Spec Tire Poll... again.

[John Robinson II]

Jim,
I think you need to put a set of radials on YOUR car, even used ones, and try them before you have to make all these changes and see how much, if any, your times change.
I don't think running the radial with less camber than optimal is a safety issue.

[swiftdrivr]

John,
I talked to Doug at Fast Forward, and he felt the rocker arm cars might not need as much camber to make the tires work, but he hadn't tested them on anything but the latest Piper, if I understood correctly. As it has been a bad year for me, with the motor having to have an unscheduled rebuild, I still have 3 sets of new 45s and only 2 more races to burn them in. After that, I plan to test the radial without any setup changes. If the tire temps are poor, I'll adjust until I need new parts to adjust with, then decide if further gains are worth the money. It really isn't me I'm concerned with, as per this discussion. If I need to modify, I will be able to get the parts, and probably do the work myself. There are new guys, driving older / less popular cars, who may not have access to the parts they would need, or the expertise / cash to get the changes made. I'd like to keep them racing with us. I don't think switching to radials helps us do that.

[problemchild]

Scott Andrews may be the best FF/F1600 racer on the planet today. He ran his first race on the Toyos on Saturday.

Said an elated Andrews. "The Toyo tire is so much fun to drive on. The car moves around a lot and the driver makes all the difference and that's the style of racing I really enjoy. I am really happy to get the win and my Exclusive Autosport Spectrum was perfect all day."

[BWC54]

Scott Andrews may be the best FF/F1600 racer on the planet today. He ran his first race on the Toyos on Saturday.

Said an elated Andrews. "The Toyo tire is so much fun to drive on. The car moves around a lot and the driver makes all the difference and that's the style of racing I really enjoy. I am really happy to get the win and my Exclusive Autosport Spectrum was perfect all day."

He has also mastered one of the things you need to be a pro driver today. Get the sponsor's names in the interview and give them praise.

[problemchild]

He won by 11 seconds over a pro team mate in an identical car. Apparently it was actually his second weekend on the tires. Discredit his comments if you want, but the cream rises to the top, just like it does on any tire. It seems that the people who have not tried the tires are afraid of them. People that have tried them seem to adapt to them without problem. Having the best teams and drivers continue to win, while everyone saves money, can only be a good thing.

[SEComposites]

It is extraordinary that the Canadian series can run on the Toyo's and we can't. I guess people like spending money unnecessarily. I'm out of this thread!

[Michael Rand]

Seems to me it is really about at track support and sales/service.
I have yet to see anyone selling and servicing Toyos at any race or track I have been to in the last, oh, I don't know, ....EVER !!!!!

[Steve Bamford]

Seems to me it is really about at track support and sales/service.
I have yet to see anyone selling and servicing Toyos at any race or track I have been to in the last, oh, I don't know, ....EVER !!!!!

Surprisingly the Canadians have been just getting by with distributors supporting this type of tire year after year. Keep in mind we have less then 10 percent the population you do in the U.S. Yet our fields are larger then the SCCA's on average by double and our premier event is larger then the Runoffs have been so to say the Toyo doesn't work without having track support is totally absurd.

It is hard for many south of the border to understand because the tire becomes much less of a consumable then they currently do. Take belts as an example, they are a consumable however I have never seen track side support for them. I know this isn't a perfect example however you need to start thinking upon the same lines as this.

[Garey Guzman]

Despite the pros (and cons) of the Toyo, bottom line is that it's not an option for 2016. Period. End of discussion. Our choice is to support or rebuke the choice given by SCCA for 2016.

That said, there is nothing to prevent competitors from seeking to change the spec tire for 2017 or 2018.

BTW, not to be a smarta$$ but I had to buy belts at the track this year! Thanks to Trackside Tim!

[Steve Bamford]

Despite the pros (and cons) of the Toyo, bottom line is that it's not an option for 2016. Period. End of discussion. Our choice is to support or rebuke the choice given by SCCA for 2016.

That said, there is nothing to prevent competitors from seeking to change the spec tire for 2017 or 2018.

BTW, not to be a smarta$$ but I had to buy belts at the track this year! Thanks to Trackside Tim!

You are right on the choice for 2016. It's not that bad I am simply trying to clarify info from someone who has actually competed with the different options out there as many are providing info not knowing the entire story.

And yes you can buy belts at some of the tracks but it is not requirement of the company selling belts to the SCCA that they need to be there. That was sorta my point.

[DanW]

Seems to me it is really about at track support and sales/service.
I have yet to see anyone selling and servicing Toyos at any race or track I have been to in the last, oh, I don't know, ....EVER !!!!!

Out here on the Left Coast they do. The also mounted my American Racers on a Saturday afternoon after the Hoosier/AR dealer headed for the hotel.

http://www.aimtire.com/typ_category....&ObjectID=6650

Regards,
Dan

[SEComposites]

Six Formula F races on Toyo's - $660
Six Formula F races on Hoosiers - $2400
Definitely my last post

[Roux]

We should aim for one more change, maybe a year from now? Hoosier could take up the challenge (or not) to close the documented gap betweent the R60 radial and the Toyo from a "cost per year to run without tire excuses" point of view, and camber and rain use and ....

the next survey might ask:

Is ideal camber settings beyond 4 degrees OK with you and your car?
Rain Tire separate or mandated as identical?
how important is track support?

etc

since we have one round of this rule changing under our belts we might be better at it the next time. We do need a tire company to be committed to supply (not support at the track necessarily) us what we need. Not sure where Toyo stands on that. Why did they not step up?

One more Hoosier variant might be interesting. R99 compund with treads?

[Tom Valet]

You guys pushing the Toyo's are not wrong, you are just missing the point. They are not an option for 2016 or maybe not ever, for all the reasons that have been discussed. Period. So why are we arguing about this?

Right now we have the worst of all worlds, no spec tire. The Hoosiers are not ideal but they are better than an open tire rule. So if we can't have a long lasting street tire like the Toyo, let's at least get a tire rule in place and work from there.

With the radial approved as the spec tire, we can get the Club R60 approved for regional racing in 2016 and then lobby for it as a National tire as well for 2017. We could also work with SCCA and/or Hoosier on a better tire for the future if there are better options. None of that will be possible if we don't at least get a tire rule in place. Vote down the tire rule now and there will never be a tire rule in FF of any kind for a loooong time.

[John LaRue]

Based upon all of the information available to the FSRAC and CRB I believe that the proper option has been put before the BOD. This "back and forth" however on essentially non-issue(s) is noise that makes the BOD and others reluctant to make any changes to the status quo and in fact paralyzes growth and development of the classes, rules and the club itself.

Novak indicated that the internet chatter and surveys aren't considered in the rule making process; I would not go that far. While this is not as significant and does not carry the weight of a formal letter which is put into the system, or the response to a survey or WDYT letter sent out by the Club, it is something of a barometer of the political climate that some of the decision makers may consider. Think carefully before you add to the noise, you might get what you ask for.

John

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[Max Power]

Am I missing something obvious? The part numbers for the spec tire are not the same as the pro tire.


FRONT Pro Spec
Dry 43321 43322
Wet 44421 44421

REAR Pro Spec
Dry 43326 43327
Wet 44426 44426


Does that mean guys cannot run both pro and club events on the same tire?

[Raceworks]

Am I missing something obvious? The part numbers for the spec tire are not the same as the pro tire.


FRONT Pro Spec
Dry 43321 43322
Wet 44421 44421

REAR Pro Spec
Dry 43326 43327
Wet 44426 44426


Does that mean guys cannot run both pro and club events on the same tire?

Given that they're the same tire except for the markings that seems to be a tad silly.

[Steve Bamford]

Wouldn't they be a different tire as the Pro tire has contingencies & would be more money. I don't believe the Pro Series would want a racer to use the club tire in the Pro Series and not cover the cost of the contingencies.

[problemchild]

You guys pushing the Toyo's are not wrong, you are just missing the point. They are not an option for 2016 or maybe not ever, for all the reasons that have been discussed. Period. So why are we arguing about this?
.

Because dozens of people will be voting against the spec tire proposed, who are in favor of the spec tire concept but feel that SCCA has just ran an "end around" play. Of course, SCCA will find away to only let the appropriate people vote and make it happen in the end, just driving away people to other groups and organizations, and turning what should be a great positive into a negative.

[swiftdrivr]

John,
The chatter has one common thread, which is that WE WANT A SPEC TIRE. My contention that the spec tire should fit at least most of the cars currently running, and therefore decrease the risk of losing competitors, at least to me seems reasonable and obtainable. The tire is already in production, by the manufacturer who "won" the bid. If there is data that suggest the majority of FFs currently running [all of us. not just the majority of FFs currently running the Majors series] are okay with modifying their cars, that would be data worth releasing. As it stands, it looks like almost every car I run with will require modification to run this tire. A new tire in 2017, that says "we made you spend the money, but now you didn't need to" isn't going to make the SCCA look very good, to anyone. It makes no sense at all to put out a spec tire rule that makes a large percentage of FF drivers spend a lot of money, and do a lot of work, and then reverse course a year later. That is too late; the money is spent, and the people who left are unlikely to come back. It will certainly make people angry, though. It should be done right the first time. The "fix-it-later" theory really doesn't appear likely to work.

[Tom Valet]

Because dozens of people will be voting against the spec tire proposed, who are in favor of the spec tire concept but feel that SCCA has just ran an "end around" play. Of course, SCCA will find away to only let the appropriate people vote and make it happen in the end, just driving away people to other groups and organizations, and turning what should be a great positive into a negative.

Greg, nobody on this website has any idea how many people who wrote to SCCA wanted the Toyo versus another tire. Lots of people dont want the Toyo. Lots of people who want the Toyo but know we cant have it are happy to have the Pro tire as an option. The poll on this site is almost evenly split between those who want the Toyo and those who want the Hoosier Pro tire. So the idea that NOBODY wants the Pro tire and EVERYONE wants the Toyo but SCCA is screwing us with an "end run" is way off base.

[problemchild]

Greg, nobody on this website has any idea how many people who wrote to SCCA wanted the Toyo versus another tire. Lots of people dont want the Toyo. Lots of people who want the Toyo but know we cant have it are happy to have the Pro tire as an option. The poll on this site is almost evenly split between those who want the Toyo and those who want the Hoosier Pro tire. So the idea that NOBODY wants the Pro tire and EVERYONE wants the Toyo but SCCA is screwing us with an "end run" is way off base.

Who said everybody? When there is a 50-50 split, then it means that there needs to be a compromise solution. Hoosier is more than capable of making a compromise tire but they don't want to. SCCA said OK, whatever Hoosier wants will be the spec tire. By the time that everybody buys new rains and spec tires (different part # than pro of course) ...... the FF community will have spent more in one year than 10 years with Toyo. This was just a power play move by some powerful SCCA politicians to get their vision, and not the membership's vision. I am the most passionate supporter of the spec tire format but give this proposal a thumbs down and urge people not to support it.

[Roland V. Johnson]

The worst of all possible worlds is a bad, expensive spec tire!

[Tom Valet]

I give up, I really do. Now its a conspiracy to screw the members out of what they want.

We are trying to accomplish something in the REAL world where things dont always go 100% the way you want them to and where you dont always get what you want but you try to make things as best as they can be.

[problemchild]

The worst of all possible worlds is a bad, expensive spec tire!

Hoosier does not make bad tires. Hoosier makes awesome tires. I have nothing against them. They are using their political power to make money. SCCA needs to tell them to make a more suitable tire or not be the supplier.

For someone to do 1 FF race, they will need to spend $2500. One set of rains, one set of drys, and a spare front and rear dry tire.

While this is better than an open tire, it is a different world than $700 for 4-5 races worth of tire. Because you cannot get blood from a stone, nor force FF racers without cashflow to buy $2500 worth of tires, the net result will be sending racers to other racing organizations or staying home.

[Tom Valet]

Within the first few months of the season, they will have spent that much or more with the open tire rule. For a lot of racers, they will have spent MUCH more.

Unless you are saying people will just drive around on their old hard worn tires, in which case they can do the same with the new, cheaper tires, only they can drive around for even longer.

[Tim Webb]

Since when did did we have an open tire rule.

Hoosier is the only game in town (if you want at run near the front). Cost is stupid. Life is short.

Why not just poke a stick in your eye. The toyo is ready and willing. Cheap and lasts.

[Tom Valet]

Since when did did we have an open tire rule.

Hoosier is the only game in town (if you want at run near the front). Cost is stupid. Life is short.

Why not just poke a stick in your eye. The toyo is ready and willing. Cheap and lasts.

Toyo is ready and willing. I guess I missed that part.

Please tell us in concrete terms how you are going to get the Toyo tire in place as a National spec tire in SCCA. Have you even spoken with anyone at SCCA? Have you spoken with Toyo? Have you spoken with Hoosier? I didnt think so.

Please stop posting inane comments like the Toyo is awesome and we can just blink our eyes and they will be the SCCA spec tire. It doesnt work like that.

[problemchild]

Within the first few months of the season, they will have spent that much or more with the open tire rule. For a lot of racers, they will have spent MUCH more.

Who are "they"? Are there 1 or 2 dozen serious racers who do Majors events and will spend all that money? I thought atleast the top dozen were getting tire sponsorship. I was assuming that these people will just adjust to the process that was best for the 10-15 next dozens of racers who don't have that money to spend and would like to race more often.

The same argument is going on in FV. Do you cater to the 10 % that are currently buying most of the tires, or the 90% who only buy tires when they are forced to.

[problemchild]

Toyo is ready and willing. I guess I missed that part.

Please tell us in concrete terms how you are going to get the Toyo tire in place as a National spec tire in SCCA. Have you even spoken with anyone at SCCA? Have you spoken with Toyo? Have you spoken with Hoosier? I didnt think so.

Please stop posting inane comments like the Toyo is awesome and we can just blink our eyes and they will be the SCCA spec tire. It doesnt work like that.

Go online with a credit card and you will have them on your doorstep in 3 days. What could be simpler?

One sentence will write a rule if that is what the FF community wants.

As I indicated, I am in favor of telling Hoosier to build a compromise tire. I would support leaving the "open" tire if having a spec tire means telling 100+ racers that they need to spend $2500 to start the season so that a dozen guys will save $5K a year.

[andyllc]

Hoosier does not make bad tires. Hoosier makes awesome tires. I have nothing against them. They are using their political power to make money. SCCA needs to tell them to make a more suitable tire or not be the supplier.

For someone to do 1 FF race, they will need to spend $2500. One set of rains, one set of drys, and a spare front and rear dry tire.

While this is better than an open tire, it is a different world than $700 for 4-5 races worth of tire. Because you cannot get blood from a stone, nor force FF racers without cashflow to buy $2500 worth of tires, the net result will be sending racers to other racing organizations or staying home.

Greg,
Very real question. Of the top 8 finishers in Canada on a regular basis, how many of them put on a new set of Toyo's each weekend? I am not asking about 15th place and I am not asking about what one 'could' do. Genuinely, the top 8 drivers....one new set per event?
I know when I ran in Canada we had Hankook's and we had one new set each race.
I understand about the need for rains with Hoosiers and all that, I get it. Just really want to know if the top guys up there are putting on a new set each event.

[problemchild]

Greg,
Very real question. Of the top 8 finishers in Canada on a regular basis, how many of them put on a new set of Toyo's each weekend? I am not asking about 15th place and I am not asking about what one 'could' do. Genuinely, the top 8 drivers....one new set per event?
I know when I ran in Canada we had Hankook's and we had one new set each race.
I understand about the need for rains with Hoosiers and all that, I get it. Just really want to know if the top guys up there are putting on a new set each event.

We have only run part time for the last two years, so there could be someone who does that but I am unaware of anybody. I think the fast guys are doing 3-4 weekends, perhaps less with the "monster" test days that are available (3 hrs tracktime/day). You generally never see "stickers" during a race event. As I have recounted several times, when Steve was setting record pole times last fall, he had 2014 rears, 2013 LF, and 2012 RF.

AFAIK, the Toyos get changed when they get worn out. One at a time. That was our approach.

[Tom Valet]

Who are "they"? Are there 1 or 2 dozen serious racers who do Majors events and will spend all that money? I thought atleast the top dozen were getting tire sponsorship. I was assuming that these people will just adjust to the process that was best for the 10-15 next dozens of racers who don't have that money to spend and would like to race more often.

There are no tire sponsorships in FF that I know of anymore. We had one, not any more. If there are it would be limited to Kautz and Reid because of their past relationship and past performance.

Go online with a credit card and you will have them on your doorstep in 3 days. What could be simpler?

One sentence will write a rule if that is what the FF community wants.

The question I asked was, how are you going to get that one sentence in place? Lay it out for us in a way that demonstrates we can easily accomplish what you want. Not talking about the end result and pretending it will happen just because you want it to. Real world, how are you going to go about getting the Toyo or some other yet-to-be-made tire in place in the SCCA? And please dont answer with "if everyone writes a letter, we can make it happen." Because like it or not (and I dont like it) that is not enough in the SCCA but there is nothing you can do about it.

[AVR_Shane]

We have only run part time for the last two years, so there could be someone who does that but I am unaware of anybody. I think the fast guys are doing 3-4 weekends, perhaps less with the "monster" test days that are available (3 hrs tracktime/day). You generally never see "stickers" during a race event. As I have recounted several times, when Steve was setting record pole times last fall, he had 2014 rears, 2013 LF, and 2012 RF.

AFAIK, the Toyos get changed when they get worn out. One at a time. That was our approach.

I'll second what Greg said here. We ran two 2012 Pipers last year near the top of the field, and we changed tires every third weekend, and that's with doing the optional test days. I know that many of the top drivers prefer to have the tire in different states at different tracks.

I won't mention names, but one (race winning) driver said that at Mosport he prefers a tire almost out of tread (4-5 weekends on it), while at Calabogie, which is a more technical track, he prefers a tire with just a couple heat cycles on it. It's probably all in his head, but the point is the tires don't wear out until they are completely out of tread.

[problemchild]

There are no tire sponsorships in FF that I know of anymore. We had one, not any more. If there are it would be limited to Kautz and Reid because of their past relationship and past performance.



The question I asked was, how are you going to get that one sentence in place? Lay it out for us in a way that demonstrates we can easily accomplish what you want. Not talking about the end result and pretending it will happen just because you want it to. Real world, how are you going to go about getting the Toyo or some other yet-to-be-made tire in place in the SCCA? And please dont answer with "if everyone writes a letter, we can make it happen." Because like it or not (and I dont like it) that is not enough in the SCCA but there is nothing you can do about it.

You never said what you thought the ratio of serious Runoff racers to other racers was. I thought I was being generous with 2 dozen serious racers and a conservative with 100+ other.

I think Todd Butler and John LaRue is who you should ask that question to. I think they can work the system to get any outcome they want. IMO, a fair open vote would result in a narrow margin of choice for either Hoosier or Toyo, and that would disenfranchise a significant portion of racers. Ramming the Hoosier through uncontested with a vote of Majors only racers will be even worse. The only viable option, again in my opinion only, is to convince Hoosier to build a compromise tire.

[Tom Valet]

I will not speak for either Todd or John, but my bet is they will answer that you go through the process that we have just gone through. Why would you think that going through the same process again would result in anything different than the first time?

[Tom Valet]

You never said what you thought the ratio of serious Runoff racers to other racers was. I thought I was being generous with 2 dozen serious racers and a conservative with 100+ other.

There are less than 2 dozen serious runoffs contenders, that's easy to see. But your ratios are way off. Do you think the guys up front are the only ones slapping on new tires for every race? Most guys from front to rear put on new tires because as things stand now new mean faster regardless of where you are on the grid. When we ran regionals we would see more guys on stickers than anywhere else.

[Steve Bamford]

There are less than 2 dozen serious runoffs contenders, that's easy to see. But your ratios are way off. Do you think the guys up front are the only ones slapping on new tires for every race? Most guys from front to rear put on new tires because as things stand now new mean faster regardless of where you are on the grid. When we ran regionals we would see more guys on stickers than anywhere else.

And the recommended tire Tom will be the same its people putting new tires on per race weekend. We are all using the allowed 6 tires in a Pro weekend and would use 8 over the 4 sessions if we were allowed.

As I have said many times the tire is not a bad option, much better then the open rule and better then the previous R45 Pro tire that hits a cliff fast. These tires do not fall off as fast but they are not optimum and Hoosier could build us something better which would please more then less.

[swiftdrivr]

Does anyone even know the denominator here? How many SCCA FF racers are active? How many run cars built after, say 2005? How many who would need to buy new suspensions are okay with doing that to get a spec tire? Does anyone have any actual numbers?

[John LaRue]

The only reason in my opinion that this proposal has made it this far is because it was driven by letters from the membership. With the influx of letters last fall the FSRAC took up the issue and decided to investigate. The process of securing a spec tire first required the FSRAC to determine the proper criteria for identifying a tire that would best serve the FF racers. Letters submitted to the SCCA, survey results and other sources were employed to accomplish this end.

Once the criteria was determined and it was agreed that a spec tire would be appropriate, the club then had to reach out to manufacturers to determine if they were interested in becoming a supplier. Obviously, as has been stated earlier, the supplier has to be committed to supplying tires to adequately cover the FF field. From what I understand, RFP's were sent out to all known manufacturers. I have confirmed that Toyo received and acknowledged the RFP, but did not submit a proposal. Regardless of how great these tires may be they are a non-issue in this discussion. The Club would not adopt a spec tire without entering into an agreement which will insure the supply of said tire.

FWIW, the SCCA survey results provided that 78.7% favored adoption of a radial tire; 62.7% did not want a "universal" tire that could be used in the wet or the dry.

If you are concerned about the number of tires utilized during an event then send a letter into the system requesting that the number of tires be limited to "X". FYI - 56.5% favored limiting the number of tires, the majority favored a 6 tire limit.