Spec Tire Poll... again.

[SpacemanSpiff]

I don't have a stake in FF so my input is probably of little real value. That said, the testing issue to me would be somewhat secondary to ongoing use.

I guess it's different if running a "pro" schedule across a bunch of tracks and with frequent new cars, but when (if?) I get to race it'll be either SFR or NER, each with a handful of tracks. A bit of testing I'd have a pretty good idea of what I'd want at each. You might have to keep two sets of tires/wheels which is a bit more expensive, but isn't an ongoing expense.

[SEComposites]

What's the deal with the camber these tires seem to require? IF some cars can't get the required camber then won't we be back at square one with limited grid size just for different reasons?

[M.Sauce]

Does anyone have info about whether or not Toyo supports club events. I have found it difficult in Texas to get the Toyo race tire unless they are ordered from tire rack which means no service at the track. To me that is an issue. I am a Goodyear and Hoosier tire dealer and I service every race in the Southwest Division.. I have tried to get Toyo's for the NASA events I have covered. In Texas it is not easy to get the Toyo's. If they would come up with a decent distribution system I would be ok with the Toyo. The Toyo's won't help the older cars either because of camber limitations. I am not sure what kind of camber the Toyo needs but I am not in favor of making older cars go away because they have to modify suspension.

[Tom Duncan]

Ah, I see. Lets just hope people understand the real prize here is the establishment of a spec tire rule. Once we get it in place we can hammer out what tire is the best but I think the Hoosier as proposed is a very good compromise.

Tom

[recaryob]

Regardless of what tire would be your ultimate pick, until that manufacturer puts forth a proposal to SCCA, for that specific tire, there is little point in even rallying support for that brand/model. If you know someone or have an in with that manufacturer, then get working on it. It's just how the proposal process works with SCCA.

[Tom Duncan]

Derek, et al, I'm confused.

Hasn't a proposal to the members been done with this issue of Fastrack?

Shouldn't we stop discussing which tire and get behind getting this rule in place? We can hammer out the good/bad of the tire choice as we go along next year, lets get the rule now.

Tom

[swiftdrivr]

After they have already dictated a tire that cost many people more money than they wish to put out just to run, changing the rule next year doesn't help much. The racers either have already shelled out the cash, or quit the series. Certainly not what I was hoping for. I will modify my car [but lose a race weekend], but I fear many will choose not to, or be unable to afford to. This may be a great tire, but it's a really poor choice, in my opinion. Still shocked that this is what the BOD chose to do. Hoosier already makes an R60 that fits every existing FF in the country, is cheap, last a long time, and is well proven. Dictating a different R60 that will drive away competitors seems a really bad idea. Perhaps marginally better than the open rule, but not by much.

[Roux]

for the rule as proposed

#17620

Steve

[Tom Valet]

Jim, I hear you, us having a Swift we are in the same boat as you. I too would have much preferred a bias ply tire and made the point to Bruce Foss when we spoke last year the if they wanted, Hoosier could have the contract for every SCCA FF class if they went with the R60 or built a non cantilever R60 tire. For whatever reason, this is the tire they went with, likely because it is what Pro wanted (a radial). Not ideal, as you say, but better than an open tire rule.

[SEComposites]

So what cars will need modifying to be able to run this new tire. Every pre-99 car? Every pre-95 car? I honestly don't know if these tires do need more camber than is available on a large number of chassis. Can someone confirm this? If, and it's a big 'if' this is the case then adopting the new Hoosier tire could be catastrophic for the class. Well the class within the SCCA of course.

[swiftdrivr]

Hoosier's own data and the Pro series confirm the need for heavy camber [3-4 degrees, I think], as I understand it. My car won't make it, [A-Arms and new drive shafts, aquired from ????] I hear that Reid and Adam's monoshock VD 92?s won't make it [and will cost more than mine to convert as he will need new pull rods]. I don't know what other cars will need modification, or who is going to make parts for the rare cars if they can't get the camber

[chrisH]

Here is the tire data link from Hoosier for the 2015 pro-tire:

http://f1600series.com/competitors/9...tire-data.html

Looks like Hoosier recommended -2.5 to -3.5 in the front and -1.5 to -2.5 in the rear. Where the guys running this tire in 2015 ended up on camber, they'll have to answer that.

90.4% of the drivers polled favored a spec tire, including myself. Switching to a radial will affect me as a Swift driver. But we'll figure it out if I want to race. And I think a lot of us, including myself, could find a few more tenths improving our driving before worrying about whether that extra -1 degree of camber cost us the win.

Maybe I'm just being optimistic, but I think implementing the spec tire rule is a step in the right direction. And if the radial is what the majority wants, then so be it. I'll still be at the track in 2016 figuring out how to make the radials work. Isn't that half the fun?

Chris Horan

[CF56]

Letter # 17621 sent in favor.

[swiftdrivr]

It would be interesting to know if the BOD has any data on how many FFs currently running in SCCA will require modification to use the BOD's choice for our spec tire.

[Todd Butler]

For the record, the process worked like this…

Once CRB forwarded the FSRAC recommendation up to Club Racing, they took the ball and ran. To their credit they ran an RFP to attempt to get competitive pricing. Only 2 tire vendors responded, Hoosier and one other and Toyo was *not* one of them. The RFP basically laid out a set of parameters we were looking for (criteria from the poll), it gave some idea of numbers (cars/tires), and it asked for pricing with and without contingencies.

Paying contingencies cost money. It adds $5-10 dollars per tire for cost and there is SCCA office resources involved as well. BoD is quite comfortable with cost recovery if we have to track contingencies to avoid having 60K members supporting staff payroll tracking a handful of FF or SM or SRF drivers who may be getting tire contingencies.

As a side note, BoD is generally of the opinion that cost recovery for contract management and contingencies at National is OK, but spec tires are not to be cash cows for National. Also many on the BoD feel that if a spec tire is designated for a club racing class there should be no contingencies to keep the cost lower and to avoid having all the racers in that class from subsidizing the guys at the point end winning free tires. Realize also that there are current tire contracts, contracts under negotiation, and future contracts, so this particular philosophy (implementation) is not consistent at this point in time.

BTW Any final deal with Hoosier is predicated on BoD approval in October. No BoD approval, no contract and no spec tire for 2016.

Todd Butler
Area 13 Director

[BURKY]

63% for a tire not even being considered...

All these tire threads make my head hurt!

[Todd Butler]

It would be interesting to know if the BOD has any data on how many FFs currently running in SCCA will require modification to use the BOD's choice for our spec tire.

This has been brought up. It was/is a consideration. Couple of thoughts that likely will piss people off. At some point the class has to evolve. We can’t keep restricting technology to keep the oldest cars in class competitive. If that were the case we’d have no Hondas in FF and all our current Touring cars would be restricted to the speed of an MG TC. There are going to be some cars that can be modified for a relatively reasonable sum and some cars that will be a lot more expensive/extensive. Drivers will have to weigh the longer term cost/benefit of getting a spec tire rule out there vs short term, one time costs.

This one will hurt the ego (myself included!) but I'm also going to argue that not everybody is going to need to nail the optimum camber numbers to maximize performance to get race wins. If your older chassis can't get to -2.5 degrees negative camber, maybe -1.5 or -2.0 is good enough for your chassis and driving ability. Don't know. Again... drivers will have to weigh the longer term cost/benefit of getting a spec tire rule out there vs short term, one time costs.

Last Comment then I'm checking out of this till October BoD vote and tallying the CRB responses...

Hoosier proposed a specific tire. Club version of the same radial used very successfully in the Pro 1600 series. I'm guessing (emphasis guessing here) they did that because radials are the way they as a company want to go and because proposing a compound only in conventional and radial formats would be a PITA to manufacture and support at the track.

Todd Butler
Area 13 Director

[swiftdrivr]

I think pretty much everyone agrees we need a spec tire. However, it appears we are given a choice between a spec tire that has big up front costs for many, and may drive away competitors, or no spec tire. I am not sure why we have to choose only between a tire that Hoosier may wish to sell us, but that isn't [IMO] what we need, or continueing as is. I haven't heard anything good about the perilli option, because I never heard anything about it at all. If the excuse for selling us the Pro tire is that perilli would have gotten the contract otherwise, shouldn't we have at least heard what Perilli was offering? Is there some reason that the R60 isn't an option? It seems a poll of the tire choices actually available should have been done. Sure, all the Toyo guys might have voted for the radial, and that would mean they intended to modify their cars and keep raceing, and that would have been fine. What if they felt the expence was too much, and they voted for the R60? It appears that that data was not sought, once the Toyo tire was found to be not available due to them not submitting a bid. I think it should have been.

[Steve Bamford]

If this radial tire becomes spec tire then someone better make a proposal to the CRB right now to increase min weights by 10 lbs as the Pro Series did to compensate for the extra weight of these tires verses the bias ply.

[Will Velkoff]

If this radial tire becomes spec tire then someone better make a proposal to the CRB right now to increase min weights by 10 lbs as the Pro Series did to compensate for the extra weight of these tires verses the bias ply.

Agreed.

And for the Swift people complaining about the camber...go crank in as much as you can and run the damn thing if you don't want to spend the money to modify some parts.

This is definitely a more cost effective outcome than doing the $1000 gumballs every weekend.

I'm excited to try out the radial and work on dialing the car back in. Also happy I won't have to be swapping cantilevered rears anymore

[Tom Valet]

Todd, thank you for your posts, exactly the kind of info members of the class need to know but so often never receive.

[Steve Bamford]

Todd, thank you for your posts, exactly the kind of info members of the class need to know but so often never receive.

Agreed. It helps us understand a little more of the process. Wish there was more of that.

[Brian C in Az]

What's the deal with the camber these tires seem to require? IF some cars can't get the required camber then won't we be back at square one with limited grid size just for different reasons?

The Toyo tire does not require 3.5 to 5 degrees of negative camber as the Hoosier radial did in the test.
We consistently have 15 to 24 cars at each event with our Toyo tire spec rule.
1970's Zinks, Crosle's, DB-1's, late 70's V.D.'s through 90's V.D.'s, 90's Pipers, etc

Does anyone have info about whether or not Toyo supports club events. I have found it difficult in Texas to get the Toyo race tire unless they are ordered from tire rack which means no service at the track. To me that I an issue. I am a Goodyear and Hoosier tire dealer and I service every race in the Southwest Division.. I have tried to get Toyo's for the NASA events I have covered. In Texas it is not easy to get the Toyo's. If they would come up with a decent distribution system I would be ok with the Toyo. The Toyo's won't help the older cars either because of camber limitations. I am not sure what kind of camber the Toyo needs but I am not in favor of making older cars go away because they have modify suspension.

The Canadians get excellent support plus Toyo gives every competitor some $$$
Call Jens, he can put you in touch with the people that can help you.

So what cars will need modifying to be able to run this new tire. Every pre-99 car? Every pre-95 car? I honestly don't know if these tires do need more camber than is available on a large number of chassis. Can someone confirm this? If, and it's a big 'if' this is the case then adopting the new Hoosier tire could be catastrophic for the class. Well the class within the SCCA of course.

As mentioned previously and in the other threads on this topic, the Toyo tires works the same across the board from early 70's Formula Fords to modern Pipers and everything in between. The Hoosier radial is the only tire that requires extreme negative camber to work and that means modifying most cars.

[reidhazelton]

What is the difference in required camber between the wet and the dry tires for the Hoosier radial?

[recaryob]

Derek, et al, I'm confused.

Hasn't a proposal to the members been done with this issue of Fastrack?

Shouldn't we stop discussing which tire and get behind getting this rule in place? We can hammer out the good/bad of the tire choice as we go along next year, lets get the rule now.

Tom

Nope, your right. My apologies, I didnt see the minutes from the Aug 4th meeting. That's exactly what I was told was gonna happen over a month ago. Main reason bring, hardly any other manufactures made proposals.

Not what would have been my pick, but certainly better than the current situation.

Andy, let's talk if this goes through, I am pretty sure we can obtain the needed camber without expensive mods.

[Brian C in Az]

I think pretty much everyone agrees we need a spec tire. However, it appears we are given a choice between a spec tire that has big up front costs for many, and may drive away competitors, or no spec tire. ....

Why are so many people saying that it has to be Hoosier or nothing at all?
The polls clearly showed that the Toyo tire is prefered by 2 to 1 over the Hoosier.
Let's get on with the Toyo tire, it has worked well for the Canadians, why do you doubt that it will work here?

Sure, all the Toyo guys might have voted for the radial, and that would mean they intended to modify their cars and keep raceing, and that would have been fine. What if they felt the expence was too much, and they voted for the R60? It appears that that data was not sought, once the Toyo tire was found to be not available due to them not submitting a bid. I think it should have been.

What do you mean that Toyo did not submit a bid? What do you mean that it is not available? It is hard to believe that Toyo would support the Canadian series as well as they do and have, yet not submit a bid for the US market. Doesn't sound right, or logical...

[swiftdrivr]

Brian,
I'm sure if Toyo had submitted a propasal, and the BOD said it didn't, that would get out pretty fast. As it appears they didn't, perhaps they felt they couldn't cover the entire SCCA need, and still make money. I don't know. I don't know how the offer was placed, or the wording / specs that made them decide not to bid. I don't know the data on how many crs would require modification, but I supect it is high. Most of our cars are not new, I suspect, and few are going to buy a new Spectrum and join SCCA club racing. New competitors generally arrive in old, used cars, not new or even nearly new equipment. However, as much as I don't like a tire that I feel is likely to cost us competitors, to some degree I guess we should be happy someone is willing to make us a tire at all. I will recoup the expence in 2-3 seasons. What really hurts is the guys who will just park their cars. As it sits, it seems we have a take-it-or-leave-it proposition. If Hoosier is the only game in town, and they are only willing to sell us the radial, it seems we are stuck with it, if we want a spec tire. Will we lose more people with a spec tire that isn't a good fit, or with an open tire rule? I don't have any data to base my decision on, to tell you the truth, but that is the question at hand. Place your bets and spin the wheel.

[Garey Guzman]

I'm just going to go racing, knowing I'm going to spend less on tires, and be happy! I'll see what the future holds when I get there.

[-pru-]

Speaking from a somewhat outside point of view (I Solo my DB1, but would like to someday Club Race), what is the downside of allowing three FF spec tire options :

~ Hoosier R60 Radial (i.e. the FF1600 Pro Series tire)
~ Hoosier R60 Bias Ply (i.e. the current Club Ford tire)
~ Toyo R888

Seems to me that the R60 Radial (when fully optimized) would be the fastest of the three so those who what to run up front can use that option while others can utilize a tire (R60 Bias / R888) that does not require extensive set up changes.

If the reason against this idea is a SCCA/Hoosier contract type thing, then drop the Toyo from the list above.

Excuse me if this idea has already been proposed; I have been following these threads from a “what happens to the Hoosier R25B when the FF spec tire proposal is approved” point of view. That is, the R25 is nearly (95%+) the spec tire in Solo FF community. Avon calling?

[SEComposites]

The Pro-Series guys use 6 tires per weekend. Can someone explain to me how that is lowering tire costs please? You can't tell me that a well funded majors Formula F effort wouldn't do the same. Yes it's cheaper than 2 sets of R35's but that is not what we are looking for. Not even close.

[Tom Valet]

Why are so many people saying that it has to be Hoosier or nothing at all?
The polls clearly showed that the Toyo tire is prefered by 2 to 1 over the Hoosier.
Let's get on with the Toyo tire, it has worked well for the Canadians, why do you doubt that it will work here?

What do you mean that Toyo did not submit a bid? What do you mean that it is not available? It is hard to believe that Toyo would support the Canadian series as well as they do and have, yet not submit a bid for the US market. Doesn't sound right, or logical...

Brian, before SCCA is going to adopt a Spec Tire for the entire country, it needs a commitment from the tire manufacturer that it will ensure that its tires are available for all competitors at all races. It doesn't matter that there hasn't been a supply problem with the Toyos in the past, if the Toyos are to become the only tire allowed in the class, the manufacturer has to be on board and commit to ensuring tire availability. Apparently from what Todd Butler has told us, Toyo had no interest in making such a commitment and did not bid to become the spec tire supplier. So we can't just "get on with" it and adopt the Toyos, no matter how many people support it.

[BWC54]

The Pro-Series guys use 6 tires per weekend. Can someone explain to me how that is lowering tire costs please? You can't tell me that a well funded majors Formula F effort wouldn't do the same. Yes it's cheaper than 2 sets of R35's but that is not what we are looking for. Not even close.

The pro series runs 3 qualifying sessions and 3 races. The standard format for Majors is 1 qualifying session and 2 races so with the R60 compound lasting longer there is less benefit to putting on a sticker set for race 2. But there will be guys at majors that do that.
When I responded to the SCCA questionaire I said you should be allowed only 4 tires for a Major weekend. That would reduce the cost of a majors weekend but would add more work for SCCA to monitor. There are also guys at majors who show up with a semi rig and a race engineer. I can't afford a race engineer therefore they should be banned. I can't afford a semi rig therefore they should be banned.

Since we run in mixed groups, a lot of times with wings and things at regionals I'm glad they didn't choose a spec tire that slowed down FF much.

[Steve Bamford]

The pro series runs 3 qualifying sessions and 3 races. The standard format for Majors is 1 qualifying session and 2 races so with the R60 compound lasting longer there is less benefit to putting on a sticker set for race 2. But there will be guys at majors that do that.

Correction, 1 qualifying session of 30 mins & 3 races of 30 minute length with the 6 tire rule, which we ALL use the 6 tires. If someone says they don't they are the total exception to the rule.

There are two practice sessions on the Friday however these are done on different tires then weekend qualifying & races. I don't know of anyone not using new tires for Saturday qualifying other then perhaps a scrubbed set.

[BWC54]

Correction, 1 qualifying session of 30 mins & 3 races of 30 minute length.

Thanks Steve.

[SEComposites]

My thoughts at this point is that we should defer this for a year and see if Hoisier can make us a treaded long life tire. I realize I'm probably the only one though!!

[BWC54]

The polls clearly showed that the Toyo tire is prefered by 2 to 1 over the Hoosier.

SCCA probably gave more weight to their questionaire sent to participants than an Internet poll.

[Steve Bamford]

Brian, before SCCA is going to adopt a Spec Tire for the entire country, it needs a commitment from the tire manufacturer that it will ensure that its tires are available for all competitors at all races. It doesn't matter that there hasn't been a supply problem with the Toyos in the past, if the Toyos are to become the only tire allowed in the class, the manufacturer has to be on board and commit to ensuring tire availability. Apparently from what Todd Butler has told us, Toyo had no interest in making such a commitment and did not bid to become the spec tire supplier. So we can't just "get on with" it and adopt the Toyos, no matter how many people support it.

Toyo does not make sure they tires available at the track, that would be up to the distributor as Toyo has a different business model then Hoosier. The requirements from SCCA will never work unless Toyo changed their business model...why would they do that to sell FF tires? In the Canadian Series, and likely the other regions that use this tire, there is a distributor who handles the tires and track support.

The reality from my experience, is the tire cost is at minimum 5 to one if using the Hoosiers verses using the Toyo's based on heat cycles & drop off. How could Hoosier supply track support if they are going to sell 5 times less the amount of tires?

With that said, the spec tire proposed is better then the current situation. Some will love it, others will hate it, some will simply be split down the middle & make it work.

[BURKY]

The polls clearly showed that the Toyo tire is prefered by 2 to 1 over the Hoosier.

How many of those votes are from people actually competing in SCCA Races???

[EACIII]

I was told by someone running cars in the pro series he was running 5 degrees of camber in the fronts.

I checked my car already and can get to 4 degrees not problem, not sure about 5 yet. My concern is for those that have cars that can't be easily changed.

I read how the RFP process was done but came away still not clear. Was the SCCA requiring the tire company to pay them to be the spec tire or not?

Why can't we just see a copy of the RFP? It is our club isn't it? I have tried to find it with no luck.


Ed

[marshall9]

How many of those votes are from people actually competing in SCCA Races???

If it's about costs and car counts, the ones like me that aren't currently running SCCA, but would like to, might matter some as well, or not.