The Future of Class

[derminator]

Gentleman
I thought it was time to start a new thread because the previous thread although entertaining from time to time, It was not helping what we all want and that is to further FV/F1200 going forward. I would like to hear constructive ideas on how we can build the class and bring new blood into our fold. It was interesting this pass weekend at Pocono. There was a drifting event going on at the same time as the regional and I couldn't get over the amount of people that were involved. Personally I still don't get the allure of drifting. I refer to it as the human version of " a cat with aluminum foil' But I give them credit they are doing something right. They had large numbers of people watching the parade of cars blow up their rear tires.
Again this is not a post about drifting. I would like to hear peoples ideas ( other then a spec tire) on how we increase the car counts across the county not just in the northeast. Lets work together on this. I also ask that those that have their own agenda reframe from commenting. This is a post on benefitting FV/F1200

[nbrigido]

So much for a quiet Saturday..

I think everyone is going to have a different opinion, but it would be the sum of all the opinions where the ideas will come from.

Just reading the posts from the "other" threads, no matter where you are in the racing structure. Cost is always a concern. Some cost we can control, some costs we cannot. But everyone that is coming to the track or thinking of coming to the track has that on his/her mind.

At the end of the day we need to present value for what is put out there.

Aside of cost, is Single Series Run Groups seem to be at the top of many lists. For various reason many drivers do not want to deal with Mixed Formula racing or being the 1 of 2 cars on the track.

[fvhopeful]

The north east puts on an open wheel driving experience
If we could look into that sort of venue
Also a mentoring program to help new people.

Cheers
Desmond

Hitch Guide

[Steve Bamford]

I will target my response at the people who have cars already.

You need to create single class run groups and continue to promote it. Running mixed class racing is HORRIBLE after you have run single class racing.

You need to release your 2016 schedule by Oct/Nov so people can plan their racing season out.

People need to be convinced to not go to the SCCA local event 50 miles away the weekend before you have a single class run group that is 200 or 250 miles away.

Sometimes less is more meaning not have 20 or 30 events including SCCA mixed class races to choose from over a year and only 6 or 7 single class weekends and get people to commit to them.

[Marshall Mauney]

Cost!

Let's think about the lowest-cost possible approach, with someone buying a "junker" old car at $5K that barely runs - but can be made legal. For a new entrant who has yet to turn a wheel on track, before they can enter the first event, they have to purchase:

Helmet
Suit
Gloves
Shoes
Nomex undies / balaclava
HNR
School entry
License
Medical exam / signoff

Then they have to get that old beat-up car through a tech inspection, and likely have to replace at least the belts to get an annual (and probably more if they bought a true bottom-$$$ basket case).

Then there's scheduling. How many schools are actually available for the low-$$$ beginner? Telling them to go spend a bunch more to run a weekend with one of the "pro" schools just tells them to go elsewhere because they can't afford to run SCCA. If there's only one school in their area, and it happens to fall on a weekend that they can't attend, we've lost them. Meanwhile, the more sign-offs we accept from other organizations, the fewer entrants we have to support the schools....that's a spiral downward, IMO

Now, let's compare those costs to the guy who runs a local track day. Helmet - check. Not much else. Lots of date options from various marque clubs, right? Tech inspection consists of......?

I wonder about the barriers to entry for the drifting guys.....????

[craigs]

Publish the schedule early (2015 for 2016) and coordinate at least division wide.

Don't compete with marque or unique events. For example, Thompson runs a formula only weekend, scca bracket enduro, or the Boston Indy race.

And I know this one will get some people, but demonstrating or even just portraying a collaborative approach to scheduling, running events, and recruiting would go a long way. If I didnt already have a fv I would not buy one after reading this years version of the annual bickering.

[craigs]

Marshall - at least in the northeast the scca powers that be are very open to working with drivers on alternate methods of sign off for novice permits. We have several methods including club racin experience days (where non licensed drivers have their own run groups) and bracket enduro experience.

I loved my school and still think the tack time value was one of the best out there, but nowadays there are many other routes the scca locally will allow.

I encourage anyone reading this in the northeast that does not have their novice permit yet, but is interested in getting on track to pm me. I will make sure to get you in touch with the right people to help reduce your barrier to entry. Safely of course.

Craig

[gbmetcalf]

I have a car. I took a Skippy school (Absolutely money well spent). Busted my butt to get the car ready for the Summit Point Majors, qualified but didn't race as I had many things that needed to be done to make me comfortable in the car as well as repairing a broken head stud. Now I'm saving and waiting for 2016 to get here so I can join the Challenge cup! I have wheels and tires for both slick and Falken racing. I am fixing all the gremlins I found at the Majors. If the Sech comes out early I can request vacation(if I get to keep it is another hurdle).
I'm the low budget racer that has been on the outside looking in for a VERY long time. I have raced a few different non-SCCA classes but have come back to my first love FV. All the bickering aside Formula Vee is full of very helpful and kind people, who will go out of their way to get you on track and having fun.(Ray C, Arnie C, Steve D, Dave S, Dan G, Dietmar, and most of all Nancy ect...ect) If we get grassroots groups like the Challenge Cup going from region to region, and we start doing events like the NE region did this year We can start taking steps to grow the class. Racing as a Whole is hurting. We are competing with so many other "hobbies" that cost much less and take a ton less effort.

As for pot stirrers like Brian.....I choose to ignore them.(granted it does get hard some time). I value more the opinions of people that are racing and trying to help the class, and be positive role models for the up and coming racers out there.

JMHO
G.

[derminator]

Now this is getting us somewhere. Craig great input on the schooling because I agree that is one hurdle we need to make easier for newbies.

[Mason66]

Does anyone have any experience promoting the class to Cart clubs?

How did a guy like Matt Garwood from Canada get involved?

[gbmetcalf]

I for one think we need to be more out there in the public... I always joked that SCCA stood for Secret Car Club of America. Most of our races are closed to the public and honestly we do a very poor job promoting ourselves.
I got interested in the SCCA after I met Ernie Walden at a car show at the local mall He had a Hawke FSV. The autocrossers were promoting themselves a lot back then. They didn't care that it was a DIRT race car show, they got involved and they had videos, handouts, and just talked the club up to anyone that would listen.
I think the promotional video is a great idea. Drivers like Kim Madrid are a great example of the "little guy/gal who puts the time in to be successful, and who truly live racing.

G.

[Mason66]

You know I've always talked the talk about taking the car to a car show and never have, shame on me. People that like cars in most cases like race cars and all forms of racing no matter the style of car. I think maybe we could start an incentive program for existing drivers that participate in something like a car show, a promotional day at at local mechanical shops etc. Just a thought!

[craigs]

I take very little credit for it besides showing up to stand in the booth, but the northeast formula vee guys do the circle track show circuit. We do not rely on the scca to promote us at these events.

We do need to do a better job of getting cars out to display at the track night in America events though. Great opportunity that we need to own next year.

These type of events (tn in a) are older people looking to get out on track. We get more new blood up here from older guys than we do from kart racers. I saw more former karters at one formula lites weekend than I have in years of fv regionals.

[craigs]

Our incentives are hanging out with fellow vee racers and meeting potential vee racers. Nothing more, nothing less. That's all we need.

[gbmetcalf]

The local bull rings and drivers promote themselves 10 times better than we do. Ive participated in many a car show in every class I've been involved in. I have both a Twitter and Facebook accounts for Amy Lynn Racing LLC. to be more public.
My thought was what about approaching the local roundy round black top tracks to do a "informational" race to draw more attention to our class?

G.

[craigs]

Couple of things when working with roundy round tracks and drivers. For the tracks especially, what's in it for them to promote road racing? For Thompson and nhms up here it works cause they are rovals. Met a few nice legends guys at the Thompson open wheel weekend, but for Hudson speedway in nh? They wouldn't and shouldn't welcome us.

As far as drivers we need to sell to their needs - no weekly crash damage, no blatant cheating, and rules stability.

My "crew chief" ran roundy round for years. Even with no entry fees and prize money the damage, cheating and yearly rule changes burnt him and I out.

[gbmetcalf]

Couple of things when working with roundy round tracks and drivers. For the tracks especially, what's in it for them to promote road racing? For Thompson and nhms up here it works cause they are rovals. Met a few nice legends guys at the Thompson open wheel weekend, but for Hudson speedway in nh? They wouldn't and shouldn't welcome us.

As far as drivers we need to sell to their needs - no weekly crash damage, no blatant cheating, and rules stability.

My "crew chief" ran roundy round for years. Even with no entry fees and prize money the damage, cheating and yearly rule changes burnt him and I out.

1. The "other non-SCCA classes" I ran were all roundy rounds. Three classes of DIRT racing and a then a Legends. I know the drill all too well.
2. Every small roundy round track is looking for that "HOOK" that will make people curious enough to buy a ticket that week.
3. A once a season dog and pony at a bull ring does a couple of things. It gets us out in the public that has no idea who we are and lets the promoter know that we are willing to help him out to do that.
4. I don't think telling a roundy round driver the negitive side of their racing is a way to win them over.
Like I said it was a thought.

G.

[Mason66]

Some great info already, did the SCCA Region your a member of help with promotional information, or how involved were they?

[craigs]

Like I said I just go to the shows, but my feeling is that the region encourages us and works with us as much as possible to give us our own run groups. But the real promo work is done by fv guys. I would name them but I would forget someone. Some of their handy work can be found at the link below.

http://www.nefv.org/home.html

[Jnovak]

First we need a new organization that does not have an essentially unlimited number of classes. I think a Formula Sports Racing Club of America could get it done.

Then make the classes INTERESTING WITH THE LOWEST COST POSSIBLE AND AS FAST AS POSSIBLE WITHIN THE DEFINED CLASS COSTS.

No production cars EVER. FOCUS FOR ALL CLASSES MUST BE FASTEST SPEED FOR THE LOWEST COST.

Start with
1. FV as the beginners class Max costs $15K. FV as it currently is it wrong IMO. Too slow and too expensive as created by the current rules. $10K 60 hp engines? Give me a break.
2. Next faster class. Max costs $30K
3. Next faster class. Max costs $60k
4. Fastest OW class. Max costs $100K
5. Sports racer 1. Max cost $50K. SR3 might be this deal.
6. Sports racer 2. Max costs $100K

Now this is just a ballpark idea of what might make some economic sense and just might get people racing again.

Flame away.

[craigs]

We could call it the USFL.

[Mason66]

First we need a new organization that does not have an essentially unlimited number of classes. I think a Formula Sports Racing Club of America could get it done.

Then make the classes INTERESTING WITH THE LOWEST COST POSSIBLE AND AS FAST AS POSSIBLE WITHIN THE DEFINED CLASS COSTS.

No production cars EVER. FOCUS FOR ALL CLASSES MUST BE FASTEST SPEED FOR THE LOWEST COST.

Start with
1. FV as the beginners class Max costs $15K. FV as it currently is it wrong IMO. Too slow and too expensive as created by the current rules. $10K 60 hp engines? Give me a break.
2. Next faster class. Max costs $30K
3. Next faster class. Max costs $60k
4. Fastest OW class. Max costs $100K
5. Sports racer 1. Max cost $50K. SR3 might be this deal.
6. Sports racer 2. Max costs $100K

Now this is just a ballpark idea of what might make some economic sense and just might get people racing again.

Flame away.

The point of this thread is to discuss ways of promoting FV on a regional and national level.

Has anyone had success with VW car clubs?

[ajpastore]

We found here in the NE that having the website really helps.

If you put yourself in the position of a being a potential racer, then try to figure out what is available, in most regions it's difficult to understand the basics of how to get involved.
When you don't know where the races are, what the different classes are, what you need to get going or who to contact, it's easy to get wrong information.

Bottom line is there are potential racers out there but they have too many things to choose from. Having a web presence with a schedule and contact information and the basics of what the class is, what the club is, and where and when you can actually see these things in action means you've potentially won over a racer just due to having this information available in one place.

Yes, it would be nice if the regions were able to do this on their websites but they have too many things to "sell"...such as volunteering, Rally Cross, Solo etc. So they are usually extremely confusing websites, that are often never updated, and never really promoting anything.

Also, often what happens is the potential racer assumes they have a an idea of what they want to race, Formula Vee is usually not on their list. But when they investigate further they understand the logistics of racing, towing, maintenance, storage etc. they end up looking more carefully at FV. This is where/when we need to be as visible and approachable as possible. The website helps with those cases as well.

It can be slow to get people into it but even one new racer a year is worth the effort.

I think we have also had some success with the Expos and Car shows. It's a lot of work but if you get everyone to pitch in, it can be easier. You may not hook a racer immediately but you can create a sort of "Halo" effect that imprints on their minds as something they should do. Yes, as Craig said, most of the time you sit around and talk to your racer buddies at these shows but that's an OK thing to do in the off season...I guess.

Most important, if you can get the potential racer to the track, to watch, help etc.. usually FV will sell itself. Get them off the internet, away from this site where the same 10 people bicker year in and year out, and help them understand that the world isn't ending and it's OK to go racing.


-AP

[Jnovak]

I guess I was wrong about the $10K 60 hp FV motors. I have been told by a couple of fFV racers that it is a $12K 60 hp motor. My bad.

[B Farnham]

I guess I was wrong about the $10K 60 hp FV motors. I have been told by a couple of fFV racers that it is a $12K 60 hp motor. My bad.

Mike V put up one of the top FV motors in the country and was asking 10k for it but to my knowledge it didn't sell. The market dictated that 10k was too much for an FV motor

[Mason66]

We found here in the NE that having the website really helps.

If you put yourself in the position of a being a potential racer, then try to figure out what is available, in most regions it's difficult to understand the basics of how to get involved.
When you don't know where the races are, what the different classes are, what you need to get going or who to contact, it's easy to get wrong information.

Bottom line is there are potential racers out there but they have too many things to choose from. Having a web presence with a schedule and contact information and the basics of what the class is, what the club is, and where and when you can actually see these things in action means you've potentially won over a racer just due to having this information available in one place.

Yes, it would be nice if the regions were able to do this on their websites but they have too many things to "sell"...such as volunteering, Rally Cross, Solo etc. So they are usually extremely confusing websites, that are often never updated, and never really promoting anything.

Also, often what happens is the potential racer assumes they have a an idea of what they want to race, Formula Vee is usually not on their list. But when they investigate further they understand the logistics of racing, towing, maintenance, storage etc. they end up looking more carefully at FV. This is where/when we need to be as visible and approachable as possible. The website helps with those cases as well.

It can be slow to get people into it but even one new racer a year is worth the effort.

I think we have also had some success with the Expos and Car shows. It's a lot of work but if you get everyone to pitch in, it can be easier. You may not hook a racer immediately but you can create a sort of "Halo" effect that imprints on their minds as something they should do. Yes, as Craig said, most of the time you sit around and talk to your racer buddies at these shows but that's an OK thing to do in the off season...I guess.

Most important, if you can get the potential racer to the track, to watch, help etc.. usually FV will sell itself. Get them off the internet, away from this site where the same 10 people bicker year in and year out, and help them understand that the world isn't ending and it's OK to go racing.


-AP

I believe here in the Mid Atlantic Anna Qualls put quit a bit if things together, similar to what your suggesting. I will check into that. Great info!

[rdfrancis]

Back in the late 60's and 70's when a lot of FV's were raced, the VW magazines would do story's on the cars, drivers, tracks and even FV car building. Today we only have a couple air-cooled magazines left but a great many of the readers are young kids who love the Beetle and they read these magazines. Go to a Bug-in car show sometime and look at the age of the people. Every age group is there and they are fast VW fanatics. I think if someone in the industry can pitch a good story to Hot VW's or VW Trends, thousands of young and old VW fans would get interested. Same thing for the car shows. Get your FV out there and talk to the people. I think they would Love it.

[Dean Curtis]

Ok the vee groups have all done a great job getting FV togeather regionally We have great folks in charge of web sites and social media. Maybe an add, listing the four great things we offer, should be placed in carting and circle track rags.
1. The thrill of open wheel racing
2 affordability
3 chance to drive-world famous tracks
4 racing road course style (kinda goes with 3 but you get it)

Maybe we should work on a sponser to to cover the add cost
We need a liink to the great start that is already in place
Thanks to those who have worked so hard on keeping FV alive!!

[rdfrancis]

Yesterday I went to a open track day at Sebring Raceway. This was a non-SCCA event that was open to the public for FREE. A good friend was sorting out his Vintage FV (a 1969 Zeitler) and I wanted to see it run. The Vee was the only open-wheeled car there and it drew a lot of attention mostly because nobody knew what it was. A couple teenagers asked me if it was some new go-kart or maybe a Mazda prototype. A 20-something guy who was driving a Z06 Corvette also had no idea what it was but said he would love to get one and run it. I texted both of them several FV websites to get them started. And finally, an older guy like me came up and said he was familiar with Formula cars but didn't know there was a VW powered class and he too wanted more info. I think the whole problem is nobody knows Formula Vee even exists or where to see one or how to get started. It's all about selling the product and communication. BTW... The Zeitler ran beautifully.

[Dean Curtis]

Back in the late 60's and 70's when a lot of FV's were raced, the VW magazines would do story's on the cars, drivers, tracks and even FV car building. Today we only have a couple air-cooled magazines left but a great many of the readers are young kids who love the Beetle and they read these magazines. Go to a Bug-in car show sometime and look at the age of the people. Every age group is there and they are fast VW fanatics. I think if someone in the industry can pitch a good story to Hot VW's or VW Trends, thousands of young and old VW fans would get interested. Same thing for the car shows. Get your FV out there and talk to the people. I think they would Love it.

We have in the past, gotten coverege from those rags. Most recently pro vee in 2000 I believe This would be another great place to advertise. Talk to the Canadains about what they do for their car shows. They are doing a great job!
Dont to forget to sponser the FV vidio effort of Steven Davis at FoumulaVee.org
In any advertisements we could offer free crew to get people inside and see for theirselfs

[rdfrancis]

If you haven't yet seen this please take time to read it. It is a great article by one of our members, Bill Bonow, about FV in New Zealand. They get kids who are moving up to FV from Karts and they can be as young as 12 years old. We would have life-long FV drivers if we could get kids (and their parents) interested in FV at that age.

http://formula-first.org/Historical/NewZealand.pdf

[Steve Bamford]

What arrive and drive programs are left for FV in the U.S. If any?

[nbrigido]

If you haven't yet seen this please take time to read it. It is a great article by one of our members, Bill Bonow, about FV in New Zealand. They get kids who are moving up to FV from Karts and they can be as young as 12 years old. We would have life-long FV drivers if we could get kids (and their parents) interested in FV at that age.

http://formula-first.org/Historical/NewZealand.pdf

The F1200 used to get all their drivers from karting. But with the politics around karting it is harder and harder to get to them, wear working with getin ad's in the Karting Magazines.

The karting clubs want their members for life and not looking for them to move up. Even though karts are probably costing more to run the FV.

[nbrigido]

We have in the past, gotten coverege from those rags. Most recently pro vee in 2000 I believe This would be another great place to advertise. Talk to the Canadains about what they do for their car shows. They are doing a great job!
Dont to forget to sponser the FV vidio effort of Steven Davis at FoumulaVee.org
In any advertisements we could offer free crew to get people inside and see for theirselfs

Thank you Dean, but don't forget every takes time and $$ to execute. People dedicating time to the cause is important, without this nothing will happen.

[nbrigido]

Here are some of the ads we are running this year in various magazines.

Of course, looking at them, I can say we can do alot better next round, but they do work.

[Parker]

Steve asked the right question from my perspective.
The only way I (a person with no race experiance and several years of tech inspecting) got involved with Vee racing was due to Dick Stewart and his rental cars. Unfortuneately it doesn't seem like a very lucrative business at least when charging rates that I can afford.
Looking back over all the years, all the cars and all the wrecks, it would have made a lot more financial sense to continue racing with him. But, I like to tinker too much, so that was worth a lot.

[nbrigido]

Steve asked the right question from my perspective.
The only way I (a person with no race experiance and several years of tech inspecting) got involved with Vee racing was due to Dick Stewart and his rental cars. Unfortuneately it doesn't seem like a very lucrative business at least when charging rates that I can afford.
Looking back over all the years, all the cars and all the wrecks, it would have made a lot more financial sense to continue racing with him. But, I like to tinker too much, so that was worth a lot.

Here comes the vicious circle, if we get more cars to the track, do Arrive and Drive programs might make more financial sense? There are probably a lot of drivers who don't know what a spark plug is. Which comes first.

[gbmetcalf]

If you haven't yet seen this please take time to read it. It is a great article by one of our members, Bill Bonow, about FV in New Zealand. They get kids who are moving up to FV from Karts and they can be as young as 12 years old. We would have life-long FV drivers if we could get kids (and their parents) interested in FV at that age.

http://formula-first.org/Historical/NewZealand.pdf

This would work. But alas you have to be 18yoa in order to race at the Glen.

[rdfrancis]

It is probably the same at most tracks for insurance reasons and lawsuits. A program to attract 18 year olds would work as well as retired bucket list folks. There is room for everyone.

[Steve Bamford]

Here comes the vicious circle, if we get more cars to the track, do Arrive and Drive programs might make more financial sense? There are probably a lot of drivers who don't know what a spark plug is. Which comes first.

I would likely not be racing today at any level if it wasn't for arrive and drive program at the FV level. No way would I have spent the extra money to run F1600 back then and FV was something I could justify, to myself at least, the expense. After I got hooked then I simply wanted more and more.

That is the reason I asked about the arrive and drive possibility. Not everyone is capable of buying and prepping a car. I am sure many have great plans and want to buy a car then start to actually go out and look at them but do not buy once they actually realize what is involved. I did read a few weeks back about seminars they had many years discussing set up, pre race prep, and other fundamentals for formula cars. Maybe see if there would be any interest for this for potential FV buyers.

I also do realize the business model is very tough for arrive and drive FV and thus why most have left.

Just giving you some ideas to think about.