See the last sentence in post #75.Originally Posted by Brian
See the last sentence in post #75.
I know I'm a bit of a throwback, but the inherent danger of open wheel racing is part of its appeal to me. Also understand that any safety implementation, while probably reducing overall injury or death, simultaneously creates a new unforeseen danger. For example...seat belts have absolutely decreased automotive fatalities but in rare cases cause tracheal lacerations and aortic rupture. The bottom line is racing is dangerous. We all know it. The faster we go the greater the risk. No matter how safe we make it, there will always be fatalities.
I agree with Ric. If you look at the news any given day, there are endless horrible ways to die. Whether it's drowning off a ship packed full of migrants fleeing civil war or being shot on live tv by a disgruntled former colleague, the list is endless. When you sign up for open wheel racing or base jumping or any other sport with an element of risk, you have to know that there are consequences when things go wrong. We always need to look at ways to minimize risk, but if you enclose open wheel cars, you might as well just eliminate it as an option and just go with enclosed sports racers or sedans for everybody.
I enjoyed watching Justin Wilson race and will always remember him for that Watkins Glen race win for Coyne. RIP.
Top fuel canopy
Something like this could work very easily.
Tear offs would work no problem on a windshield like this.
Clearly the view is not an issue.
Extraction would be easy
Looks to be close to the same size
For those of you that say " we all know the risks when we get into the car" had better not be the same guys complaining about no new blood coming into the sport. Guess what. Safety plays a factor in weather a young person goes open wheel racing, or tin top racing. Especially if mommy and daddy are footing the bill. Or the person cares about his or her family. Sometimes we have to look beyond our own views.
What if people have a phobia about being eaten by a shark that canopy would put them straight into shock.
This picture didn't show up.
Yes sharks may be a problem. Lol
the gizmo is the easy part. the complications are not. top fuel doesn't run in the rain. or for ~2 hours... so they have to have an active anti-fog and active anti water removal system of the inside of the screen. and then those systems have to be developed and tested, packaged, and built into the car. along with that a top fuel is still, what? ~2 feet wider cockpit. if you seal up an F1 cockpit for 2 hours on track you then need to add air/ventilation. to seal it up your talking about re-designing the cars aero/intakes, developing the ingress/egrees hinges/mounts, the emergency release inside and out, the structure to attach it, restrain it, and make it strong enough it actually adds value. not saying all that can't happen - but it won't happen anytime soon until the cars are complexity re-invented. maybe 10 year from now...
i think the "halo" concept by mercedes is what will happen. all passive and requires no additional systems to manage climate and weather.
BT29-24 Swift DB1 Matra M530
Rather than rampant amateur speculation, here's what the experts say so far:
http://www.racecar-engineering.com/a...ockpits-to-f1/
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/116524
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e87HIlOIYFA
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...g-weather.html
Nice tribute above
I see what you've done in the banner above. JW
Nice tribute ApexSpeed.
The documentary "One" makes the point that things changed when Bernie and Max realized that even if death is part of the equation, death on live international TV is very bad publicity.
Caldwell D9B - Sold
Crossle' 30/32/45 Mongrel - Sold
RF94 Monoshock - here goes nothin'
From Mrs Frog's library...
Godspeed.
Last edited by Purple Frog; 11.08.16 at 12:24 AM.
Frog library
we need them back at The Glen
Dan Wheldon, Jules B and Justin Wilson would not have lived unless they had something on the order of a sprint car cage.
Think about it: Wheldon direct hit on a fence post, Jules ran under the back of a crane (or whatever the car removal device was), Justin Wilson had a 40 pound projectile strike him at close to 200 mph. Don't see how and reasonable "canopy" would have stopped any opf them.
When sprints and midgets went to full cages, the outcry was that they were for sissies and that they destroyed the looks of the car.
Find me a driver who will get in one of those things without a full cage.
First off the only thing holding back "new blood" from entering the sport is money or connections to money. There is definitely no shortage of people out there with aspirations of making it to F1 or Indy car and among the many others who would take any type of professional racing myself included.
Secondly there is quite a bit of truth to the statement "we all know the risks when we get into the car" While some who make it professionally might do it for the money I think you could take that away and there would still be plenty to fill their shoes because of the love for the sport.
It is also true that a majority of us do not want this to become a blood-sport and feel that the FIA and other safety organizations have done a pretty good job so jar of advancing safety in the racing community as a whole. No longer do you have to wonder which driver is going to be taken this week or the next?
However the fact that someone on here even mentioned TV screens and sims is downright laughable to me and kind of insulting. This is a sport that takes a real men or women and tests their physical and mental strength by pitting them against others of the same caliber to see who comes out ahead.
Safety will keep advancing and so will the technology of the cars. I hope that they come up with an agreeable decision that is excepted by most.
As of right now I can't picture open wheel cars with a canopy and I love being able to see the drivers helmet as they pass by. Perhaps once technology catches up they will look something like this:
http://andriesvanoverbeeke.com/39941...closed-cockpit
RIP Justin Wilson.
Never thought I would say this but that is a cool looking FV.
I've been against a full canopy, but that last "future" concept looks bad-ass ! ( techincal term, I know! ) Of course, in F1 the designers would come up with something hideous that improves the aero....
I agree. That Blade with the addition of a halo like the Merc concept seems like a decent option.
Seems FV was on the cutting edge a long time ago...
Maybe allow these again, as long as the strength is there?
~Matt Clark| RTJ-02 FV #92 | My YouTube Onboard Videos (helmet cam)
Im pretty sure those articles reinforced what i said previously. If the rollover structure was high enough and the canopy pivoted from the front in both directions you might solve 99% of entrapment issues.
Still have all the other concerns though.
An open wheel prototype might be much more feasible.
It seems that most debris or objects are appearing directly in front of the car. Think Massa and Wilson. In both cases debris was hit straight on. A robust, heavy duty windscreen that is a structural portion of the car would be enough to deflect debris yet still provide driver egress.
Ralph Z
1968 Alexis Mk14 Formula Ford
In many instances debris does appear directly in front of the car, but I don't believe this was the case with Henry Surtees' fatal injury. If I remember correctly, the wheel and tire assembly struck him from above when it was coming down.
Yes, the windscreen approach would not address all potential situations.
Ralph Z
1968 Alexis Mk14 Formula Ford
A 100% solution is probably unattainable. That doesn't mean that the 80% solution is not an improvement.
I like the windscreen approach. No change to drive egress and I thing it's something most cars can retrofit fairly reasonably...
Teams spend buckets of money to maintain their aero efficiency and cut drag. Any such item would have to be mandated by Whiting and would take many months in an expensive wind tunnel to design. Then sell it to the teams. And, not to sound callous, but what would s cost-benefit analysis show? I can only think of a handful of accidents where such a screen might have proved effective. Given the racing miles driven statistically this would be insignificant. I know these accidents are certainly significant to those who lose loved ones so don't even go there. We crucified GM for something like 20 deaths and 200 injuries out of over 11.000,000 cars.
Nanny State alert. Now there is a move to ban the showing of Gone With The Wind because it offends. What's next? Can't play the sound track from Exodus as it offends? Can't fly the US flag because it offends Indians (oops, native Americans)?
Rant (temporarily) over!
Last edited by Charles Warner; 08.29.15 at 2:10 PM.
Charlie Warner
fatto gatto racing
'Cause there's bugger-all down here on earth!
That concept car actually looks better to me than that gargoyle looking half breed IMSA shi- box that they are currently running. The way to prevent injuries on the ovals is to stop racing there. No one wants to see them, look at the ratings, look at the stands. When those crap wagons with all that garbage hanging off them hit the wall , any wall at 230 mph, someone is going to get hurt. The car advancement has far outpaced tracks that were designed for much slower cars. Slow the cars down or stop oval racing. Just my opinion.
RIP Justin Wilson
Charles,
Excellent post. You said some things I've wanted to but have been biting by tongue. Every time a fatality happens no matter how unusual the circumstance there is a knee jerk reaction that we have to fix something. We've become a soft country.
Mark D
It is not about being soft.
I bite my tongue often here (believe it or not)....I just tell my wife that she has no idea how much my filter actually catches.
However, this is about learning from mistakes. That is what wise people do. Knee-jerk "ban all guns" is what whack jobs do. In other words you must first correctly identify the problem before you go searching for solutions. Cockpit intrusion by heavy, airborne objects is the problem.
Yes, I agree with that. I went out to lunch with my son today. He's 42 and spent four years racing FC. We talked about the Wilson crash and I mentioned the resurfacing idea of windshields of some kind on open wheel cars.
He got irate immediately! Hi reaction was, anybody who gets in to an open wheel/open cockpit race car is fully aware of the dangers he's facing. But they do it anyway because they want the thrill of open wheel cars despite the risks. It's all part of the game.
CREW for Jeff 89 Reynard or Flag & Comm.
In that case we should probably do away with the HANS device. And crash helmets. And roll over bars for that matter.
Last edited by SEComposites; 11.25.15 at 9:07 PM.
If you want to.
Charlie Warner
fatto gatto racing
'Cause there's bugger-all down here on earth!
....and fuel cells and on board fire suppression systems and nomex and....
It's dangerous. Yep. No reason not to mitigate certain risks when feasible.
Roger Penske "Class Act"
[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]Shows just how he (Justin) touch people
**** Taken from Autoracing 1.com
Roger Penske is a firm believer in the strength of the team, and as owner of the most prolific organization in Indy car history, he should know. That's why, while being inducted to the Sonoma Raceway Wall of Fame today, Penske felt compelled to have a recently departed favorite member of the Verizon IndyCar Series team share the honor. As the plaque bearing his name and likeness was unveiled in Victory Lane, Penske asked Steve Page, Sonoma Raceway's president and general manager, to have Justin Wilson's name inscribed on it, too, before the plaque is posted with those of other wall of fame members behind the track's main grandstand.
"I wouldn't let this day go by without having his name on that plaque with me," Penske said of the 37-year-old driver who died Aug. 24 from a head injury sustained the day before at Pocono Raceway, "because he's one of the great guys. We lose a great friend and a competitor, and we need to honor him also."
Penske was inducted by Sonoma Raceway for his lifelong contributions to motorsports, in many ways.
"I can't think of anybody who is more deserving," track president Page said, "either for their record here at Sonoma or for the body of work that you look at in the motor racing industry. From someone who competed and raced here - and Roger just reminded me he won the Trans Am championship here in '69 - who built cars, who built engines, who built racetracks. Who has brought corporate America to a sport that is very dependent on sponsorship, and has really elevated this industry in ways that I don't think any other individual can lay claim to."
Penske owned the Chevrolet Camaro that Mark Donohue drove to the 1969 Trans Am title at Sonoma, two years before Donohue delivered the first of what is now a record 178 Indy car race wins for the team - including 16 at the Indianapolis 500. The team competed in its 700th Indy car race last weekend at Pocono.
"Everything you do, you kind of look back and say, 'Wow!'" Penske said. "There's no question, if you add it all up, it's been a terrific run for us. I remember when we won the Trans Am championship back in the '60s, it was one of the biggest days of our career. It's ironic that we're here tomorrow to try to win the Indy car championship again."
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You are right, Daryl. And, I would bet very few of us racers will do just that from this tragedy. The most important result here is the effect this accident had on Justin Wilson's family. I would be quite surprised if he had not had the "discussion" with his wife. How many of us have?
How many have their affairs in order so as to make it (somewhat) easier for his executor/lawyer to settle affairs? How many have set up a plan to dispose of the racing stuff should something happen? How many have a complete list of all credit cards, bank accounts, passwords, auto-pay accounts, insurance policies, beneficiaries, loans, legal responsibilities, warranties, website addresses and log in data, memberships, credit card points accounts, etc? Don't want this stuff listed? Put it on a protected zip drive and attach it to your will. Update it every 6 months or so. Make sure your lawyer/executor has a copy.
Unfortunately, I bet at least 20% of our racers don't even have a will. More's the pity.
Charlie Warner
fatto gatto racing
'Cause there's bugger-all down here on earth!
Not just racers. You don't have to be a millionaire to need a plan....
Your picture of Fangio in his 250F Maserati recalls an era when most Formula One drivers wanted to jump of be thrown out of the car so as not to be trapped when the gas tank caught on fire. THEY would not have wanted a canopy.
CREW for Jeff 89 Reynard or Flag & Comm.
Maybe more important is a Living Will/Healthcare Power of Attorney. Karen Quinlan was 21 years old when she lost the ability to speak for herself. Nancy Cruzan was 25. You don't have to be an old geezer like most formula racers.
Caldwell D9B - Sold
Crossle' 30/32/45 Mongrel - Sold
RF94 Monoshock - here goes nothin'
I'm not quite sure what your point is. My point was to show how much safer race cars are now. If the next step is a wind shield (it doesn't have to be closed top) then why not?
Yep - I was referring to the whole package. Yes it'll cost a few thousand, but as I told my son when we were building a lemons car, when you upside down and the cars on fire, you'll never say "I'm glad I saved $800 and used the original fuel tank".....
Some things you just need to do..
Same reason I have so far declined to join team efforts in that and another series. Even if I chose to race a safe Lemons car, the car that takes me out and pins me up against the wall has a poorly installed fuel tank and I end up suffering because of the corners they cut.
I saw a wreck and fire at Oildale 20 years ago, when car A took out car B and had B pinned up against the wall. Car A caught on fire. Driver B had no way to get out of the car or move hers
(No reverse, no starter, pass door up against wall, drivers' door up against the other car. Window openings too small to climb out of). Recipe for disaster. Safety rules need changing after things like that happen.
Ahhh, you mean mandate HIGHER wind screens? Yes, that's what I would try first if you can find a strong enough material (such as fighter jet canopy material).
That's exactly why Fangio's wind screen was so high. Back in the day, there was a huge amount of dirt and rocks thrown up by the cars ahead.
CREW for Jeff 89 Reynard or Flag & Comm.
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