Thinking of buying a Formula car.

[FrankRizzo]

OK, tell me the expectations that you have for "someone like me". 1st off, I'm not going to be RACING any of you guys for a while, if EVER. I'll be doing track days, and test and tune events. (I would understand if you guys didn't want to be out going wheel to wheel with the newbie who just bought the car, and showed up at the track).

A note about me, my style isn't to get in a new car, and decide that I'm going to go break the track record in the 1st session. I expect to be SLOW, until I see how the car reacts.

See evidence HERE.

I had free run, track to myself, and I STILL took it WAAAYYY easier than one would expect.

I have a race school under my belt:

So, tell me. What are your concerns? (Other than the fact that I might threadjack).

[NPalacioM3]

There aren't many hpde or track days which allow open wheel cars, and for good reason. Open wheel cars and sedans on track at the same time is very dangerous. Private test with 5-7 cars? Sure. But the standard hpde or track day? Nope.

[DanW]

Nick is right. Few HDPE groups allow open wheel. Even sports racers sit so low, the drivers in road cars have a hard time seeing them come up alongside. A driver in a open wheel car is very vulnerable. The other guys just don't expect you in their mirrors.

Have you considered SoloI or SoloII? Low cost and lots of fun. The marque clubs often allow open wheel and you may get lots of runs.

If you have your heart set on open track events, have you considered vintage open wheel? Most are non-competitive events, treaded avons tires or similar. A vintage Club Ford or Pre '73 formula ford can be enjoyed for a reasonable cost. If you take good care of it, maintain the appearance you may sell it for as much as you paid for it when you decide to move on.

Good luck.

[Pop Chevy]

My local track does. (PITT) Sometimes I am all alone out there ! I am however a frequent customer and now they all know me and trust me not to hold up the show.

[marchsv]

There is a vintage race Labor Day weekend at Portland, come on out take a look talk to some of the other drivers. I can add you to my crew list if you want to come.

Tom

[Kazis31]

Just go for it.
And don't think that this disease is not
contagious and terminal..

[FrankRizzo]

In the event that you guys just watched my 1 linked video, I've had the addiction for a while. I ran a Miata for a while, got tired of being a rolling chicane, so I upgraded to an Ariel Atom. I drove it pretty much EVERY opportunity for 2 years straight. I've had some time off, changes in life situation made selling the Atom a requirement. That's all done, and straightened out now. I'm itching to get back on the track.

I run with a group of guys, we've all been on the track for a long time together. We all started out in street cars, and worked our way up. One of my buds just sold his C6 Z06, and upgraded to a Palatov D1.



One of the others did a school with SRFs, then ran his M3 for a while, and now has an Atom, and one of the others now has a 2013 GTR.

(And, for the record, my D1 having bud still runs all the HPDEs that we ran when he had the Z06, and I had the Atom.)

I don't want to return to rolling chicane status.

Also, add to the mix that I'm a BIG guy. 6'3, 275, built like a linebacker. I sat in an FV once, thought I was going to need the jaws of life to get me out.

[Kazis31]

Get Pro Mazda .
Roomiest car i know.

[rickb99]

LOL, I had to open that picture in a new page and blow it up to figure out what was going on with the Palatoy! Looked like you were sitting on the left side and the roll bar was on the right mounted to the dash board. Thought we were looking at the back of the car... LOLOL how silly of me.

Considering you're in Oregon, hope I get to see that car some time. Looks pretty nifty.

[mousecatcher]

How much of a mechanic and race engineer are you?

Are you ok with a car that you have to spend more time working on it than driving it? Or will you have a crew.

Pro Mazda is probably too fast for you if you haven't spent much time in an open wheel car before, and it requires quite a lot of care and feeding.

I'm thinking the Atom is perfect. Why not buy another? With the recent TX problem there may be a few on the market, cheap.

[FrankRizzo]

How much of a mechanic and race engineer are you?

Are you ok with a car that you have to spend more time working on it than driving it? Or will you have a crew.

Pro Mazda is probably too fast for you if you haven't spent much time in an open wheel car before, and it requires quite a lot of care and feeding.

I'm thinking the Atom is perfect. Why not buy another? With the recent TX problem there may be a few on the market, cheap.

I believe a race-prep shop is probably in order for keeping the car in tip-top shape. There are some things that I can do. (Replacing things). There are things that I CAN'T do, like fabbing parts, or just "This doesn't work the way it was intended, we need to modify it."

Pro Mazda is also too expensive for me.

The Atom was a lot of fun. I bought it when I didn't have time, nor space for a formula car. I *WANTED* a formula car, and even bought one on eBay. (The seller ultimately called me, and stated that he had someone wanting to buy all his cars, and all his spares as a package, and asked if I would reconsider. I did.)

So, here we are again. Back to the "I want a formula car" discussion. I want wings!

[BeerBudgetRacing]

My shoulders are quite wide too. Not as tall and heavy (230, 6-0), but fit is an issue.

FM or FE cars are wider than most...
If you have running back legs like I do, the front hoop will be an issue on older cars.

I'd go to one of the races and try a few on.

Maybe I missed your budget but there is a bargain on an FE in Co for something like $20k
That might be a great car for you....

[NPalacioM3]

Thread is so confusing.....

[Keith Carter]

If you don't plan on racing competitively, I would probably suggest getting a Formula Mazda (non-pro). They are tanks, relatively inexpensive to get, roomy, and would be a great track car. In fact, out by me at Autobahn they have a series of old FMs that members race in. If you plan on racing wheel to wheel someday, go with an FE.

[Spengo]

I recommend just getting in the races. There is no faster way to learn and get up to speed. It's ok to start out as a backmarker. Just drive at your own pace, hold your line, and don't do unexpected things like try to get out of the way. The fast guys will find their way around no problem. If you choose a big enough class you may even find another new guy to battle with!

[FrankRizzo]

I recommend just getting in the races. There is no faster way to learn and get up to speed. It's ok to start out as a backmarker. Just drive at your own pace, hold your line, and don't do unexpected things like try to get out of the way. The fast guys will find their way around no problem. If you choose a big enough class you may even find another new guy to battle with!

Hey Spengo, you're just across the river from me. What do YOU race? (And when, and where?)


Now, on the other topics.

I'm in Oregon, and from what I can tell there are NO FE racers up here. (Checked the last couple of SCCA races at PIR, and saw nothing). That's one of the reasons I figured I would just grab a car that made me happy, and continue running track days like I had been.

The guy (mentioned above) that has the D1 has been a lifelong rotary fan. He's been mentioning that I should consider an FM, and since I won't be racing it, I could enhance it. "Bridge port", maybe a turbo. Things that wouldn't fly if I were trying to RACE it, but that would be fine for HPDE duty.

[mousecatcher]

Yeah I suggest FM as well. zero FE's in PNW, zero in socal. Norcal is down to 1 car that makes it to the track with any regularity.

[DaveW]

... I could enhance it. "Bridge port", maybe a turbo. Things that wouldn't fly if I were trying to RACE it, but that would be fine for HPDE duty.

You sound fairly knowledgeable about the rotary engine, but if you do this:

I have had a 3rd gen RX7 since 1992, and there are a lot of documented incidences of blowing up turbo-charged rotaries with improperly-implemented "enhancements."

Check the 2nd and 3rd-gen forums on RX7club.com for the whole story and how to prevent destroying the engine.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

Hey Spengo, you're just across the river from me. What do YOU race? (And when, and where?)


Now, on the other topics.

I'm in Oregon, and from what I can tell there are NO FE racers up here. (Checked the last couple of SCCA races at PIR, and saw nothing). That's one of the reasons I figured I would just grab a car that made me happy, and continue running track days like I had been.

The guy (mentioned above) that has the D1 has been a lifelong rotary fan. He's been mentioning that I should consider an FM, and since I won't be racing it, I could enhance it. "Bridge port", maybe a turbo. Things that wouldn't fly if I were trying to RACE it, but that would be fine for HPDE duty.

FE's are good cars - but their racing is spotty.
NoCal events seem to have a few racing, SoCal events have none racing.
Popular in the Midwest but 2 of the 3 for sale are in Colorado - so I guess its not happening there.

FM and FE are both Spec cars - so modifications will ruin their resale value. Give that a lot of consideration. You unseal an engine and it becomes worthless.

I think FE power can be increased a lot with an ignition (computer) change. Easy change and no breaking seals.

Some people have converted FEs to FBs which is a more popular class than FE or FM....

[BeerBudgetRacing]

Yeah I suggest FM as well. zero FE's in PNW, zero in socal. Norcal is down to 1 car that makes it to the track with any regularity.

Geez - only 1 now....

No wonder their prices are dropping .

[Spengo]

Hey Spengo, you're just across the river from me. What do YOU race? (And when, and where?)


Now, on the other topics.

I'm in Oregon, and from what I can tell there are NO FE racers up here. (Checked the last couple of SCCA races at PIR, and saw nothing). That's one of the reasons I figured I would just grab a car that made me happy, and continue running track days like I had been.

The guy (mentioned above) that has the D1 has been a lifelong rotary fan. He's been mentioning that I should consider an FM, and since I won't be racing it, I could enhance it. "Bridge port", maybe a turbo. Things that wouldn't fly if I were trying to RACE it, but that would be fine for HPDE duty.

I race shifter kart normally on the West coast. Here is my youtube: http://youtu.be/iWL8k5m9oEg Next race will be at ORP taking place this Saturday.

Check out the NWFC group, they seem to have a pretty good thing going on and you can pick up an older FC car really cheap.

[RSS]

Did somebody mention us.

Come on in sit down have some punch and we will get you sized up for a matching track suit ASAP.

Next closest NWFC race for us would be the Ridge Sept 19/20 if you want to come out and say hi.

You could try on some cars while there as I am not sure what would fit you maybe a newer VD?

www.northwestfc.net

[FrankRizzo]

FM and FE are both Spec cars - so modifications will ruin their resale value. Give that a lot of consideration. You unseal an engine and it becomes worthless.

Thought about this in the shower just now. I would remove the sealed engine, and replace it with one that I had bought, and had "massaged". Then, when/if resale time came around, I would swap the sealed one back in prior to listing.

[FrankRizzo]

You sound fairly knowledgeable about the rotary engine, but if you do this:

I have had a 3rd gen RX7 since 1992, and there are a lot of documented incidences of blowing up turbo-charged rotaries with improperly-implemented "enhancements."

Check the 2nd and 3rd-gen forums on RX7club.com for the whole story and how to prevent destroying the engine.

My local bud says "I've had every rotary vehicle with the exception of the Cosmos, the truck, and the RX-8". He's had them for years, and knows A LOT about them. To be honest, I was just parroting what he had told me HE would do. (If he were in my place).

[rickb99]

Frank,

The best bang for your buck in the Northwest is going to be FC with ICSCC. RSS's suggestion of going to The Ridge in September is a good one. Will have many, many cars there so you can find a model that fits you.

Then running with ICSCC you'll have a choice of 12 to 14 race weekends at 6 different tracks or you can run just the Northwest FC championship series which is a selected group of 6 to 8 races from the ICSCC schedule.

Then you'll have to choose between Pinto and Zetec for power Ohhh, so many decisions!

If you want to cook the engine, you can always run FS in SCCA or FL in ICSCC.

[FrankRizzo]

I'm curious to know what it was that I drove in the school. Here are some pics, and ID help would be appreciated!











What I heard while there was that they were "Nemesis SC99" cars with pinto engines.

So, what ARE they?

[Spengo]

I'm curious to know what it was that I drove in the school. Here are some pics, and ID help would be appreciated!

What I heard while there was that they were "Nemesis SC99" cars with pinto engines.

So, what ARE they?

Looks exactly like an FC to me. Old tube frame chassis with wings and a pinto engine.

[RSS]

Looks closer to a skippy car to me.

Google says an Nemesis SC99 whatever that is.

[FrankRizzo]

Looks closer to a skippy car to me.

Google says an Nemesis SC99 whatever that is.

That's my point exactly! I googled it, found that what I remembered my instructor telling me was correct, and then realized that I was unable to find out anything else about them.

[Spengo]

That's my point exactly! I googled it, found that what I remembered my instructor telling me was correct, and then realized that I was unable to find out anything else about them.

Well the true answer is really just "it's their own thing" like some other racing schools. Closest club racing car is FC, though the wings are likely much more effective and you'll be on slicks instead of street tires. Another question is were those school cars sequential transmission or h-shifter? FC is h-shifter but the skippy school cars have a sequential (because they take abuse without breaking better according to instructors).

If you want something that drives closer to a car with no downforce and street tires Club Ford (old formula fords) would probably be a good choice. I am not sure what kind of racing participation they get in the area but I've seen a few of them around when we did joint car and kart practice days.

[Keith Carter]

The guy (mentioned above) that has the D1 has been a lifelong rotary fan. He's been mentioning that I should consider an FM, and since I won't be racing it, I could enhance it. "Bridge port", maybe a turbo. Things that wouldn't fly if I were trying to RACE it, but that would be fine for HPDE duty.

Buy this and call it a day. If you're wanting a low maintenance track car which could be club raced, look no further. You can run this car into the ground and not worry about frequent motor rebuild costs. If you want bang for buck (including maintenance) you really can't beat this pricepoint for what your intended usage is. The livery is pretty cool too!

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69108

[fitfan]

JMO... based on the "don't want to race, and do track days only"

id follow the advice of the first 2 comments. closed wheel, but you can still go open cockpit. SRF, lots of options.

alternatively id suggest you DO race, in vintage, and go with no wings. FV or CF - if youre need for formula car outweighs desire for no racing/track days only.

[FrankRizzo]

Buy this and call it a day. If you're wanting a low maintenance track car which could be club raced, look no further. You can run this car into the ground and not worry about frequent motor rebuild costs. If you want bang for buck (including maintenance) you really can't beat this pricepoint for what your intended usage is. The livery is pretty cool too!

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69108

More like THIS one. It's even local.

[PF2000]

Mid- 80's Reynard FC is a good bet. Great entry level Formula Car for a great price. Low maintenance, good low cost parts availability, easy to set up and great fun to drive.

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69973

[Keith Carter]

Better yet!

[patman]

I am in the same area as you, and recently got into formula cars.

IMO, there is NO way I would buy any formula car unless you plan to race. There is practically zero opportunity to get on track with one in this area except at a race. I am hoping to put something together in the spring at ORP, and there are some opportunities at Spokane, but otherwise not much.

I have only been to a few races so far, but in the NW, it seems FC is the way to go by a large margin. At races I've been to there are several FCs, one or two FMs, and few of any other formula cars. It's why I bought a FC. ICSCC racing is pretty informal, as long as you are a safe driver there is no real pressure to go fast or anything, and the novice program allows you some comfort as you learn. I think you would be satisfied with this even if you aren't concerned with winning races or even keeping up with the pack. It's not too much more expensive than track days either.

If you are serious about not racing, you might check out a Lotus or a Panoz. I have an Elise, and the dynamics are very similar to a formula car, just a little slower. It's also cheap and trouble free to track. I was able to run slightly faster lap times at the Ridge compared to an Atom on same tires in the Lotus, so it wouldn't be too slow for you I don't think. Panoz is a similar experience in a bigger, faster package. For a track only car you could get into either one of those similarly priced to an FC.

[FrankRizzo]

IMO, there is NO way I would buy any formula car unless you plan to race. There is practically zero opportunity to get on track with one in this area except at a race. I am hoping to put something together in the spring at ORP, and there are some opportunities at Spokane, but otherwise not much.

You should chat with Dennis Palatov. He runs events at ORP all the time, and you could easily, and cheaply get into one of those. (Palatov.com).

The groups that I ran with in the Atom are the same groups that my bud runs his D1 in now. And he's getting no flack about it. Should I assume his tiny D1 is different?

I have only been to a few races so far, but in the NW, it seems FC is the way to go by a large margin. At races I've been to there are several FCs, one or two FMs, and few of any other formula cars. It's why I bought a FC. ICSCC racing is pretty informal, as long as you are a safe driver there is no real pressure to go fast or anything, and the novice program allows you some comfort as you learn. I think you would be satisfied with this even if you aren't concerned with winning races or even keeping up with the pack. It's not too much more expensive than track days either.

I believe that I COULD, eventually, get to races. But, I'd like to START doing track days to get used to the car, and get up to speed. (I don't want to be in the way).

If you are serious about not racing, you might check out a Lotus or a Panoz. I have an Elise, and the dynamics are very similar to a formula car, just a little slower. It's also cheap and trouble free to track. I was able to run slightly faster lap times at the Ridge compared to an Atom on same tires in the Lotus, so it wouldn't be too slow for you I don't think. Panoz is a similar experience in a bigger, faster package. For a track only car you could get into either one of those similarly priced to an FC.

I sat in an Elise once. Thought I was going to need help to get out. I'm a BIG guy, 6'3, 275. The distance between the door sill, and the bottom of the roof was too small for me. In the event of an emergency, I don't know that I could exit in a timely fashion. It just felt unsafe. Also, there are VERSIONS of the Atom. 245 HP, 300 HP, and the V8. In my 300HP Atom, I *NEVER* had a problem with an Elise/Exige at PIR. I could easily pass and then disappear from them. Now, as for the Panoz, I assume you're talking about the Esperante tube frame cars? There's a guy in my circle that runs one of those. Well, he TRIES to. He spends more time adjusting things on it than he does on track. It's almost like track days are an opportunity for him to come to the track and work on it. I'm not interested in THAT, AT ALL.

[patman]

You should chat with Dennis Palatov. He runs events at ORP all the time, and you could easily, and cheaply get into one of those. (Palatov.com).

Thanks for the suggestion. I will look into it.

The groups that I ran with in the Atom are the same groups that my bud runs his D1 in now. And he's getting no flack about it. Should I assume his tiny D1 is different?

Yes. The rules of nearly every track day organization state 'no open wheel cars'. Size might be the actual safety concern, but the way everyone's rules are stated, it's open wheel that's not allowed. Check with whatever organization you run with. Based on this logic, you might get away with a sports racer, I have seen a couple at track days in the past. Still, the fact that it is ALLOWED, doesn't mean it is SAFE, or something you will want to do on a regular basis. Much better to have a separate OW run group.

I believe that I COULD, eventually, get to races. But, I'd like to START doing track days to get used to the car, and get up to speed. (I don't want to be in the way).

I know how you feel for sure, I feel the same. But it isn't an easy thing to do around here, and I didn't want you to buy a car and then be frustrated when there are very few events where you can drive it. The only track day organization I have been involved with that *did* allow formula cars in the NW was Club Lotus NW, who have a track day at PIR once a year and allow open wheelers. It's actually next weekend this year, but I can't make it.


I sat in an Elise once. Thought I was going to need help to get out. I'm a BIG guy, 6'3, 275. The distance between the door sill, and the bottom of the roof was too small for me. In the event of an emergency, I don't know that I could exit in a timely fashion. It just felt unsafe. Also, there are VERSIONS of the Atom. 245 HP, 300 HP, and the V8. In my 300HP Atom, I *NEVER* had a problem with an Elise/Exige at PIR. I could easily pass and then disappear from them.

Sorry, wasn't trying to start a who's faster contest, just throwing out the option. I must have missed where you stated how big you are, that definitely wouldn't be great in a Lotus.

Now, as for the Panoz, I assume you're talking about the Esperante tube frame cars? There's a guy in my circle that runs one of those. Well, he TRIES to. He spends more time adjusting things on it than he does on track. It's almost like track days are an opportunity for him to come to the track and work on it. I'm not interested in THAT, AT ALL.

Did it occur to you that maybe its not the car? I know a few people who track the race versions of the Esperante, and have great luck with them. Again, it was just an idea.

...

[TimH]

IMO, there is NO way I would buy any formula car unless you plan to race. There is practically zero opportunity to get on track with one in this area except at a race.

While I agree with the statement I disagree with the sentiment. I was like you, Frank, saying "I don't want to be a moving chicane, I don't want to go wheel-to-wheel, I just want to gradually learn how to go a little faster in a car that is easily repaired if I get over my head and bend something." Meaning a formula car - unibodies don't take well to mishaps while a corner is easy to replace. And if you're ever going to get fast you're going to step over the line now and then.

Then my brother bought a car.

I don't care where I finish as long as he's behind me. And no matter how slow or fast I am there are always one or two others at just about the same pace that I just hate to see blocking my progress. Our group also has plenty of new guys just learning how to drive, and it is great fun watching them progress.

Driving is fun. And addictive. Racing is better. Do it.

[gcoffin]

Basically it comes down to what you can comfortably fit into mate. FMs are roomy, FCs are generally tighter but vary considerably by make and year, FE I have no idea. If you don't fit its game over.

As for pumping more horses into an FM, well they are already making 180-190 and are mated up to a gearbox very close to the limit of it's reliability. FCs can maybe add 25 hp before transmission reliability becomes an issue for the LD200, and the older Mk 9, is pretty much at the edge of reliability.

Like RSS said come up to the Ridge, and try on some cars. There should be a couple of Mygale FC cars generally the roomiest Ztec cars and a FM or two.