Spec Tire Poll... again.

[marshall9]

Time to get real guys.

SCCA is not going to spec a street radial for a formula class. Let's talk about REALISTIC choices of race slicks.

.

It's that kind of thinking that will kill FF completely in SCCA, as others continue to go elsewhere to race....it's time to get real guys

[recaryob]

As a soon to be new FF driver, and finding out the good news of the idea of a spec tire after I purchased my FF, the news of a spec tire has been of much interest to me. I have spoken with a few folks both within SCCA and a tire manufacturer. I would rather not post names as I am not even 100% sure they were given accurate information, but I was told by both sources that as of last month only two manufactures have submitted proposals to SCCA to be the spec tire for FF. Hoosier and Pirelli. No other manufactures have even submitted anything to SCCA or shown interest in being the spec tire for FF. I also heard the issue of Toyos being discontinued in the next year. However the bigger concern I have is availability. I have been hearing stories by guys in Canada how the Toyo can be on back order for several months at times. I believe, they are on back order right now. Though don't quote me on that.

My thought is that shouldn't we at least choose a tire manufacture that doesn't have the high probably of logistical supply issues? I for one would think that choosing an American Manufacturer would serve all of us best. There are a couple of choices. But in my understanding of how the approval process works, we can vote and take polls of what tires we want to use all we want, but unless the tire manufacturer themselves actually submits a proposal to SCCA, that manufacturer is not even in the running. I personally don't see one wouldn't want to make the Hoosier CF tire the choice They are already made, harder compound R60, and are already cheaper, but that is not the tire that hoosier submitted to SCCA. So unless we can talk the manufacturers into submitting the tire we want then to..........

As long as the chosen tire is a long term and cost effective choice, I will support any spec tire selected. However, there can be some draw backs to spec tires too. For example, In my opinion spec Miata was a great class when the toyo RA-1 was the spec tire. When they changed to the hoosier DOT radial, things got much more expensive. Sure the Hoosier spec tire was cheaper than other Hoosier DOT radials, but they were really only fast for 2-3 heat cycles. After that, new tires please. Some suggested it was the only way hoosier could make money selling a tire that cheap, requiring racers to buy them more often. The guys at the front in nationals were putting on new stickers every session, not weekend. So the spec tire actually made things more expensive. I am told the new hoosier for spec Miata doesn't have the same issues, but I cant speak on that. I have also been told, the Hoosier radial used in the pro FF series doesn't suffer from this either. But again, I have no personal experience. My point is that there are a number of concerns that should be considered when choosing a spec tire.

[reidhazelton]

As a soon to be new FF driver, and finding out the good news of the idea of a spec tire after I purchased my FF, the news of a spec tire has been of much interest to me. I have spoken with a few folks both within SCCA and a tire manufacturer. I would rather not post names as I am not even 100% sure they were given accurate information, but I was told by both sources that as of last month only two manufactures have submitted proposals to SCCA to be the spec tire for FF. Hoosier and Pirelli. No other manufactures have even submitted anything to SCCA or shown interest in being the spec tire for FF. I also heard the issue of Toyos being discontinued in the next year. However the bigger concern I have is availability. I have been hearing stories by guys in Canada how the Toyo can be on back order for several months at times. I believe, they are on back order right now. Though don't quote me on that.

My thought is that shouldn't we at least choose a tire manufacture that doesn't have the high probably of logistical supply issues? I for one would think that choosing an American Manufacturer would serve all of us best. There are a couple of choices. But in my understanding of how the approval process works, we can vote and take polls of what tires we want to use all we want, but unless the tire manufacturer themselves actually submits a proposal to SCCA, that manufacturer is not even in the running. I personally don't see one wouldn't want to make the Hoosier CF tire the choice They are already made, harder compound R60, and are already cheaper, but that is not the tire that hoosier submitted to SCCA. So unless we can talk the manufacturers into submitting the tire we want then to..........

As long as the chosen tire is a long term and cost effective choice, I will support any spec tire selected. However, there can be some draw backs to spec tires too. For example, In my opinion spec Miata was a great class when the toyo RA-1 was the spec tire. When they changed to the hoosier DOT radial, things got much more expensive. Sure the Hoosier spec tire was cheaper than other Hoosier DOT radials, but they were really only fast for 2-3 heat cycles. After that, new tires please. Some suggested it was the only way hoosier could make money selling a tire that cheap, requiring racers to buy them more often. The guys at the front in nationals were putting on new stickers every session, not weekend. So the spec tire actually made things more expensive. I am told the new hoosier for spec Miata doesn't have the same issues, but I cant speak on that. I have also been told, the Hoosier radial used in the pro FF series doesn't suffer from this either. But again, I have no personal experience. My point is that there are a number of concerns that should be considered when choosing a spec tire.

Thank you Derek. Welcome to FF.

[swiftdrivr]

Rumors abound, but facts are sketchy. I hear that the Toyo is not reliably available, and I hear that "pro-teams" don't run much camber with the Toyo. I spoke with Hoosier last year, and they told me they were perfectly willing to make an R60 on an R45 chassis, with the same tire sizes as we now run. I haven't any current info on whether that offer still stands. I hear some cars will require up to $5000 or more of suspension mods to run the Hoosier radial [meaning we will lose those cars, most likely] and I expect it will cost well over a$1,500 for my Swift [4 new A arms and two drive shafts. Others will need new pull rods and steering arms]

So, as best I can tell, we have three options;
1] Toyos: Heavy, maybe unreliable availability, runnable [optimal setup or compromise?] on most cars. The people who run them like them.
2] Hoosier radials: not much cheaper but last longer. Reliable supplier. Car counts likely to suffer as expensive mods are required by many.
3] Hoosier "modern" R60; No mods, no decreased car count, likely cost less, certainly last longer, good and reliable supplier. May have to wait a year for it to come out.

I'd like to get some feedback from Hoosier before putting option 3 up for a vote. To me, it seems the best option by far, but only if Hoosier will still build it. If not, then the Toyos seem better than a tire that will require many cars to have expensive modification to run. I will lose a race weekend next year to cover the cost. I suspect many will go to another series, but it seems car counts are likely to suffer if we go with the Hoosier radial.
I think Reid has contacted Hoosier about the "60 on a 45" option. If not, can anyone remind me of who to talk to at Hoosier? I'll contact them myself and let everyone know.

[Steve Bamford]

I have spoken with a few folks both within SCCA and a tire manufacturer. I would rather not post names as I am not even 100% sure they were given accurate information, but I was told by both sources that as of last month only two manufactures have submitted proposals to SCCA to be the spec tire for FF. Hoosier and Pirelli. No other manufactures have even submitted anything to SCCA or shown interest in being the spec tire for FF.

No clue on my end but is the SCCA asking for money from the tire manufactures to become the spec tire manufacture? Current situation I am guessing would be that no money is going into SCCA for FF tires as it is an open tire rule.

So I am asking is there a dollar requirement from the tire companies paid to the SCCA as part of the decision making progress? If so is that why if the above statement is correct?

[stuart jackson]

Time to get real guys.

SCCA is not going to spec a street radial for a formula class. Let's talk about REALISTIC choices of race slicks.

There is no reason we can't just simply have a SPEC COMPOUND.

Hoosier R60, in whatever form available, low priced old style cantilever, or new radial.

You choose, and run what works on YOUR car, and let's race !

One Manufacturer, with one SPEC COMPOUND now seems the obvious choice.

Current FF, pro F1600, or CFF, all on even playing field with the same compound, with tires out of the current Hoosier catalog that 1, last a long time, and 2, have a proven track record.

I used a USED set of R60 radials at atlanta 25/26 july tested friday raced sat and sunday, they were consistent through out and are still good for me to use at roebling in oct. To me R60 on a bias or radial makes total sense.

[Steve Bamford]

I used a USED set of R60 radials at atlanta 25/26 july tested friday raced sat and sunday, they were consistent through out and are still good for me to use at roebling in oct. To me R60 on a bias or radial makes total sense.

That is the Pro tire, we still use 6 tires per weekend & can use them for part of a test day. Tires work well for 2-4 sessions but times drop off after the 3rd session. They don't fall off a cliff but do not maintain what some other options do.

[reidhazelton]

.

[Garey Guzman]

That is the Pro tire, we still use 6 tires per weekend & can use them for part of a test day. Tires work well for 2-4 sessions but times drop off after the 3rd session. They don't fall off a cliff but do not maintain what some other options do.

Steve, For the 5th and 6th tires for the weekend, do you guys typically put on new fronts?

[Steve Bamford]

Steve, For the 5th and 6th tires for the weekend, do you guys typically put on new fronts?

Depends on the track but usually it is left sides, only a few times we have done both fronts as that is not the norm.

[swiftdrivr]

Steve,
What other options maintain better than the Pro tire?

BTW: Contact man at Hoosier is out this week. Hopefully we will get some feedback on the "60/45" option availability then. After that, I'd suggest we make our voices heard by the BOD

[Steve Bamford]

.

It's ok, what you said before was correct & I agree with what you said.

[Steve Bamford]

Steve,
What other options maintain better than the Pro tire?

BTW: Contact man at Hoosier is out this week. Hopefully we will get some feedback on the "60/45" option availability then. After that, I'd suggest we make our voices heard by the BOD

I'm not sure some people will want to know my answer. I am not trying to point the spec tire opinion in one direction or another, I am simply giving my experience after using this tire. There will be others who get more heat cycles out of the radial tires then we do, however I would be able to say what I am stating for usage goes for the majority of the F1600 Pro paddock.

[reidhazelton]

I was going to wait until the FastTrack came out, but the cats out of the bag.

The only two real choices we have are the current radial, or the current CFF R60 with 'dated construction' and a 6" front.

Toyo didn't respond to the RFP. They are out by their own accord. (What Steve asked is quite relevant here.)

Hoosier stepped up and has always been at the track, and offered engineering support whenever asked. They care. They want the business. Toyo? Doesn't seem so. (Again...what Steve asked.)

The R60 on current, 7" construction isn't available for 2016, which is why it wasn't presented. Not an option. If Hoosier pitched it, we'd all be on Pirellis next year.

Current R60, or pro radial.

Just my 2 cents, but we better figure it out as a group or this is dead in the water.

PS. Like I said a few months ago...maybe we are just at a point in time where old cars (like mine) need to go away. Let them go to vintage or be garage queens (again, like mine), adopt the radial, and unrestrict the Honda. Maybe the added grunt would bring more people in to offset the ones we would lose. SCCA doesn't seem to care about the little guy, so let's go all in on that theory. Costs are such that the guys with old cars won't be able to afford racing for much longer....so might as well cut the cord now??


This was deleted, and is unfounded:
[Toyo] Supply could be an issue. I was unaware of the supply issue at the time of the pole, but it seems that is a big reason to nix it. I will assume SCCA has substantially more cars to put booties on than that of our Canada brothers, and adding double or triple the demand to what seems like an already taxed supply chain from Toyo is a concern. I bet too large for SCCA to make Toyo a consideration.

[recaryob]

No clue on my end but is the SCCA asking for money from the tire manufactures to become the spec tire manufacture? Current situation I am guessing would be that no money is going into SCCA for FF tires as it is an open tire rule.

So I am asking is there a dollar requirement from the tire companies paid to the SCCA as part of the decision making progress? If so is that why if the above statement is correct?

As a 25 year member, I personally have no idea whether the club actually makes money off a spec tire deal. It wouldn't surprise me, but I would be curious to know for sure one way or the other.

I am glad Stuart chimmed in the on radial. I knew he had used them at Atlanta last month.

[swiftdrivr]

.".maybe we are just at a point in time where old cars (like mine) need to go away."
Look at new F4 and tell me we are going to see a bunch of new, $80,000 FFs sold over the next few years. I'd go for the R60 and figure Hoosier would come through with an updated one for next year. Just my vote.

[Steve Bamford]

What is the planned substitution for the Toyo 888's when they cease sales/production in 2016?

Brian

This is not correct.

Rumors abound, but facts are sketchy. I hear that the Toyo is not reliably available, and I hear that "pro-teams" don't run much camber with the Toyo.

There are no issues with supply.

Toyo didn't respond to the RFP. They are out by their own accord. (What Steve asked is quite relevant here.) Supply could be an issue. I was unaware of the supply issue at the time of the pole, but it seems that is a big reason to nix it.

I just spoke with the Canadian Promoter of the F1600 Series & he told me there is no supply issue & has no idea where people came up with this info.

Can we remove supply as an issue unless someone has more solid info?

[reidhazelton]

Thank you for the correction Steve, I ate the bait it seems.

Either way, Toyo did not answer the RFP. I believe RFP need to be done for legal reasons. Just thinking and making a guess....

I will delete that from my post.

[Steve Bamford]

Thank you for the correction Steve, I ate the bait it seems.

Either way, Toyo did not answer the RFP. I believe RFP need to be done for legal reasons. Just thinking and making a guess....

I will delete that from my post.

Since we are all members of the "Club" could we not find out what is part of the RFP? If they are asking someone to "Buy" the business then how does that help us as racers?

[reidhazelton]

Since we are all members of the "Club" could we not find out what is part of the RFP? If they are asking someone to "Buy" the business then how does that help us as racers?

I think you've been around long enough to know SCCA isn't exactly known for transparency.

[mblanc]

Current R60, or pro radial.

Just my 2 cents, but we better figure it out as a group or this is dead in the water.

[/I]

IF,....

Those are the choices, Let's just pick BOTH

or, more specifically,
JUST SPEC the R60 COMPOUND,

-Current old fashioned R60 cantilever tire keeps ALL guys w/ old cars happy.
-Radial R60 allows pro crossover (down and up) and makes those guys happy.
-When Hoosier starts immediately building a 7" R60, it is immediately allowed, and it makes Reid (and a bunch of other people) happy.

(you can't tell me Hoosier couldn't asap start building a 7" R60, if that was allowed for us. They will have a bunch of 7" R25/35/45 molds that won't be doing anything..........)
And spec'ing the compound, allows for the 'tire not yet built' to be allowed, used, and available by Spring

[reidhazelton]

IF,....

Those are the choices, Let's just pick BOTH

or, more specifically,
JUST SPEC the R60 COMPOUND,

-Current old fashioned R60 cantilever tire keeps ALL guys w/ old cars happy.
-Radial R60 allows pro crossover (down and up) and makes those guys happy.
-When Hoosier starts immediately building a 7" R60, it is immediately allowed, and it makes Reid (and a bunch of other people) happy.

(you can't tell me Hoosier couldn't asap start building a 7" R60, if that was allowed for us. They will have a bunch of 7" R25/35/45 molds that won't be doing anything..........)
And spec'ing the compound, allows for the 'tire not yet built' to be allowed, used, and available by Spring

The issue I see with this is it doesn't really make for a spec tire in the full sense. It's a half solution. I'd be fine with it personally, but then you have the issue of one tire being faster at one track than another. It would open the testing issue that a spec tire is suppose to solve. Fronts on the rear comes back into play that a lot of people don't like.

And like I have said, my car isn't coming out much, if at all, and how this goes doesn't really matter to me. What I am trying to do is help finish what we have started and do so in a way that does the most good, for the most people. It's not about making me happy.

[mblanc]

It's not about making me happy.

Wasn't ripping on you,.........
you're just fun to pick on.....

I just still can't see alienating older cars that would struggle with the radial conversion.

[reidhazelton]

Wasn't ripping on you,.........
you're just fun to pick on.....

Ain't that the truth.

[Garey Guzman]

Fastrack posted....
Read, then write your letter!

[Garey Guzman]

Letter sent for proposal (but would rather not include spec wets at this time)

Tracking Number: #17615

[Will Velkoff]

Does anyone know what the official price will be on the radials?

I have no problem with them from a performance standpoint because I can't stand the current cantilever rear and they are an R60 compound which works for me.

I think the current bias R60 with the 6" front is great tire as well, so I would not be opposed to that if the cantilever was gone, but doesn't sound like that's an option.

From being around F1600 this year it doesn't seem the high amount of camber is actually required in these tires as initially thought.

[Tom Valet]

e. Formula F shall be limited to the following tires (front tires may not be used as rears):
Dries:
Front-Hoosier Radial 43322 185/60R13
Rear-Hoosier Radial 43327 205/60R13

So is this the club version of the Pro tire? Any differences?

BTW, SRF has gone to a Hoosier radial as well, are they using the same tires as the Pro tire? My hunch is that these are all the same basic tire which is why Hoosier opted for a radial for FF Pro and Club, economies of scale, etc.

[Garey Guzman]

Those part numbers were listed on the Hoosier site but I didn't look for pricing

[Tom Valet]

Does anyone know what the official price will be on the radials?

Front and rears are listed in the catalogue at $191 each. I called Hoosier.

[Will Velkoff]

I just spoke to Hoosier Tire East.

Price per tire is $190, for both front and rear.

That is $760/set.

Another $100 or so per set above what I've been paying for the bias ply R60's. I only run one set a year anyway so not a huge change for me financially, but will be interesting to see how the radial tire compares to the bias ply.

[Steve Bamford]

So based on the fast track question or suggestion I understand the BOD is asking for input.

I have a question before responding that maybe Mr. Larue or someone else who has experience with this can respond and advise.

If we don't agree with the tire proposed but do agree with a spec tire does mentioning that further lessan the chances of us getting a spec tire in place? I think I know the answer to that but have to ask.

For the record I would have no issue running on this tire as a spec tire just think there are some other options that would last longer and save drivers more money. This proposed tire is still a huge step forward compared to the current open tire rule and I think this is for sure a better move then doing nothing. If this is the only choice for a spec tire then I fully support it, I am just not sure how we got down to only one option to comment upon. I still question is it a "purchased" only option?

[SEComposites]

In both recent Apex polls the Toyo still commands significantly more support than any other option. Surely this is still a valid tire. Why would we want a tire that drops off in performance much quicker? The quick/better funded drivers will still put on sticker tires as often as they feel necessary. The Toyo removes this option thus keeping costs down and the playing field that bit more level. I can't understand why some people don't accept this. Based on this poll we should have the Toyo.

[Tom Valet]

The Toyo was never going to be an option for the reasons we discussed when this proposal first went in to SCCA, namely, the business relationship between Hoosier and SCCA. There is simply no way to get around that. SCCA is not going to shut Hoosier out of the FF class when it has been virtually the only tire company to support the class in SCCA for years now.

[Tom Valet]

BTW, I agree with what Steve said, even if not the perfect option, if we don't support this tire then there will never be a Spec Tire in FF.

[Tom Duncan]

At $760 a set, the R60a compound and a 6.4" front I think they hit the nail on the head, I'm close to sending in my letter encouraging adoption of the rule.

The price point is a big chunk off the current gumballs, the R60a compound is proven and the radial construction will bring in a bit of a wild card that will be fun. What's not to like?

To confirm, this is the same exact tire as the currently used Pro tire but with different part numbers, correct?

Note rains are dictated as well, no more using 10-year old hand-me-down Goodyears...

At the very least we will have a spec tire rule in place, which I feel is the main goal. While I'm sure many can and will nitpick about the specific choice and there are indeed other choices that would work equally as well/poorly, I would suggest we stay focused on just getting the spec tire rule in place by writing the board and supporting adoption of the rule, without caveats. Then after a year of trying it out we can bitch and moan about a different tire (or a revision of the 'no fronts on the rear' rule if that irks you) if anyone feels like the Hoosier isn't working.

I might even hang on to my Van Diemen and race it again or run some races in FF with my PRS Club Ford.

Tom Duncan

PS: Email address for comments is https://www.crbscca.com/

[Tom Valet]

Tom, I am pretty sure this is the Pro tire without F1600 on the sidewalk, so if that is true there is a year of experience on these tires to draw on.

[Tom Valet]

One other point, if you look at the results of the SCCA poll given at the beginning of Fastrack, this tire meets virtually everything that the racers overwhelmingly asked for. So now we are going to tell Hoosier this is not the right tire for the class?

[Tom Duncan]

Tom, yes I went back a few pages and found the information that the tires are the same, just different labeling (and pricing?) so that seals the deal for me.

Regarding "So now we are going to tell Hoosier this is not the right tire for the class?", where is that coming from?

I sent in my email to National supporting the rule change.

Tom

[Tom Valet]

some people will be upset that the Toyo is not an option. I get that and the reasons why. That should not be used as a reason to reject this proposal, in my opinion. That's all I meant.