USF4 Test

[Lenny T.]

Any info on F4 test today at NJ ? How did car perform, Lap times, and who drove ?

[Michael Rand]

Any news at all about this phantom F4 "test" at NJMP ?

[DHelman]

Here

https://www.facebook.com/MomentumMot...Racing?fref=ts

[sal]

Saw Anders Krohn in car for a bit , not sure who else drove yesterday.
Car is cool but right now doing 1600 lap times.

[mikey]

why in the world would a new spec car not have anti-intrusion bars on the wishbones???

[Will Velkoff]

why in the world would a new spec car not have anti-intrusion bars on the wishbones???

It's a carbon tub car. I don't think you'll be stuffing those little a-arms through the tub.

[mikey]

I think you might be underestimating the spearing potential still. Pro Formula Mazda is carbon tub and they still went with anti-intrusion bars

[R. Pare]

CF isn't all that much of a hindrance to an a-arm being shoved through. It takes quite a few layers of kevlar and zylon to really reduce the ability to penetrate, and if the arm is strong enough, it will still go through. Witness what happened to Hinchcliff at Indy this year.

[Ben Beasley]

Ask Hinchcliffe what he thinks ???? That was one of the first things I noticed, seems pretty stupid, to tout all the safety and not spend another $10 on the a-arms.

[Neil_Roberts]

Let's not dwell on the fact that almost every anti-intrusion tube is much smaller and lighter than the wishbone tubes, or the fact that almost every one of them has an absurdly weak slip coupler joint in it. A perfectly designed and manufactured anti-intrusion bar can never do the job that it is intended to do.

Let's say that an inboard rod end, or the inboard end of a wishbone leg, fails instead of the wishbone leg buckling in the middle like it is supposed to. Very dangerous situation. Do you really expect an anti-intrusion tube of any specification to stop a wishbone leg from penetrating the tub or frame?

In that situation, the anti-intrusion tube is loaded in bending, while the mostly intact wishbone leg is loaded in compression. Try breaking a pencil by pushing on its ends. Now try breaking it in bending. Very much easier in bending, right? The same strength difference applies to wishbone tubes and anti-intrusion bars. The difference in load direction, and therefore the difference in strength, assures that the wishbone leg will easily overpower the anti-intrusion tube and continue inboard toward the driver.

There are a few easy ways to prevent broken wishbone penetration. First, design the bolted joint to be considerably stronger than the buckling strength of the wishbone. Second, size the rod end to be considerably stronger than the buckling strength of the wishbone. Third, design the region around the joint in a bucket shape that is vastly stronger than the wishbone. Those design details are all effective against wishbone intrusion, while anti-intrusion tubes cannot possibly be.

[DaveW]

why in the world would a new spec car not have anti-intrusion bars on the wishbones???

Let's not dwell on the fact that almost every anti-intrusion tube is much smaller and lighter than the wishbone tubes, or the fact that almost every one of them has an absurdly weak slip coupler joint in it. A perfectly designed and manufactured anti-intrusion bar can never do the job that it is intended to do.

Let's say that an inboard rod end, or the inboard end of a wishbone leg, fails instead of the wishbone leg buckling in the middle like it is supposed to. Very dangerous situation. Do you really expect an anti-intrusion tube of any specification to stop a wishbone leg from penetrating the tub or frame?

In that situation, the anti-intrusion tube is loaded in bending, while the mostly intact wishbone leg is loaded in compression. Try breaking a pencil by pushing on its ends. Now try breaking it in bending. Very much easier in bending, right? The same strength difference applies to wishbone tubes and anti-intrusion bars. The difference in load direction, and therefore the difference in strength, assures that the wishbone leg will easily overpower the anti-intrusion tube and continue inboard toward the driver.

There are a few easy ways to prevent broken wishbone penetration. First, design the bolted joint to be considerably stronger than the buckling strength of the wishbone. Second, size the rod end to be considerably stronger than the buckling strength of the wishbone. Third, design the region around the joint in a bucket shape that is vastly stronger than the wishbone. Those design details are all effective against wishbone intrusion, while anti-intrusion tubes cannot possibly be.

My opinion, exactly. The use of a 3/8" diameter 0.040 wall anti-intrusion tube meets the rules, but is WAY too weak to do any good. I know that from experience, and from crude engineering analysis. It is a cosmetic compliance with the rules.

[S Lathrop]

Neil's and Dave's remarks about anti-intrusion bars are correct but even as under sized as they may appear, they still provide a significant increase in safety over a-arms with out anti intrusion bars.

A very significant amount of energy is required to brake the anti intrusion bar and that is energy that is not available to drive the a-arm leg into the cockpit area. They also deflect the direction of travel of the a-arm leg and that is usually down the side of the car.

I have noticed that the a-arms with anti-intrusion bars are usually more deformed and much harder to repair than a-arms without anti intrusion bars. This tells me that more energy is absorbed in the a-arms itself in a crash and less is available to drive the a-arm leg some where it is not wanted.

Bottom line, is that anti-intrusion bars are a good thing, should be required and that the current rules provide a bare minimum requirement. Bigger would be better.

[EACIII]

OK, enough on the bar, I notice that when I first looked at the detail sheets. But any more info on how the car went?

[mikey]

OK, enough on the bar, I notice that when I first looked at the detail sheets. But any more info on how the car went?

The bar discussion is a convenient distraction to the original question, because at the end of the day, who cares how the car did for lap times? It's a spec class. And the environmental conditions on the day may not be at all conducive to comparing laps to other cars on different days.

More useful info would be what was the operating cost and how long will the motor and gearbox last?

The car looks good, so, there's that. It does not look fast, if you see things like aero drag.. It does look fast if you think it is an F1 car. Until it starts running, then you know..

[John Walko]

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Austr...073409?fref=nf

Check out the list of technical issues (so far) on the member owned cars:
- Gearboxes have a neutral switch on the steering wheel that rarely works, very dangerous for recoveries with cars in gear.
- Trackside recovery workers specifically told not to pull isolator cable because it fires off the extinguisher at the same time.
- Paddle shift is so touchy drivers accidently upshifting over bumps.
- Air compressors required to pressure the air shifter are working overtime and changing gears is a hit or miss situation.
- Wiring loom is a nasty road car thing that is being squashed by the carbon FIA safety seat, most of these are fretting already.
- Multiple cars have had split fuel lines due to cheap hose.
- Cars had a lack of spigot bearing therefore the input shaft was flopping around, wearing out clutches.
- Uprights are incredibly fragile.
- Fuel pump issues due to the way the pumps are located in the tanks, requiring huge fuel loads, all the time.
- Longevity of road car rotors and pads has been questioned.
- Limp mode is engaged commonly due to fuel pressure issues from the pump, ending sessions for drivers.
- Engines vary 10hp, a huge number given the overall power.
- Front Bulkhead on tub is flexing under brakes, drivers then report a soft pedal.
- One tub had a delamination from normal use and had to be replaced due to lack of construction quality control.
- FIA Safety seat inserts have been bolted into the tub due to them sliding around, which defeats the purpose.
All submissions came to us via inbox, if you have others let us and others know. Don't believe the constant hype of this category, it is an unsustainable waste of members money!

[Kazis31]

Are Australian F4 same chassis manufacturer?
What engines are they running in their cars?
There are currently 3 chassis manufacturers and
4 different engine packages available.
Not sure about data ,but those might be different from
each other as well.
Also every new class coming in has issues to work out and develop
jumping on negative band wagon i think is bit too early.
If i remember correctly when Fit motor came out very similar responses
came out and now almost every competitive formula f driver has one in the car.
Let the U.S customers decide for themselves what is what.
I personally think it is in sane to pay 100k for tubular frame chassis formula car
covered by mediocre quality fiberglass pieces,running dated motor and still having
manual gear shifting.(gearbox is very good dough)

P.s.
Let the punches fly.

[HazelNut]

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Austr...073409?fref=nf

Check out the list of technical issues (so far) on the member owned cars:
- Gearboxes have a neutral switch on the steering wheel that rarely works, very dangerous for recoveries with cars in gear.
- Trackside recovery workers specifically told not to pull isolator cable because it fires off the extinguisher at the same time.
- Paddle shift is so touchy drivers accidently upshifting over bumps.
- Air compressors required to pressure the air shifter are working overtime and changing gears is a hit or miss situation.
- Wiring loom is a nasty road car thing that is being squashed by the carbon FIA safety seat, most of these are fretting already.
- Multiple cars have had split fuel lines due to cheap hose.
- Cars had a lack of spigot bearing therefore the input shaft was flopping around, wearing out clutches.
- Uprights are incredibly fragile.
- Fuel pump issues due to the way the pumps are located in the tanks, requiring huge fuel loads, all the time.
- Longevity of road car rotors and pads has been questioned.
- Limp mode is engaged commonly due to fuel pressure issues from the pump, ending sessions for drivers.
- Engines vary 10hp, a huge number given the overall power.
- Front Bulkhead on tub is flexing under brakes, drivers then report a soft pedal.
- One tub had a delamination from normal use and had to be replaced due to lack of construction quality control.
- FIA Safety seat inserts have been bolted into the tub due to them sliding around, which defeats the purpose.
All submissions came to us via inbox, if you have others let us and others know. Don't believe the constant hype of this category, it is an unsustainable waste of members money!

That's a big damn list of issues.

[R. Pare]

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Austr...073409?fref=nf

Check out the list of technical issues (so far) on the member owned cars:
- Gearboxes have a neutral switch on the steering wheel that rarely works, very dangerous for recoveries with cars in gear.
- Trackside recovery workers specifically told not to pull isolator cable because it fires off the extinguisher at the same time.
- Paddle shift is so touchy drivers accidently upshifting over bumps.
- Air compressors required to pressure the air shifter are working overtime and changing gears is a hit or miss situation.
- Wiring loom is a nasty road car thing that is being squashed by the carbon FIA safety seat, most of these are fretting already.
- Multiple cars have had split fuel lines due to cheap hose.
- Cars had a lack of spigot bearing therefore the input shaft was flopping around, wearing out clutches.
- Uprights are incredibly fragile.
- Fuel pump issues due to the way the pumps are located in the tanks, requiring huge fuel loads, all the time.
- Longevity of road car rotors and pads has been questioned.
- Limp mode is engaged commonly due to fuel pressure issues from the pump, ending sessions for drivers.
- Engines vary 10hp, a huge number given the overall power.
- Front Bulkhead on tub is flexing under brakes, drivers then report a soft pedal.
- One tub had a delamination from normal use and had to be replaced due to lack of construction quality control.
- FIA Safety seat inserts have been bolted into the tub due to them sliding around, which defeats the purpose.
All submissions came to us via inbox, if you have others let us and others know. Don't believe the constant hype of this category, it is an unsustainable waste of members money!

You sure that they didn't sneak in a few of the original Swift 008's?

Quality control?? We don't need no damned quality control!

[Wren]

Are Australian F4 same chassis manufacturer?
What engines are they running in their cars?
There are currently 3 chassis manufacturers and
4 different engine packages available.

Australia appears to be running a Mygale with a 1.6L Ford ecoboost.

[ghickman]

Yikes, read all those facebook posts. Some very unhappy people.

I would expect a new car to have some development issues but for that kind of money I'd expect it to be further along.

That's a lot of dough to spend and only go a 1 sec quicker than a FF.

Not a big Mygale fan personally. I find the French designs to be a bit odd. I've had to reverse engineer a bunch of their parts this is where I came up with my conclusion.

I still think FB (F1000) is the most bang for your buck.

[Chris Livengood]

To be fair, the Australian Open Wheel Insider seems to be an account created in April and features almost totally information that sheds a negative light on Australian F4. That doesn't mean that all the information is bad, but it would seem that they have questionable motivations.

[Chris Livengood]

It looks as though the Australian series has around 12 or 13 entries per race. They run three races a weekend, and over the nine completed races this year they have had 8 DNF's. One of those races had four DNF's while the rest were just one car per race. 6 of the 8 DNF's happened on the first three race weekend.

[provamo]

It's a carbon tub car. I don't think you'll be stuffing those little a-arms through the tub.

been said before.....ask Hinchcliffe

[Dennis McCarthy]

Sacre bleu, you Americans would not be happy if you were guillotined with a new blade....

That's a big damn list of issues.

[Brian.Novak]

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Austr...073409?fref=nf

Check out the list of technical issues (so far) on the member owned cars:
- Gearboxes have a neutral switch on the steering wheel that rarely works, very dangerous for recoveries with cars in gear.
- Trackside recovery workers specifically told not to pull isolator cable because it fires off the extinguisher at the same time.
- Paddle shift is so touchy drivers accidently upshifting over bumps.
- Air compressors required to pressure the air shifter are working overtime and changing gears is a hit or miss situation.
- Wiring loom is a nasty road car thing that is being squashed by the carbon FIA safety seat, most of these are fretting already.
- Multiple cars have had split fuel lines due to cheap hose.
- Cars had a lack of spigot bearing therefore the input shaft was flopping around, wearing out clutches.
- Uprights are incredibly fragile.
- Fuel pump issues due to the way the pumps are located in the tanks, requiring huge fuel loads, all the time.
- Longevity of road car rotors and pads has been questioned.
- Limp mode is engaged commonly due to fuel pressure issues from the pump, ending sessions for drivers.
- Engines vary 10hp, a huge number given the overall power.
- Front Bulkhead on tub is flexing under brakes, drivers then report a soft pedal.
- One tub had a delamination from normal use and had to be replaced due to lack of construction quality control.
- FIA Safety seat inserts have been bolted into the tub due to them sliding around, which defeats the purpose.
All submissions came to us via inbox, if you have others let us and others know. Don't believe the constant hype of this category, it is an unsustainable waste of members money!

Sounds like some of these are pretty easy fixes... Oh wait, SPEC CLASS!!

[Spengo]

That's a very disappointing list. Lets hope Mygale has worked out the issues discovered in Australia. It would be a real shame if a promising new series died before it even got started just because the cars were hooptys.

[Chris Livengood]

That's a very disappointing list. Lets hope Mygale has worked out the issues discovered in Australia. It would be a real shame if a promising new series died before it even got started just because the cars were hooptys.

The cars have only run for three weekends, and they seem to have a pretty good finishing rate. The facebook profile also appears at least somewhat defamatory in nature. While the information may be good, the source is certainly questionable. Further validation is certainly required.

[NPalacioM3]

The cars have only run for three weekends, and they seem to have a pretty good finishing rate. The facebook profile also appears at least somewhat defamatory in nature. While the information may be good, the source is certainly questionable. Further validation is certainly required.

The bigger takeaway I got from looking at that series was what you pointed out before, the entry numbers. If they cannot generate big car fields in Australia, how is the US? Only series I really see thriving is the German. UK is getting about 20 or so, no different from what we are getting in F2000 or F1600..... and noting what Mr Larue pointed out earlier, this class needs to bring in new butts, not shuffle them. If we just move 10-15 people from 1600 or 2000 to these, we just make matters worse.

[Spengo]

The cars have only run for three weekends, and they seem to have a pretty good finishing rate. The facebook profile also appears at least somewhat defamatory in nature. While the information may be good, the source is certainly questionable. Further validation is certainly required.

Ah I see, I did not look at the rest of the posts made by the profile. Lots of drama in racing as usual.

[mousecatcher]

- Trackside recovery workers specifically told not to pull isolator cable because it fires off the extinguisher at the same time.

What is an isolator cable?

- Uprights are incredibly fragile.

Odd. I thought they were street car parts and therefore extra robust (and heavy).

To be fair, many of the problems sound like teething issues. But yeah, some of them sound like design failures and with the cost controls in the class, perhaps unfixable. (At least for the Mygale car.)

[Dennis Valet]

Looks like SCCA Pro is the only pony in this race...

F4 Update
Sept. 16 2015

Al and I wanted to let everyone in the paddock as well as our friends and other participants know what we are doing and what transpired over the last three or so weeks. There are a lot of rumors going around; some close to accurate, some laughingly false. Hopefully this will give some clarification. Note there are some things we cannot detail as we are under a non-disclosure agreement with SCCA Pro racing. From the moment we announced our intention to start and operate a F4 series in the US, we received a huge amount of positive response and interest. However we also have come under heavy pressure from multiple sources not to proceed. This has been disruptive for the series, and we suspect difficult for you as teams and participants to deal with. For this we apologize to all of you. The result of weeks of discussion and negotiation is as follows:

We have an agreement with the FIA and SCCA Pro Racing to abandon USF4, and USF4 Championship Series; the logos, the domain names and anything to do with the name F4. While we were advised we had a good case to retain them, at the end of the day it would be too costly and frankly not worth it. SCCA will announce their FIA F4 series this Thursday, and we will move on. We will remain sanctioned by SCCA Pro Racing. We will not be running a F4 series.

We will, however, have a Mygale car (to be named) running with our Atlantic run group which will have something close to 240 hp and should be considerably faster than a F2000. Testing this fall will hopefully prove out that expectation. Take a look at http://www.formula4.com/ and their 2016 car for some comparisons.

We have a tentative schedule for six race weekends mirroring 2015 and are looking for the seventh (Pitt is re-paving next Sept so a return there is out) with at least a possibility of returning to WGI in early October for the seventh as we have done in the past. This schedule is pretty well locked, with maybe a race moved a weekend one way or the other. We will again be with NARRA, and we are talking with Trans Am for two or more events as well as some additional support races on different weekends. We should note that Trans Am would potentially come to our events, not the other way around, which is a comment on how good our schedule is. We have been in contact with the promoter for the Palm Beach event next February, and are planning to return in 2016 with a non-points race.

We are not abandoning F1600, F2000, or Atlantic. On the contrary, we are instituting things to make them stronger and more appealing. Look for announcements in the coming weeks to that end. Feedback from our teams indicates strong interest in both F2000 and F1600 for 2016. Look also for our annual questionnaire in the next couple of weeks; there will be some important questions on it that will help shape the 2016 season and we value your input.

It is our intention to concentrate on what has made our series so successful over the last ten years; great tracks, lots of track time and a series operated by racers for racers. We welcome your feedback; our phones are always on and we will answer questions.

[mousecatcher]

Wow.

8/18/15: 14 cars sold.

I guess those are sold but not delivered. Sounds like these could be updated to the 240HP config. But that's a completely different proposition than "F4".

On the one hand why not just go with PFM as the atlantic-almost class. OTOH the 14 folks would be pissed.

Unbelievable and sad that they got strong-armed into turning back from usf4. At least the letter makes it sound that way, as opposed to being some kind of voluntary choice for the good of larger ecosystem.

Does this also suggest that SCCA will be going with Mygale?

[Monty M]

The SCCA will announce a Crawford/Honda tomorrow at a press conference at COTA.

The media invite says SCCA Pro, Honda and Crawford reps will all be there. Can't imagine its anything else.

[mikey]

Hmmm.. and Crawford does the PFM tubs these days originally built by Elan. Maybe they'll keep most of PFM and just re-power it?

HPD did some test fits previously, a deal gone south for a guy who paid Primus a bunch of money IIRC

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWQDQTZ4QF0

[RSS]

What F4 series? I have no idea what you are talking about.

[2BWise]

The SCCA will announce a Crawford/Honda tomorrow at a press conference at COTA.

The media invite says SCCA Pro, Honda and Crawford reps will all be there. Can't imagine its anything else.

You mean a Formula Lites repackaged!? I had some doubts about an FRP F4 series but figured if it could be made to work they could figure out how to do it. The SCCA? I'm sad to say I think its a flop before it even gets off the ground. Purely based on the recent success of the Formula Lites program I bet this is the same chassis repackaged with a new engine and not FIA equivalent to the standard of F4.

[Wren]

You mean a Formula Lites repackaged!? I had some doubts about an FRP F4 series but figured if it could be made to work they could figure out how to do it. The SCCA? I'm sad to say I think its a flop before it even gets off the ground. Purely based on the recent success of the Formula Lites program I bet this is the same chassis repackaged with a new engine and not FIA equivalent to the standard of F4.

I think that is exactly what they have planned. Formula lites with some updates and a Honda motor. I think there is already a Honda in there.

It is supposed to be FIA sanctioned, which means cost controls. So, somehow the car is going to go from over $100k to $60k with a manufacturer that has only turned out cars in low volumes afaik.

SCCA pro is involved, and those guys are actually pretty competent, but I know that Lisa is involved too, so there is a staggering level of incompetence there. They are really late to the game to get people in seats for next year, but if Honda wants their own road to Indy badly enough then they will subsidize it.

I wonder if the SCCA threatened to cancel FRP's sanction to strong arm them?

I hope those deposits were refundable.

[stonebridge20]

I just heard a big explosion. The sound came from the northern part of Connecticut.

I think it may have been Rand's head !

[Spengo]

Hahaha oh wow, when I said "lots of drama in racing as usual" I really had no idea.

[Purple Frog]

Page 6 of the October 2015 issue of Sportscar.

Now, how to they reduce the price from $120,900 stated in that issue, down to the FIA F4 baseline costs? Interesting...