The Future of Class

[Garry Sharp]

I think the alternative tire subclass Stevan is proposing is the answer. If a FV class was created with everything the same as it is now except: $100.00 spec manifold, some kind of inexpensive spec brake shoes and an alternative DOT tire option, I think there would be a rebirth of the class. People with cars but not the time, budget or driving skills of the "slicks" guys could have their own race within a race. Both classes running together would would hopefully get car counts to the point of getting a FV only run group and things just keep getting better. All it would take is an announcement of the changes on Fasttrack. If nobody shows up for the new class, everything is still the same. Wouldn't it be ironic if the DOT tire class became the most popular?

[budawe]

I don't believe Steve is proposing a new sub class. The proposal is for alternative tires be available for those who want them. This is now available through regional only programs where the competitors choose a tire by mutual agreement Existing programs in SF region and the NE Falken challenge are doing exactly what is being proposed. So far, there has been no nationwide acceptance or application in the Majors program.

[Daryl DeArman]

The proposal is for alternative tires be available for those who want them. This is now available through regional only programs where the competitors choose a tire by mutual agreement.

The current GCR allows any tire that may be fitted to the allowed rims, except radial slicks. No need to change the tire rule. What would be needed is a change in permitted wheel size when used in combination with certain DOT Radial tires.

[Matt King]

An alternate wheel and tire should be approved as a package to avoid the issue of allowing a larger wheel and then having people trying to run larger slicks on them.

[Daryl DeArman]

...which is why I said "when used in combination with certain DOT Radial tires." Go with the alternate tire approach alluded to previously and the likely reply is the infamous "Rule Adequate as Written."

Get the alternate rim size approved with the caveat that it may only be utilized when (a yet to be named) DOT Radial tire is also utlized.

[Garry Sharp]

What would be harm of another cheaper, simpler FV class? Sanctioning bodies worldwide are putting in a "Lites" or "Spec" classes along with P1 or GT to get enough cars to have a race. This is exactly the same situation except scaled way down. Many times there are more P2 or spec cars than the Premier class. This is the kind of thinking the SCCA needs instead of cutting and pasting "The Rule is Adequate as Written" over and over.

[nbrigido]

We can all sit back, give thousands of reason of why...But until WE start to do something nothing is going to change and the "Status Quo" will remain into effect until the last guy with a FV is standing, waiting for someone ot race with him.

Let's start to break apart what everyone is saying and see what works for each region. There is not wrong idea..Surprised not one has really come out and asked who or what is our target audience? I will take a shot at it and start.

-Cost of Racing, needs to be controlled where possible.
-Single series grids
-Information
-Social Media
-Marketing
-Event Schedualling
-Time
-Arrive and Drive Programs

Drivers.

-Who is the "new" Driver
-How do we get the old driver back out.

This is rough High Level, looking down. Now how to execute or what is needed to execute for each region will be the dirty work. Feel free to share success and failures, share information. An alternative tire is only a portion of the solution.

[jjgorski]

Wings and things groupings doesn't help as far as getting spectators interested in the class. If a 17 year old kid is watching a fa or p1 blast by a vee on the straight like he is going to ask daddy to buy him a formula vee.

[Garry Sharp]

FV Subclass:

DOT Tires w/appropriate wheels
Spec manifold
Spec brake shoes

Creates a somewhat equalized group of cars running concurrently with present rules cars.
Addresses the 3 main items complained about the most cost wise ($1000 manifolds, $200 brake shoes, $800 sets of tires)

Could help lead to FV only run groups.

I tried,signing off now.

Garry

"Analysis paralysis is an anti-pattern, the state of over-analyzing (or over-thinking) a situation so that a decision or action is never taken, in effect paralyzing the outcome."

[rvrrat]

100% agree !!!

[budawe]

I can say with complete authority that there is no interest on the BOD for creating new classes. That's not to say one can't be established on a regional level but I really don't think it will help participation. If anything, it will splinter the group even further.

[Garry Sharp]

I can say with complete authority that there is no interest on the BOD for creating new classes. That's not to say one can't be established on a regional level but I really don't think it will help participation. If anything, it will splinter the group even further.

Yeah, things are going so well now, doing nothing is the perfect strategy.

[Daryl DeArman]

Yeah, things are going so well now, doing nothing is the perfect strategy.

Kind of like SM splintered SS and IT.

We don't need anymore classes. However, if the handful of folks that want to continue to spend a large portion of the average FV annual budget on tires let them have at it. They can be the regional class with a dozen or two of them across the Country. Let the vast majority retain Major/National status.

[BLS]

I can say with complete authority that there is no interest on the BOD for creating new classes.

We don't need anymore classes.

I don't think Gary or anyone else is trying to create a "new" class, just a set of specs that allow a competitor to run legally with the FV class. If the first car to finish on DOT tires is 8 positions behind cars all with slicks, they would be 9th in FV.

Personally, I don't think we should confuse the issue with spec manifolds and brake shoes. Just get an alternate wheel\tire approved and go from there.

[Garry Sharp]

These "BOD" guys don't get paid do they?

[gbmetcalf]

I can say with complete authority that there is no interest on the BOD for creating new classes. That's not to say one can't be established on a regional level but I really don't think it will help participation. If anything, it will splinter the group even further.

Why relegate the racer that wants to race on radial tires to a regional level? In my opinion if we were given the option to run what Steve had proposed we would have larger car counts at both levels of competition. I think most radial racers would find a setup that works for them at any level.

G.

[Johan W]

Cost!

Let's think about the lowest-cost possible approach, with someone buying a "junker" old car at $5K that barely runs - but can be made legal. For a new entrant who has yet to turn a wheel on track, before they can enter the first event, they have to purchase:

Helmet
Suit
Gloves
Shoes
Nomex undies / balaclava
HNR
School entry
License
Medical exam / signoff
How many schools are actually available for the low-$$$ beginner? Telling them to go spend a bunch more to run a weekend with one of the "pro" schools just tells them to go elsewhere because they can't afford to run SCCA. If there's only one school in their area, and it happens to fall on a weekend that they can't attend, we've lost them. Meanwhile, the more sign-offs we accept from other organizations, the fewer entrants we have to support the schools....that's a spiral downward, IMO

Now, let's compare those costs to the guy who runs a local track day. Helmet - check. Not much else. Lots of date options from various marque clubs, right? Tech inspection consists of......??

Exactly the case here where we do track days at Cayuga with the Vees. My son-in-law in his vee and my daughter in the other vee and me occasionally chasing the Subarus and them. As per your question..NONE available for the $$$ beginner or the one that's on the fence. They even wanted me to do driving school after 279 races two years ago. Eventually they accepted my SA license.

Marshall - at least in the northeast the scca powers that be are very open to working with drivers on alternate methods of sign off for novice permits. We have several methods including club racin experience days (where non licensed drivers have their own run groups) and bracket enduro experience.

I loved my school and still think the tack time value was one of the best out there, but nowadays there are many other routes the scca locally will allow.

I encourage anyone reading this in the northeast that does not have their novice permit yet, but is interested in getting on track to pm me. I will make sure to get you in touch with the right people to help reduce your barrier to entry. Safely of course.

Craig

That would be gr8 if there's help in this form. Both did many track days now on their own mixing up with open wheels and tin tops. I would also like to think that my driver coaching is more relevant to the vee. I do not want to discredit schools but would like to mention that we had NO problem in my 40 years in formula vee allowing newbies to start a race from the back. We have no schools in SA. Just a few track days and there you go.

It makes sense ,I know in the southern Ontario region there were 5 formula vees that were sold to newbies ,in the last 2 years.
Yet not one of those 5 cars have been out since their purchase.
If any of those new owners are on the forum ,it would be nice to hear from them.
Obviously there is room for improvement on how we bring new blood into the sport.

Cheers
Desmond

Hitch Guide

EASY...make it easier to get on the track. I don't know if you have our vees in your car count. If not add two. They get out a lot...just not at our events. Cayuga is their choice for a day's fun. We now have a few gather on certain weekends racing in groups against all kinds of cars. It's also close to home. I would prefer them racing with us even if they just tag along in the back.... in the beginning.

[Johan W]

Wings and things groupings doesn't help as far as getting spectators interested in the class. If a 17 year old kid is watching a fa or p1 blast by a vee on the straight like he is going to ask daddy to buy him a formula vee.

What we now get at Cayuga is that the tin tops challenge us to race against them. They keep asking and have a lot of interest especially after my daughter drives circles around them. However the questions about licencing and entry fees seems to be the main stumble block for most. We have lots of kids sitting in our cars and asking very interesting questions.

A few weeks ago I had a young lad(Shaun) in his early twenties following me with the BRD giving him a taste of a formula vee. He now wants to help at the races. Maybe more interested in my daughter.....

[jrt750]

Hello All .

I'm new to this forum and I'm just trying to learn as much as I can about Formula vee/1200.

I raced with the VRRA "Motorcycles" for many years now I want to try four wheels.
I'm reading here you are all working on promoting your sport how about setting up a booth at a motorcycle show . Here in Canada we have a huge Motorcycle show in January each year also a few other smaller shows later in the year.


A little off topic but a question is there anyone out there that can share a basic dimensional plan for a formula vee frame. I'm still at the entry stage of this sport so I may build or buy but would like to look at all options .

Regards John

Scarb.On.Ca.

[budawe]

John I'd suggest you download a free copy of the SCCA rule book at http://www.scca.com/pages/cars-and-rules. There are some minor differences with the Canadian program and some locals on this forum can help with that.

Since we all use the same front and rear assemblies, the wheel base will dictate the length of the car. The size of the driver will determine most of the other measurements. Check out the roll bar and side intrusion rules as well. I'll say it before someone else does, but you'll likely find complete beginning cars for sale at a lower price than starting from scratch.

[fvhopeful]

John
I am located in Scarborough
Contact me at desmondennis@hotmail.ca

Cheers
Desmond

THE HITCH GUIDE

[BL13]

Hello everyone,

I'm also a new guy, not looking for advice here but thought I'd throw in my 2 cents to hopefully provide insight for your numbers and how to get more involvement.

I am a young engineer who has always loved cars and I have really seriously been getting into racing involvement high school and on. This means watching races, attending them, playing around at indoor kart tracks, and computer simulators.

A few things from an outsider trying to learn about FV at all-

1) Information is difficult to come by. anyone using a computer wants their answer, and they want it quickly and effortlessly. To get information right now, SCCA's website is like pulling teeth and provides extremely minimal information. Sites like formulavee.us, apex here, and the like help out. The problem is they are out dated, and don't really include everything a beginner wants to know. Rummaging through apex forum posts requires a lot of time and effort to get fragmented answers, and doesn't really meet the modern standards of information uptake.

Like it or not, when it comes to getting someone interested and engaged, it needs to initially require little effort to get questions answered.

1a) what are those questions? For me they are:
-Are all cars actually competitive? Which ones would I stay away from?
-What are the real costs? I can find a $3k FV with spares, but is that worth
it? How much is a set of tires on avg? Engines seem pretty expensive,
why is that? Do I really need a $10k engine to be competitive in what
should be a spec class?
-Why FV over another low cost F class, such as F500? The car is slower
so what is the draw? (My guess is competition, parts are easy to find, etc).
-What are entrance fees for FV? What about regional groups outside of
SCCA?
-Is there enough participation in my area to even be worth racing one?

There are more, but to get all of this information actually requires a lot of effort. I'm not saying I haven't answered some of that on my own already, but it just doesn't seem easily laid out.

2) Marketing and image. I've read a lot of you guys respond with going to a car show and I honestly think that would be a great way to go. Of all the car shows I've been to, I don't think I've ever seen anyone bring their race car. Doesn't seem a lot of competition for viewers? If anything, you'll spark a kid's mind who will grow up to want to drive one. Then again, maybe there's a reason nobody brings their car to a show? I'm not sure.

2a) Image. A lot of people like modernity, and would look specifically at vintage racing if they wanted vintage racing. FV's seem to have had quite a bit of
development over the years, however from an outsider, hearing that is is a
60's VW seems a bit mundane. "Why drive a vintage VW over a miata, bro?"

Not sure if everyone feels that is a problem, but it is certainly something that crossed my mind. I have no interest in miatas, but my generation definitely does. I myself understand there's more to an FV car, but maybe experiencing one would change peoples' minds? I am currently still questioning if FV would be the right fit, and if I need to spend crazy money that other classes don't require for a $10k race engine, I definitely will question the point of getting into FV. Maybe this is naive, I don't know.

The latest SCCA mag article on Laura Hayes honestly has me leaning into FV more, seeing a girl from my generation getting into it makes me think it is worth it. That was great publicity for FV.

That's my opinion there, take it as you will. Why did I take this much time to write this out? Because I have an honest interest in racing, and while I haven't made a decision what kind of car I'll get into yet, I feel FV appears to be a great class and worth promoting.

[B Farnham]

Glad you're interested in FV's, sounds like you're around my age so any questions shoot me a PM.

I'll just address the 10k engine remark as I'm about to go to bed. 10k engines DO NOT exist, one of the best engines in the country was offered up for that amount and it never sold. Thus the market dictated that 10k FV engines do not exist. The truth of the matter is that when you're getting started a 2k engine will work just fine and when you're ready to step up to nationals you can have that 2k motor turned into a top motor by upgrading the heads, manifold and carb as you go. A 4-6k engine should be very competitive.

Just hate to see the misinformation being spread by people outside the class or in other classes looking in.

Brian

[BL13]

Appreciate the information and debunking brian, I had actually read that in another thread. Looking through classifieds, there is a variety of engine pricing. I know of an engine near me built by Noble for around $1k as well, so it is difficult to understand what is actually competitive, even on a regional level.

But as you all can see, the information can be spread easily and incorrectly. Maybe a sticky thread with high transparency on costs will help someone make an informed decision? I get a lot of that may be secret and competitive information. It is racing, after all.

[BLS]

BL13,

Some of what you ask for is opinion, so hard to give a good answer.

Regarding engines, as Brian said, 10K is not the norm. If you wish to purchase a proven runoffs winning engine, then maybe. There are plenty of engines sold in the 2-7k range. the bottom is a regional engine, the top a national level engine. And for what it is worth, no other class has racing prepped engines for less.

VW beetle parts... Think of it as Porsche 356 based. Sounds better doesn't it. The 356 was based on the beetle design, even shared parts in the early years. Yes, we have drum brakes, they stop the car. And a VW transaxle, the hewland was based on the VW design. A new hewland tranny costs more than most FV's.

No other class is "low cost" when compared to FV. F5/600 and CFF cars might be found at reasonable prices, but they are not going to be winners, IMO. With FV you can get a car at a reasonable price, and add the improvements as needed for your developing skill level, at a reasonable expenditure over time.

It is a race car. Some costs are the same regardless of class. Entry fees run from $300-500 depending on region and level (regional or majors). Tow costs will be about the same. Etc.

Tires - a new set is going to run near $800 mounted and balanced. A few competitors will purchase two sets a weekend, most far less, and some will stretch a set of tires through most of a season. Used tires are available. I don't know the cost.

Car type, my opinion, most cars built after the late 80's can be reasonably competitive. Look at race results to see what is the story.

Your area participation level I do not know. the current National champion and runner up are from your area...

Hope this helps. if you did not watch the race Saturday, try to watch it when it is available for replay. First 3 cars across the line within 0.066 seconds, first 5 within 0.152 seconds. No other racing remotely like it.

Barry

[Jphoenix]

I know of an engine near me built by Noble for around $1k as well.

I'm interested in that engine for $1k, would you be willing to share the source or advertisement? A new case alone is around $900 unless the market has changed in the past year.

[crypt0zink]

Hello everyone,
2a) Image. A lot of people like modernity, and would look specifically at vintage racing if they wanted vintage racing. FV's seem to have had quite a bit of
development over the years, however from an outsider, hearing that is is a
60's VW seems a bit mundane. "Why drive a vintage VW over a miata, bro?"

I suggest getting a copy of Jim Sching's "Getting Started in Formula Vee". It will answer some of your questions and give you a good idea of the expenses involved.

You may want to take a look at Vintage Vees since you live in WI. The VSCDA (www.vscda.org) has strong 30 FV fields and we run the same tracks as SCCA (Road America, Blackhawk, Gingerman, Grattan).

The cost of running a Vintage FV (VSCDA) is lower compared to a Modern FV (SCCA) for a few reasons

1. Treaded tires cost $1000 that last more than 1 season.
2. Lower RPM = fewer engine rebuilds.
3. A mature set of rules
4. Lower entry fees and more track time
5. Cheap driver school - VSCDA SpringBrake

The big difference between Vintage and Modern FVs are Vintage run treaded tires, fans & generators and 4 shocks. Modern FVs run slicks, no fan & generator and zero-roll. The Modern Vees are slightly faster, but we have larger fields with a lot of former SCCA driver that enjoy Vintage FVs more, because of the depth of talent in VSCDA.



If your looking to move up the racing ladder and get a trophy go Modern FV SCCA, if you want to go just want to go racing go Vintage FV VSCDA.



Gingerman SpringBrake 2015

[BL13]

Thanks for the responses guys.

I didn't mean to get this thread a bit derailed into a Q&A, but the input is much appreciated.

Either way, I hope some of this provides some sort of helpful insight. Maybe not. That's my intent though!

[Marshall Mauney]

if you did not watch the race Saturday, try to watch it when it is available for replay. First 3 cars across the line within 0.066 seconds, first 5 within 0.152 seconds. No other racing remotely like it.

This is worth repeating. The Runoffs FV race was good enough to have sold tickets to outside spectators. Congratulations to Michael Varacins on a well-deserved win - and to the rest of the competitors who put on a great show of driving ability.

FV is still a great driver's class, and is the fifth-largest in SCCA (fourth if you combine the twin SRF/SRF3 classes). IMO it needs little more than publicity to remain strong for a few more years.....

[captaineddie1975]

In looking at the entry list for the NARRC runoffs this coming weekend I see NO FV entry.
I have been racing at or attending this race since 1983 and I never remember a race with no FV entries. Other than the staggering $420 entry fee (almost double of what it used to be when I started there in 83) why no FVs? They are in a race group with FF and F5 which they have been in the past so what gives?

[FVRacer21]

In looking at the entry list for the NARRC runoffs this coming weekend I see NO FV entry.
I have been racing at or attending this race since 1983 and I never remember a race with no FV entries. Other than the staggering $420 entry fee (almost double of what it used to be when I started there in 83) why no FVs? They are in a race group with FF and F5 which they have been in the past so what gives?

Palmer and Thompson.

This added 2 or 3 races to the schedule, and are Vee friendly. Also, Lime Rock is a long box track and all others in the NE are short box. So with Thompson the next weekend, you are looking at 12 hours of work to swap and swap back gearboxes. Yes, you can run a short box at Lime Rock, but it puts a stain on the engine if you don't feather at the end of the straight.

Now, throw in Thompson is also a Friday/Saturday event, you have another reason, having to take more time off from work.

This is the problem in several classes. At the last Palmer, there was not even a FF there.

Having driven both "course extensions" at Lime Rock, I had big hopes that it wake it a short box track, but somehow it did not come out right.

ChrisZ

[Stumpthumper]

As another guy who wants to go racing and has been extensively researching classes, I can offer my view on the issues with Formula Vee. I'm not a young guy, but just a family man with dreams of racing.
In all my talking with racers from all classes (and just from the look of the cars) the FV class is seen as archaic. Part of that, rightfully or wrongfully, is there seems to be an unwillingness to adapt which is why F-FST got going. I don't know if that's the truth, but it looks the case.

While you can say the vintage looks don't matter, to those of us trying to convince our families that this is where a good chunk of our cash should go, everyone needs to be excited about it. Simply put, wider wheels and tires would drastically help the image of the class. As I sit right now, I would probably rather run Formula FST, but the run numbers here in the NE are better in FV. And, the availability of inexpensive Vees makes this class my most likely form of entry. I don't mind the dated motor or weak power figures, but the wheels, brakes and suspension seem unnecessarily dated.

But don't misunderstand me, I can't wait to race them...race anything! So it's autoX for me until I pull the trigger.

-Dave

[jpetillo]

Dave, I would suggest you take us up on driving a Vee at our annual Open Wheel Driving Experience. We have run this OWDE event at NHMS for the last two years. Bring the family - get everyone involved with you running the car. I promise you that you and the family will never look at a Vee the same way again. It is really that simple!

Get in touch with one of us at NEFV.org (we have our own forum here, too - post a question) if you want to try out a Vee at OWDE, or simply to chat. John

(Edit: rdfrancis, thanks - I corrected the web site link - I should know better!)

[rdfrancis]

Nefv.org works.

[bobs66440]

Hello, I am new to the forum but not to racing. I live in Orange County, NY and raced karts locally and nationally up and down the east coast through the 80's and ran 2 seasons in SCCA FV at Pocono and Lime Rock. I am now excited to get back into it and have been doing some research and speaking to some very helpful folks from the FV fraternity as well as Challenge Cup.

I spoke to a buddy of mine who currently competes in SCCA and he was filling me in on the current cost of entry fees, etc. Wow! I can tell you in a nutshell, you want to know why participation is low? As mentioned previously, Cost! Simple. It's kind of ironic that you have a "low cost" class that, if you want to do a double regional and live say, 4 hours away, by the time you add up entry, tires, hotel, fuel, food etc. it will cost you $1000-$1500 for that weekend! Yikes! And if you have a minor technical problem that takes you out of the race early, well that's the type of thing that makes racers into ex-racers. It's what ended it for me back in the day. But I was on an extreme budget. SCCA is definitely prohibitively expensive for most budget minded racers.

So, after weighing my options, it seems my only real choice is to try the Challenge Cup. While the entry fees are still expensive and all the other travel related expenses are the same, at least you don't have the huge tire expense. And as far as I can gather, the weekends are two-day/two-race events, so the bang/buck ratio is more favorable. I won't rule out the occasional single day regional FV event, but for a new guy coming in, financially it doesn't make much sense.

Bob

[smsazzy]

I'll just throw this out here:

In 18 years, if FV stays the same, we will be racing an engine, front beam and transmission that was designed 100 years ago.

Spec tires, spec brakes, spec manifolds, etc. All great. But it is not going to get cheaper longterm with 100 year old parts.

[bobs66440]

I'll just throw this out here:

In 18 years, if FV stays the same, we will be racing an engine, front beam and transmission that was designed 100 years ago.

Spec tires, spec brakes, spec manifolds, etc. All great. But it is not going to get cheaper longterm with 100 year old parts.

Ha ha, that's funny! When you think of it that way. Wow.

[rdfrancis]

Then everything can run in Vintage!

[Jphoenix]

So, if my 1200 case is truly an original, how old must it be? 30, 40 or 50 years old? When was the last 1200 case poured?

[Daryl DeArman]

I'll just throw this out here:

In 18 years, if FV stays the same, we will be racing an engine, front beam and transmission that was designed 100 years ago.

Spec tires, spec brakes, spec manifolds, etc. All great. But it is not going to get cheaper longterm with 100 year old parts.

Nothing like a little perspective.

The first vintage race I was at they had some 3-wheeled Vtwin Morgan things. Interesting cars, but leather caps and flight goggles? Those things weren't 100 years old at the time.