Spec Tire Poll... again.

[BURKY]

You're right Burky, SCCA is king and the outsiders racing elsewhere that would like to join, but for the tire expense are nothing.

Congrats on being king of nothing.

Marshall,

It was a simple question... and now you're putting words in my mouth.

[Jnovak]

Brian,

The issue under discussion in the thread was whether or not someone should support the proposed spec tire rule which is applicable to Major's. The discussion was not about whether Major's is a good or bad concept or whether SCCA is adequately marketing itself or its programs to potential participants. Those are all worthy points of discussion, but the single issue at play is the tire rule as proposed for Major's. As has been noted elsewhere, the regions and other programs are free to choose any tire and this freedom will continue with or without the spec tire as proposed; this allows them to cater to the specific needs and desires of their participants which may or may not follow those involved in the Major's.

Again, it is much easier to sit at your computer and look for all of the things that the Club is doing wrong rather than right. By no means do I think that all is well within the Club and I have done my share of bitching and complaining, but when asked I volunteered my time and resources to the cause. Put your money where your mouth is. Step up to the plate and submit your resume' or otherwise become involved in the Club. Time spent helping to improve the Club and its programs is far more rewarding and appreciated than the time spent as an antagonist. Once you see what it takes to put on this circus you will gain an appreciation for the hard work being done by the clowns to move the ball forward for the good of all.

John is correct.

[Brian C in Az]

Brian,

The issue under discussion in the thread was whether or not someone should support the proposed spec tire rule which is applicable to Major's. The discussion was not about whether Major's is a good or bad concept or ....

I never mentioned the Majors.

My points have always been how this is negatively affecting the amatuer class.

My points are how the club has been losing entries and race members while other clubs are gaining entries and members. The open tire rule has been a bad policy and needs to be changed.

[John LaRue]

Brian I am struggling to understand your gripe as it pertains to the proposed spec tire rule. The proposed rule is specific to the Major's, nothing else. It doesn't impact regional programs; they can follow the proposed rule, adopt an open rule or an alternative spec tire rule. FWIW some regions already have a spec tire rule in place. If you were to become involved in your local region perhaps you could convince them to adopt a spec Toyo tire rule.

[John LaRue]

Oh, and btw your off handed comment about being a lap dog is duly noted. If you truly knew me you would realize how far off base that comment actually is. I am trying to be civil and have an adult discussion to address the problem, it is apparent you are struggling with such a concept. If you would like to pick up the phone and call me my number is on the SCCA web site. Again, I am trying to help the cause not create barriers.

[Daryl DeArman]

"Do what you want in your region" isn't a solution.

It's an exercise where you know the end result will support the "see people don't want a spec tire" argument. Fact is, people who want to race Majors are willing to justify lots of stupid choices in order to do so.

If the "do what you want in your region" was a real solution, why not have the regions who wish, adopt and open tire rule? Let the majors folks race on a spec Toyo. You won't lose a single Majors entrant because of a cheaper tire and you may just gain a few.

It's politics plain and simple. If everybody has to be on Toyo's, there is absolutely ZERO incentive for TOYO to give anybody free tires. Hoosier and SCCA need each other much more than Toyo needs SCCA.

Telling somebody they can't complain unless they are doing something to help is like complaining people aren't helping to bail a sinking ship with a teaspoon. It's got an 8' diameter hole in it... I'm getting on the little raft the people steering the ship made fun of not too long ago.

[SEComposites]

Back home in the UK I want to do a local FF race in my 89 Reynard at, say the Castle Coombe championship. I roll up with my Avon treaded tires and have a great time. Next week I fancy going to Brands Hatch. I roll up with my Avons and have a great time. The following week it's a round of the National Championship with all the big boys of club racing at Oulton Park. I roll up with my Avons and have a great time. At the end of the year I fancy doing the Formula Ford Festival against the cream of the crop from the UK, Europe and even a U.S. backed scholarship team. A week later it's the Walter Hayes trophy. Have a guess what tires I'll need?

It is pure madness to have all US FF's on different tires. Whatever the spec tire turns out to be this should be the tire for all FF's.

[Hardingfv32]

...It's politics plain and simple...

It is not personal... it is just business. Toyo did not respond to the RFP which was a business decision on their part. If you want Toyos you guys need to get Toyo to meet SCCA's requirements. Or you could get SCCA to change its contract requirement. Either choice requires some effort by someone who in interested in using TOYOs. Have you done anything in this regard?

Brian

[Hardingfv32]

The proposed rule is specific to the Major's, nothing else.

A) In the new FF tire rule wording.. will it say that the Hoosier Radial must be used at Majors and that all other events are run under an open tire rule?

B) Or.. Are you implying that the Hoosier Radial is listed and that their will be nothing preventing to use of other tires under a Regional Supp designation.

Brian

[swiftdrivr]

John,
I do appreciate you guys who donate your time and expertise to run the club. Sometimes I am sure that seems a thankless job. So don't take this as a personal critique. It seems this rule is certainly FOR the majors, but that in and of itself is a major disappointment. Reid began pushing this, I think, and this was supported by many, as a spec tire for FF. All of us. This tire may fit the majors guys. It doesn't fit the rest of us nearly so well. It is disappointing that a plan with such potential now only works for guys with new cars. The goal was to have a tire everyone would run, and everyone would save money with. This tire, at least for several years, COSTS me money. It doesn't begin to save me money for 3 years, and then, not that much. It seems the goal of a cheaper, longer lasting tire that we would all run, that would draw in more racers, got sidetracked or was simply unobtainable. I am not a huge Toyo fan, and although I am sure business needs dictated much of what was offered, I don't join the conspiracy theorist, but this tire meets the goals of 80% of 80 members of the portion of the club that run the majors. That isn't what I thought we were pushing for.

[John LaRue]

The Regions would be free to adopt their own tire rule and opt out of the GCR requirement. Take a look at the San Francisco Region's "Region Only Rules". I suppose you could address the matter in the supps, but would anticipate something like SFR has adopted.

[marshall9]

Marshall,

It was a simple question... and now you're putting words in my mouth.

lol, not trying to be contrary, but those of the opinion that only the opinion of current SCCA members count are indicative of the coming downfall. As I see it, the Club needs growth, not keeping only the remaining members happy.

[reidhazelton]

.

[marshall9]

Marshall,

It was a simple question... and now you're putting words in my mouth.

Since apparently the non members opinions don't matter.........

[marshall9]

The Regions would be free to adopt their own tire rule and opt out of the GCR requirement. Take a look at the San Francisco Region's "Region Only Rules". I suppose you could address the matter in the supps, but would anticipate something like SFR has adopted.

So John,
Are you saying that if regionally, a group of say 10FFs wanted to race, on Toyos, that there is no red tape in doing so? Just mount 'em up and show up? Maybe I need to read the GCR again, but I think there are some prohibitions to this, that require permission. Or is the rule, open tires in so long as the sizes are compliant?

[reidhazelton]

Maybe I need to read the GCR again, but I think there are some prohibitions to this, that require permission. Or is the rule, open tires in so long as the sizes are compliant?

Unless other rules apply per region (Such as R60 for CFF in CenDiv) FF has been whatever tire fits on a 13x5.5" wheel. You can show up on Uniroyal Tiger Paws if you want/

[John LaRue]

Marshall,

You need to have the region approve (adopt) the rule(s) you want. Look at the San Francisco web site where the list "region only" rules. I imagine that you might even be able to do this on a race by race basis through the supps, but I haven't seen it done that way.

[-pru-]

Are you saying that if regionally, a group of say 10FFs wanted to race, on Toyos, that there is no red tape in doing so? Just mount 'em up and show up?

Yep, which is why I am confused why groups of folks are not doing just that now for SCCA FF races. Nothing is stopping you. Just don't be mad when others decide to run a different tire and go faster / win...

Of course the overall win is the underlying reason behind this spec tire argument; LETS HAVE A SPEC TIRE TO KEEP IT FAIR..

Yea, the spec tire may end up being cheaper and the margins of victory may be closer but the same folks are going to be up front in the end.

Maybe I need to read the GCR again, but I think there are some prohibitions to this, that require permission. Or is the rule, open tires in so long as the sizes are compliant?

By my read, any tire that will fit on a 13x5.5, hence open.

[Daryl DeArman]

It is not personal... it is just business. Toyo did not respond to the RFP which was a business decision on their part. If you want Toyos you guys need to get Toyo to meet SCCA's requirements. Or you could get SCCA to change its contract requirement. Either choice requires some effort by someone who in interested in using TOYOs. Have you done anything in this regard?

Brian

Yes sir, I raced for 16 seasons, probably somewhere around 200 events. Not a single one with SCCA. That's what I did. It's actually quite effective.

SCCA may realize someday that they need racers more than the racers need the SCCA.

[Daryl DeArman]

So John,
Are you saying that if regionally, a group of say 10FFs wanted to race, on Toyos, that there is no red tape in doing so? Just mount 'em up and show up? Maybe I need to read the GCR again, but I think there are some prohibitions to this, that require permission. Or is the rule, open tires in so long as the sizes are compliant?

You could show up at a Majors on Toyos if you wanted. Problem is you'll be racing against folks on Hoosier slicks and that isn't likely to be much of a race.

[swiftdrivr]

deleted. incorrect interpretation of rules application

[John LaRue]

We are setting a spec tire for FF. If a Division series or Regional series wants an alternate tire then they create a FFT, FFG, CF, whatever class with specific tire rules, but it is not the national FF class. There is still going to be a national FF class in Division (or Region) running the spec national tire. The Divisional/Regional FFT, FFG, CF, whatever class is not Runoffs eligible because you can’t get to the Runoffs in a non-national class via the Divisional path.

[Todd Butler]

We are setting a spec tire for FF. If a Division series or Regional series wants an alternate tire then they create a FFT, FFG, CF, whatever class with specific tire rules, but it is not the national FF class. There is still going to be a national FF class in Division (or Region) running the spec national tire. The Divisional/Regional FFT, FFG, CF, whatever class is not Runoffs eligible because you can’t get to the Runoffs in a non-national class via the Divisional path.

John is correct.

On to other points….

As noted previously, only 2 manufacturers responded to the RFP, Hoosier and (cats’s out of the bag so I’ll say it) Pirelli. Toyo ack’d receiving the RFP but declined to respond. Hoosier proposed the FF1600 pro radial. Pirelli proposed a tire used only in Europe. Considering we were looking at a spec tire for 2016, seriously considering a Pirelli tire that nobody has ever seen on this side of the Atlantic seemed a stretch. So Pirelli was dropped and we focused on Hoosier.

The vendor responses to SCCA is proprietary. We are not going to release that. If you want current or ballpark pricing information for tires you can go find it from public sources. Vendors proposed cost per tire with, and without contingencies, some payment consideration to SCCA Inc, and addressed support model.

I said this previously, I’ll say it again: SCCA Inc BoD has made it very clear and SCCA Staff agrees that spec tires are not to be cash cows for the National office. We all fully realize that payments to national office for the privilege of being spec tire, just like paying contingencies, impacts the cost of tires to competitors therefore this number should be a reasonable number and cover the cost of the program administration. No we are not going to tell you what this is/was. Again that is proprietary information. Any of you that have done RFPs, solicited bids from various sources, anybody in business, understands this. You don’t publish vendor responses and publicaly tell the world what you agreed to financially. We may be a Club, but there are aspects of the Club that do have to be run like a business. That’s why you have a SCCA staff and a Board of Directors. If you want specific breakdown by vendor for contingencies and payments to SCCA Inc beyond the financial summary published by SCCA every year, you will just have to run for and get elected to the BoD and then be on the Budget and Finance Committee!

Todd Butler
Area 13 Director (for 4 more months)

[Daryl DeArman]

We all fully realize that payments to national office for the privilege of being spec tire, just like paying contingencies, impacts the cost of tires to competitors therefore this number should be a reasonable number and cover the cost of the program administration.

I completely understand why the responses to RFPs would not be disclosed prior to selection of the tire. Afterwards, why don't the members have the right to learn the terms?

What would you estimate the "cost of program administration"? It's as simple as the volunteer tech people looking at the tires and a few keystrokes to change the GCR. Everything else that I can think of in the process would be things in the normal scope of BoD and National Office employees' job description as elected/appointed officers and employees of the club.

What am I missing?

[BLS]

"The vendor responses to SCCA is proprietary."

I think everyone understands that.

Publish the RFP so everyone can understand the criteria. There is no reason to keep it hidden from the members of the club.

[Brian C in Az]

Brian I am struggling to understand your gripe as it pertains to the proposed spec tire rule. The proposed rule is specific to the Major's, nothing else. It doesn't impact regional programs; they can follow the proposed rule, adopt an open rule or an alternative spec tire rule. FWIW some regions already have a spec tire rule in place. If you were to become involved in your local region perhaps you could convince them to adopt a spec Toyo tire rule.

That is the crux of the problem. There is no spec tire for the various regions. If I want to go to Texas to race, the tire rule is not the same as if I go to Ca to race; even northern Ca and San Diego are different.

Costs are out of control as a result.

If you (the SCCA) want to increase memberships and entries, then do what everyone has been asking; create a spec tire rule for FF / CFF incorporating a tire that is readily available and doesn't require 4 or 5 degrees of negative camber to work properly. Other countries have found an easy solution, why can't the SCCA follow suit? Why must they (literally) reinvent the wheel?

[Brian C in Az]

As noted previously, only 2 manufacturers responded to the RFP, Hoosier and (cats’s out of the bag so I’ll say it) Pirelli. Toyo ack’d receiving the RFP but declined to respond. Hoosier proposed the FF1600 pro radial. Pirelli proposed a tire used only in Europe. Considering we were looking at a spec tire for 2016, seriously considering a Pirelli tire that nobody has ever seen on this side of the Atlantic seemed a stretch. So Pirelli was dropped and we focused on Hoosier. ....

Pirelli offered a tire that is in current use in Europe, but the BoD chose an unknown and not yet in production tire from Hoosier????

That makes even less sense than all the arguments against the Toyo.....

[Brian C in Az]

From the Kentledge thread:

7 cars so far. Keep them coming please!

More entries in 3 days than many SCCA events.

From the Daytona Tires thread:

I can't imagine trying to go there and guess on how you spend 3-4 thousand on tires and not know you have the right tire for the event. That's a big gamble and will make and break some peoples week/season.

And

We've listened to everyone we respect and still aren't sure?!

Definitely all fronts.

We'll find out in two weeks and two days. A spec tire would have made this double expense and discussion, moot.....Just sayin'

[Garey Guzman]

Old saying:
"He sure likes the sound of his voice"

[reidhazelton]

Pirelli offered a tire that is in current use in Europe, but the BoD chose an unknown and not yet in production tire from Hoosier????

That makes even less sense than all the arguments against the Toyo.....

Your comments are largely inaccurate. The Hoosier radial has been in use in the pro series for a year. Also...4-5*? 3.5* max with most being around 3*. Puffery does little good for your cause and makes other claims suspicious and less credible. Let's stick to facts.Take some time to understand the situation and it will make a bit more sense.

[problemchild]

Your comments are largely inaccurate. The Hoosier radial has been in use in the pro series for a year. Also...4-5*? 3.5* max with most being around 3*. Puffery does little good for your cause and makes other claims suspicious and less credible. Let's stick to facts.Take some time to understand the situation and it will make a bit more sense.

Of course Reid's version is "the facts" and everybody else is a moron.

[marshall9]

Of course Reid's version is "the facts" and everybody else is a moron.

Greg,
I think he'll come around after he wins the Kentledge Cup at Road Atlanta on Toyos........facts can be perception sometimes. Reid is one of my favorite drivers and a good guy.

[SEComposites]

Whoah, hold on there. I'm going to win the Kentledge Cup!

[andyllc]

Whoah, hold on there. I'm going to win the Kentledge Cup!

Careful, you wanted to crucify me when I even mentioned the word winning and the Kentledge Cup. Remember, it is just supposed to be a fun Sunday drive, who cares about winning, we all know Ron Dennis won't be there watching.

[SEComposites]

Careful, you wanted to crucify me when I even mentioned the word winning and the Kentledge Cup. Remember, it is just supposed to be a fun Sunday drive, who cares about winning, we all know Ron Dennis won't be there watching.

Can we count you in then!? 2nd place is still up for grabs
The more BS'ing the better.

[andyllc]

No you can't. I get one more weekend off this year and it is to run a marathon. Currently my engine is in pieces in Maryland, my transmission (or parts of it) are on their way to Texas, my shocks are on their way to New York. Plus, I enjoy when I get to be on track with my Dad. He has Honda's so he isn't allowed in your clique.

[reidhazelton]

Of course Reid's version is "the facts" and everybody else is a moron.

So this tire has never been used or produced and needs 4-5* of camber? Seems you've missed this whole thread, and others, that I've started about spec tires and asked for input, then tried to rely only that which is verified.

Thanks for putting words in my mouth. Good for you. As for differing opinions, if you knew me even a little you'd know I'm the first to try to understand the other side. Misleading and disingenuous comments are another thing. This whole spec tire is "the otherside" to me. I dont want one yet for the good of the class I am pushing for. Simply because I'd diasgree with a view point would not make me declare stupidity from the other side. Maybe thats more your style.

[reidhazelton]

Greg,
I think he'll come around after he wins the Kentledge Cup at Road Atlanta on Toyos........facts can be perception sometimes. Reid is one of my favorite drivers and a good guy.

Oh...I'm "around" my man. Who started this whole spec tire thing this time? Ive been around. Like I said, personally I dont want a spec tire. This is for the good of the class as others seem to be greatly in favor. The Hoosier is the option. I had nothing to do with that being our choice aside from helping it be that we actually have a choice. Because I don't want to throw the baby out with the bath water doesnt mean I am for or agaisnt anything. Of anyone in SCCA that i know of, this rule hurts me most. I beleive this is the best option and gets things closer to what the class desires. It's not perfect but it's a hell of a start. Toyo or Hoosier, personally I couldnt care less. I dont like either option. I just want to finish what is started.

Thank you for the praise. Much appreciated. Ill pay you the endorsement fee when I meet you!

[Daryl DeArman]

Toyo or Hoosier, personally I couldnt care less. I dont like either option. I just want to finish what is started.

If I had Bernie Sanders 2016 avatar, would you find it suspect if I said, "Trump, Bush, or Sanders I couldn't care less?"

[BWC54]

If I had a Barry Sanders 2016 avatar, would you find it suspect if I said, "Trump, Bush, or Sanders I couldn't care less?"

You mean Bernie Sanders? If we elect Bernie Sanders we can probably get free tires every race from the government at the expense of the tax payer. Hey, wait a minute that's me.