Spec Tire Poll... again.

[reidhazelton]

With the last spec tire poll having started in December of '14, I thought we should revisit the idea now that we have 9 months of better information regarding the current options. Rumor mill says the BOD proposal seeking input will be in the next FastTrack. We should start to organize now. To gather support and not fragment ourselves, I thought it best to include the 2 most likely choices. We need to gather support for one option and all get behind that as a class. Fragmenting ourselves will take some of the control from the class and give SCCA ambiguous information.

It seems the two most viable and likely options are the Hoosier Radial that is currently in use in the F1600 Series, and the Toyo tires currently in use in the Canadian F1600 series and the regional series in Arizona. As much as I'd like to include other choices, these are really the only two options we have in front of us as I hear it. I'd suggest gathering support and putting a collective effort behind that.

So, check out the FastTrack when it comes out and write your letters. The letter writing process is the only thing that we have that means anything. It has gotten us this far, and we need to keep at it if this it to conclude the way the majority of the class wants.

Letters can be sent to: https://www.crbscca.com/ When the time comes to write, be sure to include if you are a current participant (or would be), and if you agree or disagree with the proposal in FastTrack. If you disagree, state the alternative and why.

RH

[SEComposites]

Thanks for getting this going again Reid. As I've said before I really do think an all weather treaded tire would really help FF get back to where it should be as a low cost class. The Toyo seems to fit the bill pretty well being significantly cheaper and longer lasting that the apparent Hoosier option. Of course this has all been hammered out in the previous thread so let's see where the poll takes us!

[alangbaker]

So, check out the FastTrack when it comes out and write your letters. The letter writing process is the only thing that we have that means anything. It has gotten us this far, and we need to keep at it if this it to conclude the way the majority of the class wants.

Letters can be sent to: https://www.crbscca.com/ When the time comes to write, be sure to include if you are a current participant (or would be), and if you agree or disagree with the proposal in FastTrack. If you disagree, state the alternative and why.

RH

Thanks for getting this going again Reid. As I've said before I really do think an all weather treaded tire would really help FF get back to where it should be as a low cost class. The Toyo seems to fit the bill pretty well being significantly cheaper and longer lasting that the apparent Hoosier option. Of course this has all been hammered out in the previous thread so let's see where the poll takes us!

Seconded.

We've had great success in our very tiny corner of club racing here in BC with a gentlemen's agreement to all run on American Racer tires (and maybe they should be an option to vote for), an for me, it only makes sense to:

1. Do what we can to make FF racing more economical
2. Align tires as much as possible with what is already going on.

FF racing in Canada is on R888s, so that's a part 2 checkmark, and the R888s are almost certainly going to be less expensive than anything Hoosier supplies, so that might tick the box for part 1.

[John Robinson II]

Reid,
I don't want to muddy the water, but there should be a 3rd option that is even more viable. R60 compound bias ply on new construction carcasses.
the spec tire for most CF is the R60 compound but on a very dated carcass construction, hence the reason Hoosier sells them cheaper. I feel that the longevity of the new radial is not due to its construction but the compound used. Changes to the older cars will not be required. And I would think that they would cost less then the radials. Hoosier made the radial to satisfy FRP feeling they needed to introduce the climbers to a radial tire.

besides, I would bet that most front runners will purchase a new set for each major event they attend and use the others for testing and practice. I don't think there are any of the competitors in the pro series that are using tires from previous weekends or not using their allotment of tires per weekend.

I have discussed this with several BOD members when asked my opinion.

John

[reidhazelton]

Reid,
I don't want to muddy the water, but there should be a 3rd option that is even more viable. R60 compound bias ply on new construction carcasses.
the spec tire for most CF is the R60 compound but on a very dated carcass construction, hence the reason Hoosier sells them cheaper. I feel that the longevity of the new radial is not due to its construction but the compound used. Changes to the older cars will not be required. And I would think that they would cost less then the radials. Hoosier made the radial to satisfy FRP feeling they needed to introduce the climbers to a radial tire.


John

Thank you John. I did not include that option because the tire does not currently exist. It would require at least another year to happen. Make, test, propose, etc. In the previous pole there was a 'some other tire that is yet to be designed", and that had very little response, 3% maybe? The decision is in front of us next month, and putting it off will do little good. What becomes spec in 2016 does not mean it will be the same forever. If the new R60 is made and works, then that can be done for 2017. It can't be done for 2016, or so I assume based on the 9 months this took to come up to the BOD and be sent out for comment. If the class wants a tire for 2016, these are the options that were the two front runners.

[reidhazelton]

I would bet that most front runners will purchase a new set for each major event they attend and use the others for testing and practice. I don't think there are any of the competitors in the pro series that are using tires from previous weekends or not using their allotment of tires per weekend.

I have discussed this with several BOD members when asked my opinion.

John

If the radial (R60 compound) is seen as faster when new in the pro series (evidenced by the allotted 6 tires being used) then wouldn't the same hold true for the R60 compound on a new carcass? What is the benefit there over the current state?

This is a question, I am abstaining from entering my opinion. It's been said enough already. I am just trying to facilitate.

[Raceworks]

Reid,
besides, I would bet that most front runners will purchase a new set for each major event they attend and use the others for testing and practice. I don't think there are any of the competitors in the pro series that are using tires from previous weekends or not using their allotment of tires per weekend.

I don't know of any pro teams doing double-duty on a set for pro races. I do know one team used a pro-weekend set of tires at a subsequent club race (and ran up front there).

[John Robinson II]

Thank you John. I did not include that option because the tire does not currently exist. It would require at least another year to happen. Make, test, propose, etc. In the previous pole there was a 'some other tire that is yet to be designed", and that had very little response, 3% maybe? The decision is in front of us next month, and putting it off will do little good. What becomes spec in 2016 does not mean it will be the same forever. If the new R60 is made and works, then that can be done for 2017. It can't be done for 2016, or so I assume based on the 9 months this took to come up to the BOD and be sent out for comment. If the class wants a tire for 2016, these are the options that were the two front runners.

but this would not be a new tire for Hoosier, just a matter of using the R60 compound formula on the new construction.

I was also told that they were/are considering a tire from a different manufacturer and that choice would delay the decision by a year.

haven't we already been asked for our opinion? my understanding is they were (last week) voting for or against.

here is a question for you specifically, Reid, have you not been running this year solely because of the cost of new tires?

my gut tells me that cheaper tires are not going to get the garage queens back on the track. there will ALWAYS be more excuses for not participating.

John

PS FWIW, It is known that I give my takeoffs to the local guys for free, that has not brought out any of the GQs around here.

[reidhazelton]

but this would not be a new tire for Hoosier, just a matter of using the R60 compound formula on the new construction.

I was also told that they were/are considering a tire from a different manufacturer and that choice would delay the decision by a year.

haven't we already been asked for our opinion? my understanding is they were (last week) voting for or against.

here is a question for you specifically, Reid, have you not been running this year solely because of the cost of new tires?

my gut tells me that cheaper tires are not going to get the garage queens back on the track. there will ALWAYS be more excuses for not participating.

John

PS FWIW, It is known that I give my takeoffs to the local guys for free, that has not brought out any of the GQs around here.

It is a new tire, with current compound and construction. The combination is new. Knowing Hoosier, they would want to test that before releasing it. That will put it off for another year. It took 9 months to get to this point. If we have to evaluate a different tire that is not available right now, kiss 2016 goodbye.

I can't respond to sentence #2, I know nothing about that. Personally, I'd like it to be a Hoosier tire for previously stated reasons, even if it is the radial that won't work on the my car as it sits. Your R60 would work, but that is going back to where we were 9 months ago and starting all over again.

My understanding is that the proposal that was voted for in favor by the BOD is now going back to the club for comment per the typical SCCA process.

Since you asked, my reason for not running (and only running at Road America) is 100% due to the inclusion of the Honda. Tire cost is the same now as it was in 2010. I ran often in 2010. I had a sensible tire program where I raced on new or 2 cycle tires, then I used 3-4 cycle tires for qualifying, and then used those 5-6 cycle tires for practice. I was able to to a double national on 1 set of tires (using past event tires for qual and practice), and depending on the track be able to get one more race out of them. For me, the cost was not all that bad if you use tires sensibly. Of course, the Runoffs were a bit different.

[reidhazelton]

my gut tells me that cheaper tires are not going to get the garage queens back on the track. there will ALWAYS be more excuses for not participating.

John

I would have agreed with this a couple weeks ago, but in the "New Car Cost" thread we learned that the repetitive costs to run the car were far important than one time costs or entry-to-class costs. I don't see people as making excuses to avoid doing something they clearly enjoy, but more so a reason as to why they don't race anymore. These reasons are from people who stopped, not people who never have - which would be more apt to make an excuse. I agree, it might not bring back people in hoards, but it will help to keep people from leaving.

Regardless if cheap booties will bring cars back, the membership has spoken overwhelmingly in favor of a low cost, longer life tire. That much we can be certain of. Now the question is what tire will accomplish that.

[Hardingfv32]

What compound does the FF 1600 use? How do you know the R60 will be more durable?

I heard that the SM spec tire (SM7) is using recently developed chemistry from the OEM street tire industry where there has been a big effort to increase milage. Some of this chemistry is transferring over to race tires. Maybe the FF 1600 is using something new.

Are you sure that you get to choose between two choices or just passing judgement on the CRB choice of a FF spec tire?

Brian

[reidhazelton]

What compound does the FF 1600 use? How do you know the R60 will be more durable?


Are you sure that you get to choose between two choices or just passing judgement on the CRB choice of a FF spec tire?

Brian

The pro F1600 tire is the same compound as the R60 (which is also the same compound as the R6 I believe). It is a compound that is known to be durable and Hoosier has a lot of experience with it. The durability of the radial is likely more due to the compound than the construction, as John mentioned. The longevity of the compound is well known and accepted.

As I said, I feel it's best we narrow it down to the two most widely preferred choices we have available right now to avoid a fragmented response that would be easier for the BOD to ignore. The Toyo and the Hoosier radial was the leading choice from the last poll. There is no sense in again presenting the 'also rans' of that pole. The BOD will present what tire they chose and ask for comment. It is not a 'pick a tire' proposal. It is a yes/no they are looking for as I understand it - which could be wrong. Just what I hear.

[Roux]

Does anyone have the total weight of the Toyos? Vs the Hoosier Radials?

I am always sneaking up to min weight but never getting there and part of my preference would be for the lighter of the two.

Rain tire elimination is good for space in the trailer and cost but it might put us right in the FV battle if they stay with real rain tires. I know this has been pointed out before.

I guess I am OK with either

Steve

[Will Velkoff]

Does anyone have the total weight of the Toyos? Vs the Hoosier Radials?

I am always sneaking up to min weight but never getting there and part of my preference would be for the lighter of the two.

Rain tire elimination is good for space in the trailer and cost but it might put us right in the FV battle if they stay with real rain tires. I know this has been pointed out before.

I guess I am OK with either

Steve

Regarding minimum weight:

I would hope the rules change would include a minimum weight increase if the spec tire chosen is heavier than the current tire.

[mblanc]

There is no reason that we cannot have the spec tire rule as I wrote it and suggested it was at it 8 or 9 months or more ago already?

I just said simply spec the Hoosier R 60 compound tire. Period.
Coveniently, since then Hoosier badged the radial as an R60. So of the current options, we could select be regular old style bias, or the new radial, but stay with the spec compound !

Any R60 CURRENT tire would be a simple and viable choice, no changes required for anybody on old cars and you can run a pro car in a major, or you can run at Club ford at a major. everybody's happy. Seems simple,.......

In my world, I was just hoping to read that in the next Fastrack.
FF goes to spec R60. Done.

[Garey Guzman]

Personally, I'd prefer not to go slower than F500/F600. Or slower than CF.

There. I said it.

[SEComposites]

Why would you go slower than a CF? Surely this is a blanket tire rule for all FF's!?
A set of Hoosiers is close to $1000 per set
A set of Toyos is around $600 per set
That's a race entry fee in difference. Not to mention the Toyos lasting much longer. If we're all on the same tire it's the same for everyone.

[BWC54]

Why would you go slower than a CF? Surely this is a blanket tire rule for all FF's!?

CF is not a national class. It's up to the regions to decide what tire they use. This spec tire is the one that will be used for Majors. In Majors you will usually be running with F5 and FV. In Majors I've also run with FM but I don't know if they still do that anywhere. The regions are free to determine the tire rule for their Divisional series no matter what spec tire SCCA calls for.

BTW that's why when SCCA sent out their questionaire they focused on sending it to people who actually participated in Majors events.

[SEComposites]

That's madness! All FF's should be on the same tire. My, what a mess.

[Garey Guzman]

R60's have been the spec tire for CF for a long time. Cheaper and more durable. Hmmmm.....

[SEComposites]

Toyo's are even cheaper and last longer and double up as wets. Hmmmm

[Garey Guzman]

Yes, we've had this conversation before.....

[SEComposites]

I don't know why I didn't think of this before, but the solution is staring us all in the face. There are currently 4 different tires that an FF car run on in the U.S. , so how about the left front gets a Toyo R888 the right front can use the Dunlop/Avon treaded tire, the left rear a Hoosier R60 cantilever and lastly we can use the current pro/series tire on the right rear.

[Garey Guzman]

Great idea Ben! Then everyone will have 3 tires they hate!

[Brian C in Az]

CF is not a national class. It's up to the regions to decide what tire they use. This spec tire is the one that will be used for Majors. In Majors you will usually be running with F5 and FV. In Majors I've also run with FM but I don't know if they still do that anywhere. The regions are free to determine the tire rule for their Divisional series no matter what spec tire SCCA calls for.

BTW that's why when SCCA sent out their questionaire they focused on sending it to people who actually participated in Majors events.

Most of the regions have chosen to run a harder compound tire to minimize costs. The guys that run on the American Racers when visiting Az are not any quicker than the guys running the Toyo tires. Our track record is held by a CF on Toyo R888's by a non local. It was his 4th time on the Toyos.

If the SCCA choses the Toyo, most regions would probably follow suit. Partly because the Canadians have been successful with that tire.

The Canadians have many more cars per event than any region in the US. Here in Az, we typically get 16 to 25 cars per event, every event. Low cost tires are the main reason. Long lasting tires, good traction, very low per race cost.

[PRS56]

Since there seems to be a consensus that there needs to be a common FF tire, here's a another bit of info that can only add to the confusion.
Since May, there has been a strong rumor circulating in the vintage FF community here in the East that a Hoosier replacement for the currently unavailable threaded Dunlop is in development and in the que for testing by someone known to vintage and SCCA racers.
As has been told to me, if the test goes well then the next step in the process is to get Monoposto approval as an accepted tire under their rules for 2016.

[reidhazelton]

We have started the path to a spec tire. The BOD has a proposal we will see soon. It's important that we come together and back one horse and not let this get away. As I understand it, it is up to the membership to push this through. I suggest we don't fragment ourselves and lose the progress we have made. If we send the CRB a bunch of letters that are just a repeat of 9 months ago it will do no good at all.

[swiftdrivr]

I was fairly shocked to see that the BOD was proposing a tire whose camber requirements would force me to have to design and purchase new A-Arms and drive shafts. I like John's suggestion of an R60 on newer construction [and I have talked to Hoosier, who said it would be no problem to build it if we wanted it] It seems an option that apparently is available on request, that doesn't require mods to a whole bunch of cars, should be included.

[reidhazelton]

I was fairly shocked to see that the BOD was proposing a tire whose camber requirements would force me to have to design and purchase new A-Arms and drive shafts. I like John's suggestion of an R60 on newer construction [and I have talked to Hoosier, who said it would be no problem to build it if we wanted it] It seems an option that apparently is available on request, that doesn't require mods to a whole bunch of cars, should be included.

Then rally some troops and make it happen. There needs to be a unified effort, for what really makes no difference to me at this point.

[Gokart Mozart]

And now for the oddball CFF/FF parttime racer point of view:

R60s or Toyos- I give zero which one. However, either one could bring me back into running FF in SCCA, perhaps moreso with the R60s.

I've stopped running SCCA nationals (or majors or whatever marketing ploy they are using) in FF due to the fact I more-or-less have a CFF and the FF Hoosiers I was running basically caused a bit of rather alarming stress on my car.

Thus, I'm running CFF in SVRA and VSCDA this year on the treaded Avons and they seem to be a good shoe, though a treaded tire looks bizarre on the Eagle. Moreover, they last, and go for around $800. Somewhere between the Hoosiers and the Toyos.

Both SVRA and VSCDA run the Monoposto rules package for CFF, and I wish they would adopt the R60s as their CFF tire, as I could run CFF in SCCA Regionals with the same tire, but alas- SCCA doesn't want to let me run the Avons in CFF. I was told I could run it in FF, but I'd be rather out to lunch.

Perhaps I just have issues with sanctioning bodies.

If I could run the same tire in CFF and FF across the board, that would be swell. Until then, I just have to keep searching for wheels, since I doubt I'll ever be in the majority with my across-the-board tire issue.

[swiftdrivr]

I'll take you up on that, Reid. I image John and I are not the only ones who would prefer a tire that doesn't lose us a bunch of cars that will choose not to modify, and just go to one of the other sanctioning bodies instead. Shall I ask for a seperate poll, and not mess with your's above, or add R60 on a 45 construction [available if requested] as an option?

[reidhazelton]

I'll take you up on that, Reid. I image John and I are not the only ones who would prefer a tire that doesn't lose us a bunch of cars that will choose not to modify, and just go to one of the other sanctioning bodies instead. Shall I ask for a seperate poll, and not mess with your's above, or add R60 on a 45 construction [available if requested] as an option?

Hi Jim-
Sounds great. I am not the dictator here, and what I says means nothing more than anyone else. I don't think I can change the poll we have going, so please feel free to start yours. I'll be the first to vote!

Again, my only concern with the R60 on the modern construction is that it will likely push this back to 2017 as that tire does not exist and would have to go through a verification process. I called Hoosier to inquire about it, and am waiting for a call back.

Everyone is free to do what they wish, I just caution fragmentation may push the spec tire debate off the cliff without a parachute.

[Todd Butler]

As I said, I feel it's best we narrow it down to the two most widely preferred choices we have available right now to avoid a fragmented response that would be easier for the BOD to ignore. The Toyo and the Hoosier radial was the leading choice from the last poll. There is no sense in again presenting the 'also rans' of that pole. The BOD will present what tire they chose and ask for comment. It is not a 'pick a tire' proposal. It is a yes/no they are looking for as I understand it - which could be wrong. Just what I hear.

100% correct.

FF will be presented with a yes/no on a specific tire. BoD is going to vote based on that feedback and absent feedback will likely vote based on past feedback! Read the BoD minutes that goes out in Fastrack for the background that got us to a) a spec tire and b) a specific tire recommendation.

Based on the previous polls there is overwhelming sentiment for a spec tire. FF drivers should think long and hard about the tire choice presented. If it is not your ideal choice, can you realistically live with it? If the answer is no then you lose the chance of a spec tire for 2016, maybe beyond as well. Not a threat, just a reality. If older cars need some modification (example if a radial and more negative camber needed) what is the one time cost of doing that vs buying multiple sets of gumball tires in season?

From the SCCA position, this has to be a ground up driven activity. There is no way SCCA will support the time, energy and expense of a tire test in non-spec classes. Timing wise, rules making, and tire manufacturing practicality, and given the racing season starts in January in some parts of the country, this is the last chance to make it for 2016.

Respectfully,

Todd Butler
Area 13 Director

[marshall9]

I was fairly shocked to see that the BOD was proposing a tire whose camber requirements would force me to have to design and purchase new A-Arms and drive shafts. I like John's suggestion of an R60 on newer construction .

Which tire are you suggesting would require this? The R888 Toyo certainly does not. There are a LOT of DB1s andVan Diemens out here that work fine with -1 to-2 degrees camber on Toyos. Also Spectrums, Mygales,Pipers etc in Canada. Support the tire of your choice, but if you want actual data on set up for Toyos, talk to the guys and engineers that are running them , they know and are not speculating.

Many threads and posts on here discuss this, and the fact is that Any more than a degree or two negative camber just wears out the R888s quicker, and does nothing to lower lap times. This is the fact from professional wining teams that do a lot of testing.

[SEComposites]

I believe it's the radial Hoosier that needs more camber than some (quite a few) cars can achieve.

[mblanc]

Time to get real guys.

SCCA is not going to spec a street radial for a formula class. Let's talk about REALISTIC choices of race slicks.

There is no reason we can't just simply have a SPEC COMPOUND.

Hoosier R60, in whatever form available, low priced old style cantilever, or new radial.

You choose, and run what works on YOUR car, and let's race !

One Manufacturer, with one SPEC COMPOUND now seems the obvious choice.

Current FF, pro F1600, or CFF, all on even playing field with the same compound, with tires out of the current Hoosier catalog that 1, last a long time, and 2, have a proven track record.

[Hardingfv32]

What is the planned substitution for the Toyo 888's when they cease sales/production in 2016?

Brian

[Brian C in Az]

I was fairly shocked to see that the BOD was proposing a tire whose camber requirements would force me to have to design and purchase new A-Arms and drive shafts. I like John's suggestion of an R60 on newer construction [and I have talked to Hoosier, who said it would be no problem to build it if we wanted it] It seems an option that apparently is available on request, that doesn't require mods to a whole bunch of cars, should be included.

The Toyo tires do not require extreme camber as do the new Hoosier radials. You won't need any new A arms or driveshafts, etc if the Toyo tires are the choice.

[Brian C in Az]

What is the planned substitution for the Toyo 888's when they cease sales/production in 2016?

Brian

Toyo just signed a new contract and commitment with the Canadian series for 5 years.

[Brian C in Az]

Time to get real guys.

SCCA is not going to spec a street radial for a formula class. Let's talk about REALISTIC choices of race slicks..

The rest of the WORLD runs treaded tires on Formual Fords.
The other countries have large fields of cars.
Time to get real.