FV Runoffs 2015

[Hardingfv32]

I'll bet Mike V.'s strategy will be to try to break away solo and open a gap...

Highly unlikely... there is no one in front of him to pull up on and draft by. That is how the top times for everyone were accomplished. Yes he is faster than everyone else but even if they fall a little behind in the interior they group up and come barreling into the Bus Stop and get right back on Varicins tail and then draft by at start finish... two against one most likely. There are at least to well trained/teamed pairs at the front to make this strategy work.

Any ideas on how to counter this strategy?

Brian

[Jean-Sebastien Stoezel]

Follow whichever 2 car team is fastest until the last lap.

Any ideas on how to counter this strategy?

Brian

[Matt King]

History is filled with guys who have tried to win by leading out of the bus stop on the last lap. It works maybe one in 10 times. The classic winning move is the slingshot pass from 3-4 back coming out of Turn 4.

[Agitator]

Are you here, Brian? What would you "trim out"? Guys are hitting 7000rpm. Do you think they are going to go faster if they push it to 7100? Does your engine continue to make power beyond 6500? If so, then it is far superior to anyone's here. You know as well as anyone that you can't accelerate indefinitely, no matter how many guys are pushing each other.

Look at the data. If Varacins gets the lead and puts down the 1 to 1.5 second faster infield segment that he's been doing fairly regularly, you will lose the draft and never get it back, regardless of how many "friends" you have. It's one thing to put together a hot lap in qualifying, but unless you do it as consistently as MV, he is going to break the draft at some point and you'll need to outdrive him to get it back. The draft is not the magic equalizer many of us assumed here.

[veeracer98]

One long week is the tradition. It is more social than racing for the majority involved.

Think of the 4 Qual as just sessions. You want something for your money don't you?

Brian

So Brian, why are you not there? Well maybe you are just not competing?

[Matt King]

If Varacins gets the lead and puts down the 1 to 1.5 second faster infield segment that he's been doing fairly regularly, you will lose the draft and never get it back

Which is what happened at Road America a few years ago. It may be harder to repeat at Daytona, but it will be interesting to watch on Sunday either way.

[B Farnham]

It'll be interesting to see how everyone plays together. I'm sure some are set up for top speed and others for more power down the curve. Just like FF some can run fast laps on their own but trying to get away from guys running 2-5mph faster on the banking will be tough.

[BLS]

I'll make my prediction - no single car breakaway. Maybe a couple groups get out front with a gap to the rest. I just don't see a single car being able to withstand a group of 3 cars pushing and pulling...

I hope Stevan's car is not too bad. James, let us know how he is doing if you get a chance.

Barry

[Agitator]

Stevan has his original engine back in the car. I stopped by last night and he had just finished putting it in, but had stripped one of the carb bolts and was fixing it. The engine he had in yesterday was fresh, but he's proven that the one he reinstalled is pretty darn strong!

Isley's race is probably over. He threw a bearing yesterday. We attempted to put the head studs from that engine in his other engine (one of the heads had come loose twice on the original engine), but realized that we had bigger issues than that

[problemchild]

So Brian, why are you not there? Well maybe you are just not competing?

Clearly, with Mysterians, Protoforms, and a VDF filling most of the top positions, and no Vortechs in sight, the competition level is not up to his standards.

Still trying to figure out how these guys are suppsed to "trim out" their cars as Brian suggested. Smaller wings and undertray?

[Steve Bamford]

Highly unlikely... there is no one in front of him to pull up on and draft by. That is how the top times for everyone were accomplished. Yes he is faster than everyone else but even if they fall a little behind in the interior they group up and come barreling into the Bus Stop and get right back on Varicins tail and then draft by at start finish... two against one most likely. There are at least to well trained/teamed pairs at the front to make this strategy work.

Any ideas on how to counter this strategy?

Brian

As he catches the back markers this could easily happen as he uses their draft to separate and if timed right will slow others down behind him.

[Amon]

Steve,

If he catches the backmarkers, he may as you mentioned catch a draft but since he's lapping them, it's safe to assume they're not very fast and not much use to him as the time spent behind them would be minimal. But you never know??

Mark

[problemchild]

I watched the final Q and the front row definitely looked like the fastest two cars, doing one-lap runs from 8th to 1st in the fast pack.... several times. They seem to be fast in different places. Shields and the Whitsons are not far behind. Stating the obvious, look for the winner to come from those 5.

Just a stupid track for a National Championship event. Hoping for safe races for all classes. Looking forward to a next year at a proper race track.

[Matt King]

Anybody have an approximate body count on engines this week?

[Amon]

Matt:

Rumor has it:

Isley: Two
Shields: Two (?)
Davis: One (result of accident)
Weisheit: One
Edwards: One

I can't remember the others that I heard had problems, but the race will be interesting
to see who's engines go the distance.

[Daryl DeArman]

Guys are hitting 7000rpm. Do you think they are going to go faster if they push it to 7100?

uh....yes.

[Agitator]

We are putting a third in Isley's car right now...I don't even want to go into the details.

There's a lot going on. There have been MANY engine changes. Which of those were damaged, I don't know.

[Hardingfv32]

Guys are hitting 7000rpm. Do you think they are going to go faster if they push it to 7100? Does your engine continue to make power beyond 6500?

Look at the data. If Varacins gets the lead and puts down the 1 to 1.5 second faster infield segment that he's been doing fairly regularly... The draft is not the magic equalizer many of us assumed here.

1) The guy hitting 7000 rpm is using a short box and IF he uses it in the race is going nowhere. The short box is only an advantage in the interior which is only one third of the lap. Everyones power is falling after 6400 if not sooner.

2) Pulling out 1 sec in the infield might not be that easy in the race. There is a straight in the infield that allows you to draft and pull back lost ground. You have two drafting zones after the interior to recover any lost ground. One car might have a challenge but for a pair working together it will be no problem. Shields/Siebenaler did this successfully to beat Varacins at RA. They know what kind of cooperation required.

So each lap the infield advantage is negated. There is no opportunity to accumulate the gains made in the interior.

Brian

[Hardingfv32]

So Brian, why are you not there? Well maybe you are just not competing?

My new car is not finished. It was to be called the 'Daytona' but now I am thinking the 'Indy'. Should be able to test this winter. Work on it everyday. Even if I had saved the old car (which I never do) I would not have time for Daytona.

120 hours round trip of just in driving time and the 10 days at the track if you do test days. Then there is the expense which could be an easy $3-5000 even on a tight budget. No... I have neither the time or money at this point to be able to compete. If you can not compete why bother.

Brian

[Steve Bamford]

.

[lucky13]

Those of us who follow motorcycle racing and the Daytona 200 have watched this scenario play out for decades. Probably the only thing that you can say for sure is that the winner comes from the lead group out of the last chicane regardless of whether that group is two, three, or six bikes/cars. Once they hit the banking it is just courage and a crap shoot.

[Agitator]

My new car is not finished. It was to be called the 'Daytona' but now I am thinking the 'Indy'.

Perhaps you should call it the "Troll", since that seems to be what you do best.

[Amon]

We are putting a third in Isley's car right now...I don't even want to go into the details.

There's a lot going on. There have been MANY engine changes. Which of those were damaged, I don't know.

Agitator,

I know you'd prefer not to go into details but the rest of us who aren't so fortunate to be there would like to know the details as long as it doesn't bring one's reputation into question tooooo much?

Thanks!

Mark

[Matt King]

I think Brian should call his car The Phantom.

[Amon]

I think Brian should call his car The Phantom.

That's all folks!!(as they play the Benny Hill theme song in the background!)

[Hardingfv32]

Perhaps you should call it the "Troll", since that seems to be what you do best.

Educate me... So it is considered trolling to present a well stated and valid counter argument/opinion to yours?

Building cars is the main focus of my FV hobby. I do the best I can working on it everyday. Maybe you will get a chance to see it some day... and learn something new.

Brian

[Agitator]

Brian, You troll on this board constantly. You argue when there is nothing to argue about. You present your opinions in such an abrasive manner that most people don't even care what it is you're saying.

I've been around Vees my whole life, and still have plenty to learn. Our cars have won numerous pro races, over 100 Nationals, and the Runoffs. I'm not near as involved in the sport as I used to be, and neither is my dad, but we still have a car here and support it. In the meantime, you talk and talk and talk. You tick people off just to tick them off. You said last year that you weren't at the Runoffs because you were building a car for this year. Now you're building one for two years from now...yet you work on it every day. I don't think I have much to learn from that. Thanks for the offer though.

[Agitator]

Agitator,

I know you'd prefer not to go into details but the rest of us who aren't so fortunate to be there would like to know the details as long as it doesn't bring one's reputation into question tooooo much?

Thanks!

Mark

Mark,
It kind of does question reputation, but the fence is being mended. Meanwhile, we are fortunate to have a loaner Noble/Cox engine in the car right now, and will make the show. I don't want to sling mud because I'm not the driver, only the crew. I do know that some promises have been made to make things right, and that's important. Other than that, just looking forward to the race!

James

[Hardingfv32]

The F500 race was a 'classic' example of a car that was trimmed out. The winner never led going through turn 1. Sometimes out of the infield he was 5-8 car lengths back but pulled back up at the Bus Stop. Falling back as much as 10 car length he was able to pass by S/F.... but then gave way without challenge the car setup for the infield.

So how to trim out a FV:

Engine... A touch more cam retard. This would be on top of the already strong number you should have brought to Daytona. A exhaust system with more top end at the expense of low end. Something like a 3 step primary system (1.33 1.5 1.63 1.75). Maybe a jet change.

Chassis... Increase ride height and reduce camber. Increased tire pressure and a harder compound. You figure out how to make the tire harder.

Brian

[Matt King]

Or you can just know how to work the draft at Daytona.

[BLS]

James,

Thanks for the updates. Good luck tomorrow!

[problemchild]

The F500 race was a 'classic' example of a car that was trimmed out. The winner never led going through turn 1. Sometimes out of the infield he was 5-8 car lengths back but pulled back up at the Bus Stop. Falling back as much as 10 car length he was able to pass by S/F.... but then gave way without challenge the car setup for the infield.

So how to trim out a FV:

Engine... A touch more cam retard. This would be on top of the already strong number you should have brought to Daytona. A exhaust system with more top end at the expense of low end. Something like a 3 step primary system (1.33 1.5 1.63 1.75). Maybe a jet change.

Chassis... Increase ride height and reduce camber. Increased tire pressure and a harder compound. You figure out how to make the tire harder.

Brian

People that were actually there will tell you that the F500 race was between two very good drivers, one who had much more power (presumably drive tuning) and the other having much better braking, each to the advantage of several seconds per lap. There seemed to be little difference in actual handling. The "better brakes" driver had his best gap on the last lap but went off at the bus stop.

[Matt King]

Doesn't get much closer than that. Classic Daytona race!

[Matt Clark]

Is Guy Bellingham ok? He's the Pink & Blue BRD they showed nosed into the wall briefly, looked a bit odd.

[mikehinkle]

I wonder the same thing it didnt look like his helmet was moving for the few seconds they showed the car.

[LukeTesterman]

Great racing! I also didn't see any helmet movement and was worried about Guy...

[BLS]

My SCCA feed quit as the cars crossed the finish line on lap 13

Congrats to MV!

5 cars at the line within 0.152 seconds, first 3 separated by 0.066 seconds. There just isn't another racing class quite like it.

Saw the same thing with GB and hope he is OK.

Really sorry to see Stevan and Roger not in the mix.

[B Farnham]

Really hope Guy is alright, concerned when I didn't see any movement with his helmet.

Congrats to MV, was the fastest in the infield by far and planned out the last run to the flag perfectly.

If someone has an update on GB please let everyone know.

[Tom Valet]

I don't know for sure about drivers condition, but from where we watched it T1 the car did not impact the wall, that is it did not nose in.

[Matt Clark]

thanks, Tom.
that's good news at least. the broadcast just showed a quick shot looking down at it, couldnt tell exactly what was going on.