At that price I would be interested in club racing the car if it fit somewhere. But they lost me with the motor rental and sealed motor. It's even a detuned K20. It doesn't need to be replaced yearly.
At that price I would be interested in club racing the car if it fit somewhere. But they lost me with the motor rental and sealed motor. It's even a detuned K20. It doesn't need to be replaced yearly.
Crossle 32F, Piper DF5 Honda
Originally Posted by NPalacioM3
Yes, but does that mean at the same race track that "same" weekend?
Realistically it does mean same weekend yes. I see the smiley face but trying to keep the discussion real.Yes, but does that mean at the same race track that "same" weekend?
I have never looked at Perelli Series so do not who they usually run with for support races but makes sense from a tire manufacture advertising point of view. I see this though as a split from open wheel prep teams so means likely a different target sale compared to the existing open wheel prep shops.
I still don't understand the 23 k per weekend price tag? Keep in mind that is quoted by the series organizer and in my experience always ends up higher. My reason for not understanding the price is if a non spec 90 k F1600 is 10 - 18 k to run per weekend why is a less expensive spec car 5 - 13 k more per event?
I was very enthusiastic about F4 when it was first announced and others had cautioned my enthusiasm which I did not understand at the time....now I sure do understand.
I wish F4 in the scca all the best and hope it is extremely successful in the future. Time will tell how everything shakes out.
Steve Bamford
How in the HELL did we get to the point where someone can say without excruciating pain that even shows in the text that a weekend of F1600 should cost ten thousand to eighteen thousand DOLLARS?
To me, that's just insane.
(Sorry for interjecting. Please carry on)
WOW!! That's serious money folks.
I'm sooooo outta touch with the current costs.
Stephen Adams
RF92 Van Diemen FFord
1980 Lola T540 FFord
You cannot confuse the cost of professional "arrive n drive" service with the cost of racing a FF race car. To run the FRP Series, you have spent $2500 on entry fee and tires, before you change a brake pad, replace a $325 gear, put gas in your rig, pay for a hotel room, or hire a qualified wrench. That there are business that provide such service, really has nothing to do with the average racer. I can pay $18K to get my bathroom professionally renovated, but that does not mean that I cannot find another contractor to do a good job for $10K, or do it myself for $4K. If I get my buddy to help for free beer, and skimp on materials, then I do it for half that. How is that any different?
The whole F4 concept is flawed, in that the initial purchase price of the car is not the expensive part and the expensive part is not going to change as long as you are marketing and operating a Pro Series.
Greg Rice, RICERACEPREP.com
F1600 Arrive-N-Drive for FRP and SCCA, FC SCCA also. Including Runoffs
2020 & 2022 F1600 Champion, 2020 SCCA FF Champion, 2021 SCCA FC Champion,
2016 F2000 Champion, Follow RiceRacePrep on Instagram.
For club racing I'm sure you could just buy a motor.
Awww, come on guys, it's so simple. Maybe you need a refresher course. Hey! It's all ball bearings nowadays.
I know a guy that just purchased a Formula Lites from Crawford last month. Now you can buy basically the same car for less than half the 120k it takes to buy the Lites car? I wonder how this will affect the New Lites Series?
Kevin Davis
04 Pro Mazda
95 Lamborghini Diablo
59 Piper Comanche
the lite series is probably going to die. they have only 4 entries to their last race.
I agree with what you are saying however the expenses for the F4 are supposed to be substantially less to operate then non spec costs of the F1600/F2000. An example of this is in F4 you will not be changing gears so the $325.00 expense should be eliminated unless you break them. Most parts are supposedly a quarter of the price of the F1600/F2000 prices.
Labor, transportation, hotels, etc will still remain the same as they currently are to run a prep shop so I do not expect those costs to be taken out.
So how do you end up costing more per weekend? If someone is spending 18k for F1600, which must be the top end, then how does it cost more for F4?
Steve Bamford
158HP? Really? Is that supposed to attract young Karters?
158 HP? With a dry weight of 1150lbs (if basically a de-tuned F. Lites car).
Not much of a performer.
Perhaps that estimated 2016 season cost is meant to include buying the car.
Nope.
Steve Bamford
So what is Mygale doing with the 15 deposits?
Can't see them being to happy with the FIA for siding with SCCA/Crawford if they are giving the money back.
Mygale North America has offered to refund all deposits as currently the direction has changed on what FRP has to offer. Most knew when giving deposits that it was likely SCCA was going with a different chassis/engine package already.
I believe Mygale North America did the professional thing by offering clients refunds at this time. This is not because SCCA went with Crawford/Honda as that was already expected.
Steve Bamford
Yes, it seems that FRP may have announced before everything was entirely in place and it bit them.
There is absolutely a reasonable section of the SCCA leadership that will openly talk about how they want the SCCA to be more like it was back in the day when it really was a step on the ladder to professional racing. You can usually identify these people by their grey hair, general cluelessness, and they seem to often talk about spectators(that's how you know they have no idea what they are talking about). This segment has somehow managed to get one of their own CEO of the SCCA without any prior leadership experience. They are obviously involved in deciding that the SCCA will run this series.
Now they have decided that the SCCA needs to be back in the business of underwriting race series instead of providing services. Yes, they have sponsor money, but that will go away if it ends up with Formula Lites sized fields.
PWC seems to spend more time running as a support series instead of having support series run with them. They have run support for some really great weekends (Indycar and Xfinity), but is there really going to be time in those weekends for another series? They are promising 3 hours of track time per weekend. I doubt that Indycar is going to let a competing product into their weekends either.
Running with PWC is going to offer them cost savings on staffing I guess.
More likely that number is just an overly optimistic, made up number. It is going to vary wildly with how much someone wants to test and crash damage.I still don't understand the 23 k per weekend price tag? Keep in mind that is quoted by the series organizer and in my experience always ends up higher. My reason for not understanding the price is if a non spec 90 k F1600 is 10 - 18 k to run per weekend why is a less expensive spec car 5 - 13 k more per event?
People's labor costs money. You can run these weekends from an open trailer with your buddies working for beer. You are just a lot less likely to finish well.
I understand that car is just a Formula Lites with an F4 wing package on it, but that car looks impossible to get on the track for $45k as a roller. There are a lot of bespoke parts on it. You don't get very many parts that cost over $1k for that price. Does it really need a carbon steering wheel made at US labor prices? The corner looks like a bespoke part. It is going to be hard to sell a complete corner for that car for what Mygale was going to sell a corner for. If they are going to go to the COTS stuff, then I hope they have made good progress on integration and supply chain. It's already September. PWC started running in March this year.
Here is the SCCA's single page website:
http://www.f4uschampionship.com/
There is some more info there about payouts, inverted grids for race 2, track time, and some other nonsense. It's interesting that they use words like "viewership." I wonder what their projected car count is? Also, the cost of a season has gone down $15k since yesterday. It's now $100k.
So we are down to $20k per weekend from $23k. Hopefully in a few weeks it will be down to $10 - $15 k where it should & could be if run by others.
Steve Bamford
the whole deal is hilarious except for the fact that there is now a pathway for Joseff Newgarten to get into F1 lol
In 2018, the championship is going to pay out 100 grand to the winner, so there's your annual operating budget right there. Winner races for free!
Matt King
FV19 Citation XTC-41
CenDiv-Milwaukee
KEEP THE KINK!
Steve (and others), you might find this informative
http://www.racer.com/pwc/pirelli-wor...orld-challenge
That simply means the racer fees increase to cover off the payout.In 2018, the championship is going to pay out 100 grand to the winner, so there's your annual operating budget right there. Winner races for free!
Steve Bamford
deleted by author
Last edited by gfastr; 09.18.15 at 1:38 PM. Reason: deleted
And if you are as smart as Dave W., you can run the whole season for under $30k!
Who needs a shiny new F350 or Toterhome when a well-maintained C30 van will run forever?And if you are as smart as Dave W., you can run the whole season for under $30k!
"I love the smell of race fuel in the morning. It smells like victory!"
Barry Wilcock
Pit Crew: Tumenas Motorsports/Houndspeed, Fat Boy Racing
And to further quell some of the tensions in here.........
http://www.globalevents1000.com/usf4.html
Kinda figured this wasn't far behind.
Sure didn't waste any time did he?
Steve Bamford
It could reflect the higher entry fees vs FRP and higher tire costs. PWC GTS average entry fee for 2015 is $3600, that's with a full season discount. GTS is tier-2 for PWC and I could see F4 falling into a similar bucket.
I've no doubt the Pirelli tires will be expensive.
How do you know it's basically the same car? Tub, I'm sure, but otherwise we don't yet know what the components are. I agree that it seems incredible to cut the price tag by half, therefore I assume all the bespoke Lites components (like custom steering wheel) are not part of the F4 package -- regardless of the show car used for the press release.
Clearly. So the between the lines implication is that PWC and TransAm will break out into their own series, with a slow transition (5 weekends, increasing to 8 weekends over 3 years).
UGH... inverted grids for race 2 ...
Ha, and for $500 less than SCCA's estimated price!! That, and the guaranteed buyback, make this the deal of the century!!!
All these budget numbers being thrown around are laughable.
Lets say you own a truck and trailer, are a sound mechanic who preps his own car currently and have a few buddies that can help you at the track. So your costs are-
$2k for tires. That's at $250 per tire which is what I heard they run and 2 sets a weekend
$400 race fuel
$100 misc fluids per weekend
$2k race entry- just a guess, could be less, could be more
$1k misc nonsense that always pops up
Hotel - these aren't included in any raceteams driver budget that I know of, but lets say as a privateer you can do it for $600 a weekend with 2 rooms x 3 nights.
Towing fuel- varies obviously
Prep items for car- this is a new car right, the amount of new items used during the year is next to nothing for a 5 race series (not counting testing between races if you decide to) Maybe a rod end here or there, or some pads, but that is about it.
These numbers are based on what I am guessing things will cost, not exact numbers.
So if you want to go and pay a team 10, 20 or $30k a weekend, go right ahead. But you don't have to if you have the wherewithal to do it yourself.
So did Crawford copy a 2007 Lola or did FIA base F4 on the same?
http://www.race-cars.com/carsales/lo...38350126ss.htm
------------------
'Stay Hungry'
JK 1964-1996 #25
Your not comparing apples to apples. You say if you own your truck and trailer...I have 60-80 grand in my truck and trailer and they were bought used. I have insurance and maintenance to pay on these vehicles and deprecation which is a real expense. Over 5 races the deprecation is $3200.00 per race before I add in devaluation based on mileage. There are prep shop overhead to cover, tools and spares to finance, so many other things. Canopies are 10 k or more alone new. Your tire numbers are low as it says 6 tires per race weekend that is $1500.00 before testing so basically double that to 3 grand.
If you don't want to add the actual costs up then you can use your number but there are other costs to consider. Also we are talking about full arrive and drive programs, no wrenching at or away from the track so keep that in mind and this isn't based on having your buddies show up to lend a helping hand. I haven't seen anyone in the Pro Series win without paid help since I have been there. Maybe they weren't paying the high numbers quoted but they were much more then the numbers you listed.
The reason I am saying the F4 numbers are too high is the current programs for F1600 and F2000 are non spec and there is also development costs at and away the track, more so away. They need to be covered some how and would be added into the weekend cost of an arrive and drive program. I realize there will be some development in F4, it will simply be much more limited then what the non spec series are.
Steve Bamford
Steve, you miss my point. Just because prep shops are charging X amount to run, it doesn't mean you have to spend that much as an independent.
My tent cost 30k and my truck and trailer was close to 200k, but unfortunately we don't race the tents or rigs, so those things don't make my guys any faster. It makes me charge more tho.
Problem is, in my opinion, kids these days think you need all that to be competitive. That wasn't the case back in the prime days of FF/FC, and I believe that is one part of the participation problem we have.Steve, you miss my point. Just because prep shops are charging X amount to run, it doesn't mean you have to spend that much as an independent.
My tent cost 30k and my truck and trailer was close to 200k, but unfortunately we don't race the tents or rigs, so those things don't make my guys any faster. It makes me charge more tho.
-Nick
I hear what you are saying but you still need to also factor in other costs and I even forgot the cost of the car in my calculation. When people run themselves they don't calculate all the real costs associated with racing. You can do a lot of the work yourself, if you are capable which I am not, to save money but you should still also put a price on your time even if it is what you love. There is one thing you can't buy in life...TIME.Steve, you miss my point. Just because prep shops are charging X amount to run, it doesn't mean you have to spend that much as an independent.
My tent cost 30k and my truck and trailer was close to 200k, but unfortunately we don't race the tents or rigs, so those things don't make my guys any faster. It makes me charge more tho.
Steve Bamford
Nick,
Can you actually win without having a great team behind you? Tim is probably the lowest cost champion in the Pro Series but that wasn't cheap either. Look at all the development he did over the last three years and the costs involved with that also the team he had.
I am not saying you need a 200 k rig, but if you run 3 or more cars for arrive as drive you will need something close to that. Otherwise it simply means more vehicles and actually costs more money.
Prove me wrong please as I do wish I could make racing cheaper.
Steve Bamford
Just a tad above a top shelf FC car. For a whole lot more money.
We don't need another Formula class.
THEY need another class
WE need another organization
Shoos.. don't let the SCCA know or they'll create another class...
I do think my pickup and open trailer would be pretty fast...
Give SCCA Pro has announced a new series and a new car, has an actual Crawford F4 actually been built and tested in the real world?
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