would ever allow those new tachnologies into this class.

Just my thoughts, keep racing FB, what a great class!

[reidhazelton]

Just thinking out loud here....given the speed FB has reached, and given the quickly decreasing costs of carbon tubs (F4), what does the FB community think about allowing carbon tubs as the next evolution of FB?

[ghickman]

Just thinking out loud here....given the speed FB has reached, and given the quickly decreasing costs of carbon tubs (F4), what does the FB community think about allowing carbon tubs as the next evolution of FB?

From a safety standpoint makes some sense. But in the spirit that this class was grown out of I would say no.

I would rather see it stay as it is and just let the class continue to grow. This class is for drivers that want to explore the limits of aero vs mechanical grip in cars that look and sound badass.

And forgot to mention while doing it in cars that don't all look the same.

[Daryl DeArman]

The reality is that the 1000cc bike engines are seriously at the functional limits of hp.

"They" were saying that 100HP ago....naturally aspirated and 1.5 HP/cubic inch and all.

The only way they will get more power is more RPM and that is unlikely. The valve trains are now over 13,000 rpm and any higher will require pneumatic or desmodromic valve actuation. I do not see this happening due to costs.

Ducati has done the desmo valve thing for a long long time. That cost isn't an issue where HP wars and the related sales that accompany the title are concerned.

The R1 comes with a 14,500 rpm redline....of course Yamaha got in trouble with the R6 stating it had a 17,500 redline when it was really 16,200.

There's also another point or so available on the compression ratio side of things.

[Jnovak]

"They" were saying that 100HP ago....naturally aspirated and 1.5 HP/cubic inch and all.

Ducati has done the desmo valve thing for a long long time. That cost isn't an issue where HP wars and the related sales that accompany the title are concerned.

The R1 comes with a 14,500 rpm redline....of course Yamaha got in trouble with the R6 stating it had a 17,500 redline when it was really 16,200.

There's also another point or so available on the compression ratio side of things.

How much does the Desmosedici cost? Only $72,500. Daryl you need to go racing, get one.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...t-drive-review

[Gary_T]

Most (all?) Ducatis are desmo valve train. 1199 Panigale R for example - ~$30k brand new for 195 HP.

Perhaps allowing different displacement for various cylinder configurations? Would allow some interesting new combos.