FV Spec Tire Poll

[B Farnham]

FF has had some polls, figured it wouldn't be a bad idea to see where everyone on the forum stands.

Also send your letters in to get the process started, we don't need to decide now as to what tire but lets get everything started at least. CRB Link

[Mark Filip]

FF has had some polls, figured it wouldn't be a bad idea to see where everyone on the forum stands.

Also send your letters in to get the process started, we don't need to decide now as to what tire but lets get everything started at least. CRB Link

This has already been done

[B Farnham]

This has already been done

Link to said poll?

[Mark Filip]

Link to said poll?

if you have been reading all the previous threads it is very easy to find the results.

[B Farnham]

if you have been reading all the previous threads it is very easy to find the results.

You mean the poll from years ago? A lot has changed since then

[Mark Filip]

You mean the poll from years ago? A lot has changed since then

I don't think it was "Years ago" 2 maybe.... what has changed?

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/show...t=69837&page=7

Post 248

[B Farnham]

I don't think it was "Years ago"

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/show...t=69837&page=7

Post 248

2012 is years ago, or am I missing something?

Back in 2012 no one ran the Falkens in the U.S. and FF wasn't thinking about going to the Toyos. Times have changed, look at the poll thus far

[Mark Filip]

2012 is years ago, or am I missing something?

Back in 2012 no one ran the Falkens in the U.S. and FF wasn't thinking about going to the Toyos. Times have changed, look at the poll thus far

You have to be kidding.... that's what has changed in 2 years

[B Farnham]

You have to be kidding.... that's what has changed in 2 years

The survey from 3 years ago called for a treaded tire similar to a vintage tire and a DOT tire, both had very little support. Should I delete the thread to make you happy though? It seems I've offended you somehow

[Mark Filip]

The survey from 3 years ago called for a treaded tire similar to a vintage tire, not something like the Falken package. Should I delete the thread to make you happy though? It seems I've offended you somehow

Not at all i was just saying it has been covered, but really not much has changed

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

Not at all i was just saying it has been covered, but really not much has changed

I would say enough has changed to warrant the poll again.

It seems to bother you quite a bit. Why?

[B Farnham]

Not at all i was just saying it has been covered, but really not much has changed

3 years ago out of 252 respondants only 6% voted for a DOT tire which equates to 15 people. In this poll so far 10 out of the 15 have voted for a DOT tire which shows something has changed. It never hurts to have more data

[Tiago Santos]

Two years ago I would've and probably voted for a spec racing slick tire. I would easily change my vote now to running a spec radial. After running the radials the last two weekends, I am hooked.

It'd be awesome if the world remained constant over two years. Actually no, that would be horrible.

[Mark Filip]

I would say enough has changed to warrant the poll again.

It seems to bother you quite a bit. Why?

Someone please tell me what has changed?

[Tiago Santos]

The world spun around the sun twice. ISIL showed al-qaeda the finger and took over the region. Apparently quite a few people changed their minds on what kind of tire they'd like to run.

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

Someone please tell me what has changed?

Ok, for one thing in the SF region this year we have had an average of 1 car/race in FV.

That is the lowest it has ever been by far. And we have a great spec tire rule.

I have no idea why this is, or what to do about it, but sitting around and saying that nothing has changed and everything is fine is kind of like putting your head in the sand.

These are not the droids you're looking for......

[G.B.]

Someone please tell me what has changed?

The USA has discovered that Falken tires are not that bad.

[BLS]

I voted for the radial, but I like the alternate were both slicks/radials can be used better.

[veeracer98]

The only vote that matters Nationally (in SCCA) is with the CRB. Write to them and let them know what you want.

[Mark Filip]

The USA has discovered that Falken tires are not that bad.

The USA or 15-20 drivers?

Ok, for one thing in the SF region this year we have had an average of 1 car/race in FV.

A spec tire will not fix this IMO. Something like what we are doing in the Northeast might help but it may be just to late.

I agree $800 tires does not help but neither does $500 entry fees or $3 gal fuel to travel all while wages of most FV entrants are low. My guess is the west coast average income is higher than the east and young new driver have chosen more expensive fancy classes to start in.

[nbrigido]

The USA or 15-20 drivers?




A spec tire will not fix this IMO. Something like what we are doing in the Northeast might help but it may be just to late.

I agree $800 tires does not help but neither does $500 entry fees or $3 gal fuel to travel all while wages of most FV entrants are low. My guess is the west coast average income is higher than the east and young new driver have chosen more expensive fancy classes to start in.

Not to late, and marketing the series FV /F1200 Will help..Weather the NE, Challenge Cup, SFR, F1200. Everyone is doing something to increase participation.

Certain costs of racing we are not going to be able to change, like entry fee's, but can we control other factors to off-set that.

FV /F1200 is NOT dead, it is actually growing in Participation this year, and with everyone working together it will grow more next year.

Remember;

There are cars in Garages that need to come out.
There are drivers dong 2-3 event how can we get that to 5-6
There are potential drivers looking to get into Opne Wheel racing, we need those.
There are potential drivers that do not know we exist, we need to get those.

I know, easy on paper a lot harder in real life.

You think we are the only class worried about participation and Spec tires? look around the forums. This is racing in general.

[Mark Filip]

Not to late, and marketing the series FV /F1200 Will help..Weather the NE, Challenge Cup, SFR, F1200. Everyone is doing something to increase participation.

I say it's might be to late because there is no one there to push like we have in the NE.

FV/F1200 is NOT dead, it is actually growing in Participation this year, and with everyone working together it will grow more next year.

I'm well aware it is growing in the NE we have been working on it for 4 years.

There are cars in Garages that need to come out.

I agree but how do we convince these people to bring the car back out? In most cases these people are done and will cost thousand to get back out there not just because of tires.

There are drivers dong 2-3 event how can we get that to 5-6

Give them a raise, more time off, convince the wife or husband they need to spend less time with family? There is many reasons, people do the number of events they do. I do agree tire cost will help but will that alone make all the difference? I'm not so sure.

There are potential drivers looking to get into Opne Wheel racing, we need those.
There are potential drivers that do not know we exist, we need to get those.

This is the reason we have been doing what we have in the Northeast. I encourage every region that has people willing to help to take a look at nefv.org a simple informational site with contact information has gone a long way for us. The more information we have out there the better.

I know, easy on paper a lot harder in real life.

You are correct it looks easy but it's a lot of work especially when most of us have full time jobs and families.

You think we are the only class worried about participation and Spec tires? look around the forums. This is racing in general.

I agree we are not the only class worried but we can only control ours.

[nbrigido]

I think everyone is on the right track we just have to keep doing more of it. There are things we can even do between regions/series to make it better for next year as we are alwasy learning.

We are Supposed to be the most cost effect for of racing with focus on driving skills. Let's do it. And if it one region at a time, let push forward, Get more FV only race groups.

[BLS]

My guess is the west coast average income is higher than the east and young new driver have chosen more expensive fancy classes to start in.

No need to guess, not even close. Cali is 10th by state income. 6 of the top 10 are east coast states. That is excluding DC which is also top 10.

[Johan W]

I don't think it was "Years ago" 2 maybe.... what has changed?

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/show...t=69837&page=7

Post 248

I didn't vote for one as I've been racing elsewhere. Now I have the opportunity to vote and add my choice democraticly.

[problemchild]

If only 5% of the FV community want the Falken package, as some want us to believe, and there are 18 who have voted so (30 total), then it is time for the other 330 people to vote

[lucky13]

I don't see the point of slamming Brian's post because you don't think things have changed enough since the last time a poll was created. Isn't part of the idea of a poll to determine if views have changed? You get one vote just like everyone else. Place your one vote, wait for the results, and then bask in the glory of being correct. Why does everything always have to deteriorate into senseless bickering that just distracts attention away from valid discussion?

Brian.....just add a fourth option to your poll that says "Nothing has changed since the last poll" so people have a place to state their opinion without cluttering up reasonable discussion about what has changed among those who believe things have indeed changed.

[Johan W]

The USA or 15-20 drivers?




A spec tire will not fix this IMO. Something like what we are doing in the Northeast might help but it may be just to late.

I agree $800 tires does not help but neither does $500 entry fees or $3 gal fuel to travel all while wages of most FV entrants are low. My guess is the west coast average income is higher than the east and young new driver have chosen more expensive fancy classes to start in.

Your'e spot on with the entry fees. Spec tire though helps a lot to get healthy fields to races. This is my 40th year racing formula Vees on spec tires(mostly in South Africa). Only raced the 30th anniversary at Elkhartlake on slicks with one of Bill Nobles vees.

We may not be elitists nor future stars but still enjoy the rush in the Challenge Cup group. Everything equal with tires that last three years a big bonus. I'm now on my second season old Falkens and still manage to be in the top five with less then a second difference between the first five(Pittsburg).....and not a big difference to the seventeenth spot.

As someone cautioned...if FF go to spec tires we may loose even more drivers as cost per race would be close to equal for the mid pack driver.

[Johan W]

[QUOTE=fvracer27;482143]I say it's might be to late because there is no one there to push like we have in the NE.


I agree but how do we convince these people to bring the car back out? In most cases these people are done and will cost thousand to get back out there not just because of tires.


In the case with slicks and a limited budget it's near impossible. With a set of Falkens on your vee you can selectively choose to race the odd race here and there. I choose to take part in as many races as possible due to the tire package and spending less racing dollar per event.

However with the second vee in the household it's a case of getting it ready on limited funds My son in law can now afford to take part in a few races on the Falkens and would be out on track next year.

Those in garages can now rent a set of tires and rims for as little as $50 and be competitive.

[Johan W]

I say it's might be to late because there is no one there to push like we have in the NE.

Give them a raise, more time off, convince the wife or husband they need to spend less time with family? There is many reasons, people do the number of events they do. I do agree tire cost will help but will that alone make all the difference? I'm not so sure.

This is the reason we have been doing what we have in the Northeast. I encourage every region that has people willing to help to take a look at nefv.org a simple informational site with contact information has gone a long way for us. The more information we have out there the better.

You are correct it looks easy but it's a lot of work especially when most of us have full time jobs and families.

I agree we are not the only class worried but we can only control ours.

Someone mentioned it's just 20 odd drivers. Yet we have a successful series with high participation. Now 31 members in the Challenge Cup alone and growing.

We got two"families" drawn into our social and racing family the past event. Now we have them promoting(here on Apex) the tire of choice for the series.

Rather encourage the family to enjoy and take part. We have numerous families in our group that enjoy the social around the events. For the first time my wife seems to enjoy the group of friends. Although she do some revenge or equal shopping if we get close to New York.

Within the group it's chatter about the escalating entry fee cost....not tires anymore.

[SpacemanSpiff]

So the FF thread hit the skids when Toyo no-bid the deal and they're now looking at a spec radial that may cause issues (real or imagined) with many club cars and may or not be all that much longer living then the existing tire. Maybe Falken is different, but I wouldn't guarantee that if you ask for a spec tire you'll get everything you want. Track side service was proposed as an issue.

Not to say it's not an appealing and good idea, but consider the unintended consequences.

[B Farnham]

So the FF thread hit the skids when Toyo no-bid the deal and they're now looking at a spec radial that may cause issues (real or imagined) with many club cars and may or not be all that much longer living then the existing tire. Maybe Falken is different, but I wouldn't guarantee that if you ask for a spec tire you'll get everything you want. Track side service was proposed as an issue.

Not to say it's not an appealing and good idea, but consider the unintended consequences.

Good points, although I'm not sure how much trackside support we'd need with tires that last 2-3 years. Falken might jump at the opportunity to be the spec tire for FV unlike Toyo who seems to have backed away from FF. First things first though we need to get the CRB to agree to a spec tire before we decide on which one to go with.

[SpacemanSpiff]

It seems to be an SCCA requirement, not an actual racer's need.

[Johan W]

Good points, although I'm not sure how much trackside support we'd need with tires that last 2-3 years. Falken might jump at the opportunity to be the spec tire for FV unlike Toyo who seems to have backed away from FF. First things first though we need to get the CRB to agree to a spec tire before we decide on which one to go with.

Trackside support not a problem. In Canada we have Falken at the track with all the equipment to change tires balancing etc. Bill also have some spares in his trailer. In the US we have Dean slugging four to five sets on rims to all the races.

[nbrigido]

Good points, although I'm not sure how much trackside support we'd need with tires that last 2-3 years. Falken might jump at the opportunity to be the spec tire for FV unlike Toyo who seems to have backed away from FF. First things first though we need to get the CRB to agree to a spec tire before we decide on which one to go with.

I cannot see either of these companies being able to financially support track Side service, and would use a distributor network.

Like you mentioned, 2 years on tires, there is not alot of $$ to be made and same for Toyo. These companies generate the majority of their income from the general public and street cars.

They would probably like to be Title sponsors for series, and offer special deals on tires for racers, but trackside service direct from manufacturer, doubt it

[problemchild]

So the FF thread hit the skids when Toyo no-bid the deal and they're now looking at a spec radial that may cause issues (real or imagined) with many club cars and may or not be all that much longer living then the existing tire. Maybe Falken is different, but I wouldn't guarantee that if you ask for a spec tire you'll get everything you want. Track side service was proposed as an issue.

Not to say it's not an appealing and good idea, but consider the unintended consequences.

Clearly, with the FF spec tire, the parameters were tilted to ensure a particular outcome. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to understand that using street tires that last for 5 weekends will only require minimal service. Most racers will now have more wheels than they need with such a tire, which will allow people to carry mounted spares. In emergencies, any tire shop can sort out the problem racer. To pay a 300% premium to have trackside service at a few of the larger events, is just nonsense. With FV, the Falken tires last much longer than the Toyos, so it is an even more absurd requirement. People just do not understand that tires just become a non-consumable item that get forgotten about for years at a time. Setting tire pressures just becomes a task for the obsessed

[budawe]

Here are links to the most recent fastrac. In addition to the SRF announcement it shows the results of the FF survey and process.

http://www.scca.com/downloads/9144-1...september-bo-d

http://cdn.growassets.net/user_files...pdf?1440094756

[Steve Bamford]

Quotes from another thread that should be applied here as well. Todd gave great information about the process itself. I just worry that what the Falkin camp is asking for will push for a spec tire and end up with something you are not asking for based on the SCCA process. After the FF tire process some of us have learned a few issues leadership may use to keep some current partners whole.

Those who wish Falcons as a spec tire must make it clear what you asking the SCCA for. The reason I say that is FF decision on spec tire is coming in the next few months however the DOT tire that the majority on poles voted for is not in consideration based on the RFP process put out by the SCCA. Toyo did not respond to SCCA RFP process so therefore excluded. Toyo does not have track support that was one of the requirements by racers according to other surveys and neither does Falcon.

If it gets to the point SCCS moves for a spec tire in FV, everyone asking for a Falcon will be disappointed unless the RFP that the SCCA puts out will be different then how they did the FF tire RFP.

I understand the process a little better now after requesting a FF spec tire so there are a few things to consider when asking big brother to make a decision as to what you race upon as spec.

Whether the FF guys get a spec tire or not for 2016 will depend on their responses to the recommended tire in Fastrack when BoD votes to make the proposed rule official or not in October, but I will tell you how it needs to work from an SCCA rules making process for FV.

First it needs to be driven from the bottom up. With the exception of a spec class like SRF and FE, top down from Topeka will not drive a spec tire decision for a Club Racing class. Technically Topeka does not drive SRF/FE tire decisions either, those come from Enterprises in Colorado, but you get the point I hope!

Second Internet polls while sometimes entertaining don’t mean squat. What needs to happen is a number of letters submitted to CRB www.crbscca.com requesting a formal poll of FV drivers to determine the desire and basic characteristics of a spec tire for FV. The poll would include feedback on need for track support, desire (or not) for contingencies, pricing, tire wear, etc. The FSRAC would devise a poll, SCCA sends it out and the results get published. In the case of FF this happened late 2014, CRB published a Member Advisory in February 2015 and now we have a specific proposed spec tire out there for member comment.

Next, assuming the survey comes back in favor, SCCA Inc in Topeka would issue an RFP to the tire companies. Typically the usual suspects, maybe a few wildcards mentioned (Falken, Pirelli, Bob’s Big O Tires). The manufacturer *must* be interested in the spec tire proposal and idea. We’re talking about all races across the US, not just a specific series where a tire retailer could support. If your favorite manufacturer is not interested in responding then that cuts them out of the possible choices.

Based on your survey responses, manufacturer response to RFP, a recommendation would be made by FSRAC, sent thru CRB and out to Members for comment as a proposed rule for 201X. In theory you could do all the above in 2016 and be ready this time next year to have BoD vote in October 2016 for a 2017 spec tire for FV.

The wrinkle in the above is possible tire testing. Tire testing costs SCCA time, money, resources and results are still going to piss some people off. There is very little interest at the National level or BoD level to have SCCA spend time, money, resources doing tire testing for Club Racing classes outside of spec classes. If it really came down to 2 or 3 viable FV tire spec candidates, it might have to come down to a class vote or generally agreed reasonable, independent, published tire testing and consensus building in the FV community. In other words, a bottom up decision and some degree of leadership displayed to help build that community consensus (OK agreement, consensus would be a stretch!). Not trying to be an a**hole about this but the community can’t be looking to Topeka and the other 60K members to help subsidize costs to field a spec tire for FV.

I hope the above helps. Tires are probably one of if not then biggest single expense over a season of racing for most of us competing as Club Racers.
Good luck guys…

Todd Butler
Area 13 Director (for 4 more months before parole!)

[Peter Olivola]

Your comment perpetuates misinformation. SCCA doesn't necessarily require trackside support. In the case of FF, the survey showed competitors considered trackside support to be important. If a similar survey for FV showed trackside support wasn't an important consideration that wouldn't be part of the RFP.

Clearly, with the FF spec tire, the parameters were tilted to ensure a particular outcome. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to understand that using street tires that last for 5 weekends will only require minimal service. Most racers will now have more wheels than they need with such a tire, which will allow people to carry mounted spares. In emergencies, any tire shop can sort out the problem racer. To pay a 300% premium to have trackside service at a few of the larger events, is just nonsense. With FV, the Falken tires last much longer than the Toyos, so it is an even more absurd requirement. People just do not understand that tires just become a non-consumable item that get forgotten about for years at a time. Setting tire pressures just becomes a task for the obsessed