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  1. #441
    Contributing Member problemchild's Avatar
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    Anyone who is playing the "trackside support" card for DOT tires that need replacing every few years is just playing the ETPF game with an agenda to select certain tires. It is such nonsense. The current level of trackside support by any vendor at most regionals is horrible and will only decline as falling double digit event car counts fall. There is no need to spend a nickel of any racers money to support that. While this aspect is being played up as a disadvantage, any independent analysis would consider it as an advantage of DOT radial tires. They can be changed at any tire shop and no trackside service is required. The adapter hub for a large Ford pickup truck even allows the wheels to be spin-balanced in seconds without special jigs or bubble balancer.

    I am still confused why Harding's "contacts", who are less than 5% of active FV racers, are more important than the FV racers who have raced on Falkens or would like to race on Falkens. Those inferior people would seem to outnumber his elite "contacts" by many multiples. Why would someone need to sample a particular tire to endorse it? How many people have tried the future Hoosier spec tire that Harding's "contacts" are endorsing? SCCA appears to be rubber-stamping whatever Hoosier tells them to do.

    It is so sad that the SCCA political process goes into ETPF mode when competitors want change, but when that political pressure builds to a point when something must be done, we break all the rules and fastrack to a solution provided by a favored vendor.

    I did not think it was possible, but SCCA seems determined to screw up the spec tire process. The best solution appears to be to get the Falken tire package approved as an alternate tire. Please write your letters.
    Last edited by problemchild; 08.23.15 at 1:19 PM.
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  3. #442
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    The FF survey indicated that trackside support is an important consideration. Including it in the RFP produced the result that the DOT radial manufacturers didn't respond. It has nothing to do with whether or not DOT radials require trackside support and everythng to do with what those responding to the survey want.
    Peter, just to clear up all the FF mystery (to me at least) perhaps you could post up the FF survey that shows a group of FF drivers were in favor of a DOT tire, but only with trackside support, as opposed to the group that wanted a racing tire with trackside support. Also helpful would be the RFP that was put out to the tire companies involved so that we can see what, specifically, the SCCA asked for. Also, who received the survey to be able to respond. There is more than one FF driver that says they were not asked, I believe.

    I would find it baffling that those that preferred a DOT tire demand trackside support for the tire, or that SCCA would do so. There is nothing I have seen that indicates such to be true other than that the SCCA took the DOT radial out of consideration since the mfgr did not respond to the RFP.

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  5. #443
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    Quote Originally Posted by problemchild View Post
    Anyone who is playing the "trackside support" card for DOT tires that need replacing every few years is just playing the ETPF game with an agenda.
    Greg,

    The logic used in your above post (partially quoted above) is spot on. Now that I know what the ETPF acronym stands for, I couldn't agree more that it appears to be apropos.

    Did SCCA really expect a huge tire company like Toyo or Falken to offer trackside support on a tire you could buy/mount just about anywhere and only needed once in a blue moon (literally) to perhaps a dozen or so competitors?

  6. #444
    Contributing Member problemchild's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daryl DeArman View Post
    Greg,

    The logic used in your above post (partially quoted above) is spot on. Now that I know what the ETPF acronym stands for, I couldn't agree more that it appears to be apropos.

    Did SCCA really expect a huge tire company like Toyo or Falken to offer trackside support on a tire you could buy/mount just about anywhere and only needed once in a blue moon (literally) to perhaps a dozen or so competitors?
    Yes, the process for selecting the spec tire for both classes appears to be totally tailored to the favored vendor. I am fully supportive of the favored vendor being selected in a fair fight, but this appears not to be the case. Oh well ..... should we expect anything more at this point.
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  7. #445
    Contributing Member Steve Bamford's Avatar
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    I would have no issue if the preferred SCCA supplier actually provided a similar tire to the one most desired based upon polls I see but seemingly they haven't and give the option that fits the manufacture first before the customer (you and I).

    I realize that SCCA does not hold any value in Internet polls however they seem to cover the demographics who actually care about racing so not sure how you can totally disgaurd them. I guess if it doesn't suit the path Scca wants to go down then it is an easy way out to say they are not representative to actual racers. I find it hard to believe but those making the decisions for racers seem to be able to convince themselves it is the correct point of action.

    Once again I say, careful what you ask the SCCA for as you may end up with something you don't want.
    Steve Bamford

  8. #446
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    Todd Butler: "... Internet polls while sometimes entertaining don’t mean squat." Did you read the post from someone making the final decision?

    You guys have no idea what was behind the FF participant requests for track side service. May be it was disgruntled Toyo users who wanted something better in the way of service.

    Optional wheel/tire theme:

    What is the requirement for an optional wheel/tire choice in the GCR? Has any group been denied the option in a Region's Supps? Is this a difficult think to accomplish administratively?

    Does the current use of Falken tires extend beyond the NE SCCA Division?

    Brian

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hardingfv32 View Post
    Does the current use of Falken tires extend beyond the NE SCCA Division?
    Yes.

  10. #448
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    What SCCA Region and/or Division?

    Brian

  11. #449
    Senior Member Rolling Stone's Avatar
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    The FALKENS are the way to go if they last as long as this tread...errr I mean thread!

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  13. #450
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hardingfv32 View Post
    What SCCA Region and/or Division?

    Brian
    Your questions was "Does the current use of Falken tires extend beyond the NE SCCA Division?"

    Yes, there is plenty of use/data with our neighbors to the North. A driver a stones' throw from me, who you happened to know quite well, has been using them a bit this season as well. I assumed you would know that.

  14. #451
    Contributing Member Steve Bamford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hardingfv32 View Post
    Todd Butler: "... Internet polls while sometimes entertaining don’t mean squat." Did you read the post from someone making the final decision?

    You guys have no idea what was behind the FF participant requests for track side service. May be it was disgruntled Toyo users who wanted something better in the way of service.

    Optional wheel/tire theme:

    What is the requirement for an optional wheel/tire choice in the GCR? Has any group been denied the option in a Region's Supps? Is this a difficult think to accomplish administratively?

    Does the current use of Falken tires extend beyond the NE SCCA Division?

    Brian
    Yes as usual you are right Brian. Disgruntled Toyo users who are getting 6 weekends plus out of their tires are upset with track side service. I'm always upset that I don't have to go see tire track side service and spend extra money to flip or change my tires after every 2 or three sessions like I do with the current open tire program.

    Keep it up as you have ZERO idea of what you are speaking about. When you do this it simply discredits every post you write so if that is what you are trying to accomplish then it is working.
    Steve Bamford

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  16. #452
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    So what is the answer....

    What is the requirement for an optional wheel/tire choice in the GCR? Has any group been denied the option in a Region's Supps? Is this a difficult think to accomplish administratively? Has anyone been prohibited from using Falcons at a SCCA event?

    Brian

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    Well, as usual this discussion has gone south. This is one of the reasons that decision makers in SCCA discount the dialog on these forums. For every keyboard commando, there are dozens of competitors who don't even bother with these forums. I seriously doubt that this forum membership is close to 5% of total participation. Does anyone on this tread have a copy of the FF survey that was taken? Did anyone actually take it? So many opinions, so few facts.

    The SCCA rule process has been in place for many years and it does take time to go through the process. This is a member driven process and while some may think it's ETPF, what's the alternative?

    Lunch is over, I'm going back to the shop and get something done.
    The above post is for reference only and your results may vary. This post is not intended to reflect the views and opinions of SCCA and should not be considered an analysis or opinion of the rules written in the GCR. thanks, Brian McCarthy, BOD area 9.

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    Quote Originally Posted by budawe View Post
    Does anyone on this tread have a copy of the FF survey that was taken?
    Why don't you provide us a copy of the FF survey.... or are you too busy in the shop?

    Brian

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Bamford View Post
    .... I'm always upset that I don't have to go see tire track side service and spend extra money to flip or change my tires after every 2 or three sessions like I do with the current open tire program...
    Maybe that is the issue... FF competitors did not believe the durability claims being made about the Toyo and felt that there would still be a requirement to service them the same as the current tire.

    That fact remains that the survey demonstrated a requirement for service. What is your theory? Maybe a conspiracy?

    Brian

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    Contributing Member Steve Bamford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hardingfv32 View Post
    Maybe that is the issue... FF competitors did not believe the durability claims being made about the Toyo and felt that there would still be a requirement to service them the same as the current tire.

    That fact remains that the survey demonstrated a requirement for service. What is your theory? Maybe a conspiracy?

    Brian
    Now that is a relevant post.

    Honestly I think the business relationship between Hoosier was too hard to break and brought money into the SCCA. I don't have the inside track so do not know. The only real info is the info I see here on polls from Apexspeed which I trust.

    I do not know the whole story but will try to contact Toyo myself this week to try to get some info from them as I want to know their side of the story.
    Steve Bamford

  21. #457
    Senior Member nbrigido's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hardingfv32 View Post
    Why don't you provide us a copy of the FF survey.... or are you too busy in the shop?

    Brian
    Brain, even for you this is stretching it. You always say you work with facts..right know it is speculation that is muddying up the dark waters. Last thing we need if you really care about the future of FV.

    Change is going to come, weather we like it or not.

    Time you start designing a car around a set of the Radials, maybe your current drivers are happy on the Hosier Slicks and will continue to do so. Why not be ahead of the curve and extract the final ounce of performance from the Falken Package? You might get some supports with the cars for next season.

    It is fun on the Dark side....
    Last edited by nbrigido; 08.24.15 at 5:48 AM.
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  22. #458
    Senior Member nbrigido's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hardingfv32 View Post
    Maybe that is the issue... FF competitors did not believe the durability claims being made about the Toyo and felt that there would still be a requirement to service them the same as the current tire.

    That fact remains that the survey demonstrated a requirement for service. What is your theory? Maybe a conspiracy?

    Brian
    During this weekends F1200 races at Calabogie i went up and had a discussion with the "tire" track side support.

    The track side support is an independent distributor that travels with the REGION not the series and supports ALL tires for all series.

    I asked him how many Falken's he had with him, 1 Set, the same set he started the 2014 season with! The last set he sold was at the before the 2014 season begun.

    So manufacture is going to be able to financially commit to track side support just to have a front row seat to watch some races.
    Noel Brigido
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  23. #459
    Senior Member nbrigido's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by problemchild View Post
    Anyone who is playing the "trackside support" card for DOT tires that need replacing every few years is just playing the ETPF game with an agenda to select certain tires. It is such nonsense. The current level of trackside support by any vendor at most regionals is horrible and will only decline as falling double digit event car counts fall. There is no need to spend a nickel of any racers money to support that. While this aspect is being played up as a disadvantage, any independent analysis would consider it as an advantage of DOT radial tires. They can be changed at any tire shop and no trackside service is required. The adapter hub for a large Ford pickup truck even allows the wheels to be spin-balanced in seconds without special jigs or bubble balancer.

    I am still confused why Harding's "contacts", who are less than 5% of active FV racers, are more important than the FV racers who have raced on Falkens or would like to race on Falkens. Those inferior people would seem to outnumber his elite "contacts" by many multiples. Why would someone need to sample a particular tire to endorse it? How many people have tried the future Hoosier spec tire that Harding's "contacts" are endorsing? SCCA appears to be rubber-stamping whatever Hoosier tells them to do.

    It is so sad that the SCCA political process goes into ETPF mode when competitors want change, but when that political pressure builds to a point when something must be done, we break all the rules and fastrack to a solution provided by a favored vendor.

    I did not think it was possible, but SCCA seems determined to screw up the spec tire process. The best solution appears to be to get the Falken tire package approved as an alternate tire. Please write your letters.
    At the end of all this, we know what we want lets get the letters in a hope for the best. If anything the poll that was conducted on apexspeed, shows a majority, is interested in a DOT tire option (Not the Spec Option). Lets get those letters in, and push for the best outcome.

    Certain people are going to try and delay the process with "did you know this" " my friend told me this" "the majority says this". We can go in an endless loop for years.

    Once the stage is set and there is an optional package, then it is up to each competitor to decide what is right for him/her.
    Noel Brigido
    Formula 1200 / FTDA

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    The volume of letters looks promising in total numbers but not widely distributed from within the total community. Please pass the word.

    The FF survey was sent out to 60 members, maybe one of those folks could send in a copy. The results of the survey are in the lastest Fastrac, under the BOD notes.
    The above post is for reference only and your results may vary. This post is not intended to reflect the views and opinions of SCCA and should not be considered an analysis or opinion of the rules written in the GCR. thanks, Brian McCarthy, BOD area 9.

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    The FF survey was sent out to 60 members...
    That would be a smaller sample than responded to the apex FF thread survey (64).

    I remain completely baffled.

  26. #462
    Contributing Member problemchild's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BLS View Post
    That would be a smaller sample than responded to the apex FF thread survey (64).

    I remain completely baffled.
    The process is flawed. If they use the same process as for the FF spec tire, they will eliminate Falken on technicalities before any decisions get made. There will be one option, regardless of what the members want.
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  27. #463
    Senior Member Amon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by problemchild View Post
    The process is flawed. If they use the same process as for the FF spec tire, they will eliminate Falken on technicalities before any decisions get made. There will be one option, regardless of what the members want.

    Greg,

    Then what's the point in communicating our wishes to the SCCA?

    Mark

  28. #464
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    Let me start by saying I'm all for a harder tire that lasts longer, spec or not. With that being said, I see many issues with a DOT tire for formula vee. Having spoken to many front runners, we are all in agreement that this would be a terrible mistake for FV.

    The goal of FV is a drivers class with some allowable development. The focus is on driving. A DOT tire is a complete contradiction to that principal. Let me explain:

    DOT tires have a much more gradual traction / slip angle curve. In other words, it's much easier to drive at the limit of the tire, thus REDUCING the influence of driver skill. Secondly, the larger tires create more aero drag, allowing the following car to be sucked along, even if the following car is off the pace. Having spoken privately to several who have run the falken tires, they agreed that it was boring....the car would just slip until enough speed was scrubbed that the car would corner.

    The above reason is why many drivers are in favor of this type of tire...it takes driving out of the equation and allows those normally not capable of keeping up able to keep up. Of course they will be in favor of this type of situation. Also, the forgivness of such a tire makes driving less stressfull and fearfull, which again to the less skilled would be translated as more fun. But for those who enjoy the challenge of being right on the knife edge (what driving race cars is supposed to reward), it will be quite boring.

    Artificially inducing pack racing by increasing the draft and removing driver skill is not the way to increase car counts in FV.

    I also do not feel that it is anybody's right to lobby for such a radical change in direction of the class. Going from a racing purpose slick to a DOT street tire is a RADICAL change. Many of us have rather large investments in the class AS IS...not just financial, but non-monetary investments as well. We chose the class for what it was and is. For a group to dictate such a direction change of rules that have been in place for the life of the class with no data to support their theories seems very short sighted. We all want racing to be cheaper and to be racing against huge fields. FV remains one of the cheapest classes in SCCA, and is currently still one of the largest. FV is not broken....racing in general is broken. DOT tires do not fix racing in general.

    Again, I'm all in favor of adopting a much harder tire...heck, give us rock hard tires that make it feel like driving in the rain...just don't ruin the experience by putting on a street tire.

    I'm sure my opinion won't be very popular on this forum, but I'm simply stating what many have told me privately. I'm just passionate enough about the class to put it out there in public and take my beating here while others choose to remain silent. I encourage those who oppose my opinion to talk privately with some of the respected and experienced FV drivers and you'll see the agreement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Sport Engineering View Post
    Let me start by saying I'm all for a harder tire that lasts longer, spec or not. With that being said, I see many issues with a DOT tire for formula vee. Having spoken to many front runners, we are all in agreement that this would be a terrible mistake for FV.

    The goal of FV is a drivers class with some allowable development. The focus is on driving. A DOT tire is a complete contradiction to that principal. Let me explain:

    DOT tires have a much more gradual traction / slip angle curve. In other words, it's much easier to drive at the limit of the tire, thus REDUCING the influence of driver skill. Secondly, the larger tires create more aero drag, allowing the following car to be sucked along, even if the following car is off the pace. Having spoken privately to several who have run the falken tires, they agreed that it was boring....the car would just slip until enough speed was scrubbed that the car would corner.

    The above reason is why many drivers are in favor of this type of tire...it takes driving out of the equation and allows those normally not capable of keeping up able to keep up. Of course they will be in favor of this type of situation. Also, the forgivness of such a tire makes driving less stressfull and fearfull, which again to the less skilled would be translated as more fun. But for those who enjoy the challenge of being right on the knife edge (what driving race cars is supposed to reward), it will be quite boring.

    Artificially inducing pack racing by increasing the draft and removing driver skill is not the way to increase car counts in FV.

    I also do not feel that it is anybody's right to lobby for such a radical change in direction of the class. Going from a racing purpose slick to a DOT street tire is a RADICAL change. Many of us have rather large investments in the class AS IS...not just financial, but non-monetary investments as well. We chose the class for what it was and is. For a group to dictate such a direction change of rules that have been in place for the life of the class with no data to support their theories seems very short sighted. We all want racing to be cheaper and to be racing against huge fields. FV remains one of the cheapest classes in SCCA, and is currently still one of the largest. FV is not broken....racing in general is broken. DOT tires do not fix racing in general.

    Again, I'm all in favor of adopting a much harder tire...heck, give us rock hard tires that make it feel like driving in the rain...just don't ruin the experience by putting on a street tire.

    I'm sure my opinion won't be very popular on this forum, but I'm simply stating what many have told me privately. I'm just passionate enough about the class to put it out there in public and take my beating here while others choose to remain silent. I encourage those who oppose my opinion to talk privately with some of the respected and experienced FV drivers and you'll see the agreement.
    Mike,

    The drivers aren't in favor of this tire because it makes the Vee's easier to drive, but rather due to the cost savings that are provided by purchasing ONE set of tires over
    a period of three years, rather than three weeks with our current situation. If the cars are easier to drive, then please explain why those who are fast on slicks are the same drivers who are fast on the radials? If Hoosier could bring out tires similiar to the old VeeRocks, then that might fly with the majority in the class. But up to now, I see no effort or financial desire on Hoosier's part to do so. I don't blame Hoosier for not doing so as it would effect their bottom line.

    I also have no faith in the SCCA who has watched our numbers decline yet seem to be more concerned about Enterprise classes than old stalwarts such as vee's. We still have a good class based on our numbers but we must find a way to control costs or the class will cease to exist in another 15 - 20 years. I'm also tired of the old guard who seem to dictate the direction of this class without considering the concerns of many drivers who have large investments themselves, but are tired of spending the money on tires and other items ( manifolds etc.) when it shouldn't be neccesary. Maybe the radial isn't the end all be all but at least those who are using them are trying to make a difference rather accept the status quo!

    Mark

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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Sport Engineering View Post
    Let me start by saying I'm all for a harder tire that lasts longer, spec or not. With that being said, I see many issues with a DOT tire for formula vee. Having spoken to many front runners, we are all in agreement that this would be a terrible mistake for FV.

    The goal of FV is a drivers class with some allowable development. The focus is on driving. A DOT tire is a complete contradiction to that principal. Let me explain:

    DOT tires have a much more gradual traction / slip angle curve. In other words, it's much easier to drive at the limit of the tire, thus REDUCING the influence of driver skill. Secondly, the larger tires create more aero drag, allowing the following car to be sucked along, even if the following car is off the pace. Having spoken privately to several who have run the falken tires, they agreed that it was boring....the car would just slip until enough speed was scrubbed that the car would corner.

    The above reason is why many drivers are in favor of this type of tire...it takes driving out of the equation and allows those normally not capable of keeping up able to keep up. Of course they will be in favor of this type of situation. Also, the forgivness of such a tire makes driving less stressfull and fearfull, which again to the less skilled would be translated as more fun. But for those who enjoy the challenge of being right on the knife edge (what driving race cars is supposed to reward), it will be quite boring.

    Artificially inducing pack racing by increasing the draft and removing driver skill is not the way to increase car counts in FV.

    I also do not feel that it is anybody's right to lobby for such a radical change in direction of the class. Going from a racing purpose slick to a DOT street tire is a RADICAL change. Many of us have rather large investments in the class AS IS...not just financial, but non-monetary investments as well. We chose the class for what it was and is. For a group to dictate such a direction change of rules that have been in place for the life of the class with no data to support their theories seems very short sighted. We all want racing to be cheaper and to be racing against huge fields. FV remains one of the cheapest classes in SCCA, and is currently still one of the largest. FV is not broken....racing in general is broken. DOT tires do not fix racing in general.

    Again, I'm all in favor of adopting a much harder tire...heck, give us rock hard tires that make it feel like driving in the rain...just don't ruin the experience by putting on a street tire.

    I'm sure my opinion won't be very popular on this forum, but I'm simply stating what many have told me privately. I'm just passionate enough about the class to put it out there in public and take my beating here while others choose to remain silent. I encourage those who oppose my opinion to talk privately with some of the respected and experienced FV drivers and you'll see the agreement.
    I think every driver needs his/her opinion. I don't think any one is looking to "Dictate Change" the message is have an "option". This will allow drivers that want to compete using a Race Designed Slick or and Option approved Radial Package.

    Let's remember, many other places in the world FV racing is on Radials, this is not new or Radical. Just different.

    Having the option will have a positive influence in FV/F1200 racing.

    BTW, Very Few FV races i have been in are boring. IF your fighting for a position 1st or 10th, it is never boring, we are doing what we enjoy.
    Noel Brigido
    Formula 1200 / FTDA

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  34. #467
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    Mike,

    So why is not OK for the majority of the class to want a tire that lasts three years, but the front runners you speak of don't. Is it because your tire bills are much less than average? Is it that maybe you wont be so dominant? Most of the Formula Vee world runs on radials, some ball joints, disc brakes and god forbid water cooled VW motors.

    Why don't you or some other "front runner" take Greg Rice's offer and show up in New Jersey. Free room, free tires, $100 towards gas and see what the tires are like instead of telling us how bad they are without even running on them..

    Formula Vee is everyone's class, from the guy that finishes dead last, with an unremovable smile on his face, to the guy standing on the top of the podium at the Runoffs, with that same unremovable smile.

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  36. #468
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    Heres a copy of Greg's Post:

    Originally Posted by problemchild
    Once again ..... here's my FV National Champion enticement offer.
    I don't have any caviar but I will offer up a surplus bottle of Steve's champagne.
    I will loan them a very good legal intake manifold.
    I will provide them with a hotel room for Friday and Saturday night.
    I will pay for the tire rental.
    I will pay for their first $100 of race fuel

    I believe that Saturday's dinner is provided. If they get there and pay the entry fee, they should have no real costs during the event. If there is something else we need to offer, let me know, and I'll try and put it together.

    Anyone interested in either offer should email me, as I will not be visiting this site much over the next little while. Any one who gives the tires/Series a shot will be hooked. Guaranteed!

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    Interesting perspective Mike V.

    Having raced on tires with more grip than a hoosier R25 and tires that were slick-as-snot it was my experience and observation that it was much more difficult to go fast on the slick-as-snot tires. Mistakes cost you a lot more time. Sticky tires still cost you time but mask a lot of the little errors.

    When comparing bias tires (current slick) to a radial. The radial doesn't give as much feedback (audible and feel) before it lets go, while a bias tire gives more warning.

    Put a less grippy tire on it and the driver becomes a larger factor (kind of like racing in the rain) while the budget becomes a smaller factor.


    That's only a detriment to those at the front largely because of their budget. Those of you at the front mostly because of skill will still be at the front and will have more money to explore other little things to maintain a competitive advantage. No need to worry about it rewarding the less skilled.

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  39. #470
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daryl DeArman View Post
    Interesting perspective Mike V.

    Having raced on tires with more grip than a hoosier R25 and tires that were slick-as-snot it was my experience and observation that it was much more difficult to go fast on the slick-as-snot tires. Mistakes cost you a lot more time. Sticky tires still cost you time but mask a lot of the little errors.

    When comparing bias tires (current slick) to a radial. The radial doesn't give as much feedback (audible and feel) before it lets go, while a bias tire gives more warning.

    Put a less grippy tire on it and the driver becomes a larger factor (kind of like racing in the rain) while the budget becomes a smaller factor.


    That's only a detriment to those at the front largely because of their budget. Those of you at the front mostly because of skill will still be at the front and will have more money to explore other little things to maintain a competitive advantage. No need to worry about it rewarding the less skilled.
    I'm all in favor of a much harder tire that has less grip.

    Don't confuse total grip with ease of driving. Street tires by nature are designed to have a very linear and flat friction vs. slip angle curve. The intent is to allow grandma driving to the store to easily obtain maximum grip regardless of how much she is turning the steering wheel. Turn it too much, and the tires don't loose any grip.

    Race tires, on the other hand, produce much more grip but over a much narrower slip angle. Too much steering input or a little too much sliding in the back and the grip drops off like a rock. It's MUCH harder to keep a racing slick operating at it's ideal slip angle (therefore maximum grip) then the tire designed for grandma.

    A tire can have lower overall grip, and still be easier to drive. Its all a matter of the shape of the force / slip angle curve.

    If we really want it to be about driving, then the curve would be extremely peaky - friction force build very rapidly with slip angle, then once maximum is achieved, it drops just as sharply. This is the exact opposite of what a street tire is designed to do.

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  41. #471
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    AZENIS RT615K TIRE

    Street-Legal Motorsports Performance and a DOT-Approved Track Tire
    Not your Grandma's tire...

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    There have been lots of folks expressing their experience here and I haven't seen anyone jump on them. Yeah it gets heated sometimes, just like our races, but if anyone out there has raced on the falkens and dislikes them, it would very useful for everyone if they feel free to post their experience here. I and many others here, apparently, have been swayed to supporting the falkens by the many positive reviews we're read here. It is most definitely not impossible to sway me the other way if some equally well supported negative reviews are brought up. I know lots of vee guys dislike the forums and the heated discussions that come up every now and then, but like it or not, it's the only way we have to communicate together as a class. Or we can wait for the F/SR meeting at the runoffs once a year and hope anything comes out of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Sport Engineering View Post
    I'm all in favor of a much harder tire that has less grip.
    Glad to hear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Sport Engineering
    Don't confuse total grip with ease of driving. Street tires by nature are designed to have a very linear and flat friction vs. slip angle curve. The intent is to allow grandma driving to the store to easily obtain maximum grip regardless of how much she is turning the steering wheel. Turn it too much, and the tires don't loose any grip.
    I'm not confused.

    I was comparing a super grippy slick and a slick-as-snot slick.
    I later compared a bias bly tire to a radial tire and their feedback and slip angles.

    You compared a street tire to a race tire.

    What we are talking about here is comparing a medium/hard bias slick to a radial street tire. While they may be quite different, I believe that if you choose to actually test on the radial street tire, you may find that going fast on them doesn't exactly remove the driver from the equation.

    Lots of folks will value your opinion, please find time to test on them before you decide they are a terrible idea or that they largely will remove the driver from the equation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by grapefarmeral View Post
    Mike,

    So why is not OK for the majority of the class to want a tire that lasts three years, but the front runners you speak of don't. Is it because your tire bills are much less than average? Is it that maybe you wont be so dominant? Most of the Formula Vee world runs on radials, some ball joints, disc brakes and god forbid water cooled VW motors.

    Why don't you or some other "front runner" take Greg Rice's offer and show up in New Jersey. Free room, free tires, $100 towards gas and see what the tires are like instead of telling us how bad they are without even running on them..

    Formula Vee is everyone's class, from the guy that finishes dead last, with an unremovable smile on his face, to the guy standing on the top of the podium at the Runoffs, with that same unremovable smile.
    Of course it's ok for the majority of the class to want a tire to last 3 years. Who wouldn't? I would love it. But I, and many others, are not willing to sacrifice our driving experience of the slick to do so. I don't need to test them to understand the differences and physics indicates the increase draft alone handicaps anyone leading.

    Again, I'm all in favor of a long lasting tire...but it needs to keep the same driving dynamics of what we currently have.

    I would gladly come try the Falkens, but doing so this close to the runoffs on short notice would be foolish on my part. Next season I will make it a point to do so. FV isn't everyone's class, but it's as close to everone's class as racing can get. It takes a certain amount of means and dedication to participate. That's the unfortunate reality of racing. I'm all in favor of reducing this as much as possible...but not at the sacrifce of the current driving dynamics. For many of us, this is as high of a performing car we get to race and are not willing to accept a reduction in performance. What's the appeal of FV if we are bascially at street car level performance?

    Again, I would gladdly accept a spec tire that performed like a true race car tire with much longer life then we currently have if it reduced tire bills.

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  46. #475
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Sport Engineering View Post
    I don't need to test them to understand the differences and physics indicates the increase draft alone handicaps anyone leading.
    Agreed...and the reason I detested racing a FV at Cal Speedway.

    Daytona will also handicap anybody leading by a small margin but I'm guessing you'll be there trying to make the best of it

    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Sport Engineering
    What's the appeal of FV if we are bascially at street car level performance?
    The cost and the competitiveness. The FV performance is already below many street car levels of performance....lowering it another couple percent isn't s deal breaker if the racing is closer and the costs cheaper. More people will be okay with racing something with a 28mm carb, a 4sp where you have a 40% split between the 2 usable gears, drum brakes and antiquated suspension.

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  48. #476
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    Back to Greg's wording for the request. It is laid out clearly. There should be no argument from either party. nor the SCCA

    Alternate FV Tire

    This is NOT a request for a spec tire. Please consider that as a totally separate issue.

    This is a request that SCCA approve the use of an alternate FV tire. This tire is already being used in different FV race series in Canada and the USA. It is clearly slower than the open racing tires used in FV now but is more consistent, more durable, and more cost effective. It is a different size and construction than allowed by FV rules and requires different wheels. Minimum weight and track rules get adjusted, but the operational FV remains identical.

    Allowing this tire would allow more crossover between competitors to more SCCA events and increase FV participation numbers. As it stands now, in order for those racers to participate in a SCCA race without specifically accommodating supplementary rules, they need to run illegally as a FV, or be moved to FS. The FS option is dangerous and not at all inviting

    This rule change will help combat declining car counts with no effect on what is happening at the front of the grid. It can have an immediate effect if implemented promptly and be totally independent of any spec tire discussion.

    Specifics:
    Tire: Falken Azenis RT 615 (no suffix) or suffix K 95/60/R14
    Wheel: Steel 14" X 6" with minimum weight of 12 lbs. No spacers, shims or adapters.
    Adjusted minimum weight: 1075 lbs
    Adjusted track: Front 54 1/2", plus/minus 1/4", Rear 52 5/8", plus 7/8", minus 5/8"

    Links:
    http://www.challengecupseries.com/
    http://formula1200.com/
    Noel Brigido
    Formula 1200 / FTDA

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    Quote Originally Posted by Amon View Post
    Greg,

    Then what's the point in communicating our wishes to the SCCA?

    Mark
    Mark. That is the way I feel today too.

    Budawe keeps telling us that this is a member driven club, but several board members created parameters that only their preferred vendor can meet, thereby circumventing the process. They eliminated the Toyo option from the FF process, despite it being the tire of choice of a large portion of the FF community. They are unapologetic in other threads on this forum.

    They will surely do the same with the Falken package. It does not seem to matter if 75% or 40% or 10% of the community wants that the Falkens. They will not be considered.

    The good news is that a very small but powerful group of the SCCA leadership are terrified of affordable DOT tire options and will pull out every dirty trick to keep their preferred vendor. They are that worried! Small consolation but it is only a matter of time.

    After all the work I have done for 30 years in the name of reducing the cost of racing by campaigning to bring in spec tires, it absolutely tears my heart out to advise people to reject the current spec tire proposals. Accepting a 20% improvement when a 100 or 200 or 300% improvement is obtainable is just giving in to the bullies.

    I hope people send in letters in favor of allowing the Falken package as an alternate tire. In the absence of any leadership trying to find a compromise solution that will bring a middle ground option into play, this will continue to play out as "us against them", and leave half the community disenfranchised. Atleast an alternate tire would allow both disenfranchised crowds to stay involved until some compromise solution can be found, or one group fades away. It is my hope that the SCCA power brokers will suffer some signs of conscience and allow the alternate tire option.

    In the big picture, those that believe in the cost effectiveness of affordable DOT tires, need to seek out other promoters and race organizers that can provide single-class racing. SCCA power brokers think they have a monopoly, but there is clearly better formula car racing outside of SCCA now than in it. Whether it is SCCA regional events, vintage racing, Narra, Nasa, Pro series, etc, most of these organizers will welcome groups that can bring 15-20 entries to their events. As SCCA expands into being a Pro Racing promoter, rather than finding compromises to reduce costs and enfranchise current customers, there will be lots of opportunities at lots of venues.

    Thankyou to all those people who have fought fairly to reduce costs and try and return FV to a dominant position as the entry class for regular people. I still think the goal is obtainable but it's not going to happen as quickly as it should.

    Cheers!
    Greg Rice, RICERACEPREP.com
    F1600 Arrive-N-Drive for FRP and SCCA, FC SCCA also. Including Runoffs
    2020 & 2022 F1600 Champion, 2020 SCCA FF Champion, 2021 SCCA FC Champion,
    2016 F2000 Champion, Follow RiceRacePrep on Instagram.

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  51. #478
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Sport Engineering View Post

    DOT tires have a much more gradual traction / slip angle curve. In other words, it's much easier to drive at the limit of the tire, thus REDUCING the influence of driver skill. Secondly, the larger tires create more aero drag, allowing the following car to be sucked along, even if the following car is off the pace. Having spoken privately to several who have run the falken tires, they agreed that it was boring....the car would just slip until enough speed was scrubbed that the car would corner.
    With all due respect I could not disagree more with this comment. In 35 years of racing that includes many different types of cars I have always found the DOT tires to be much more difficult to drive fast than the racing slick. They have a narrower window at the limit of adhesion then a racing slick does. The line between staying just under the limit and going over the limit is really small on the DOT tire. Kind of like racing in the rain, I think it takes much more skill to be fast on the DOT then the Slick. I have seen some really fast drivers go from racing slicks to DOT tires and fail miserably.
    Scott

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamond Formula Cars View Post
    With all due respect I could not disagree more with this comment. In 35 years of racing that includes many different types of cars I have always found the DOT tires to be much more difficult to drive fast than the racing slick. They have a narrower window at the limit of adhesion then a racing slick does. The line between staying just under the limit and going over the limit is really small on the DOT tire. Kind of like racing in the rain, I think it takes much more skill to be fast on the DOT then the Slick. I have seen some really fast drivers go from racing slicks to DOT tires and fail miserably.

    I couldn't agree more.

    I respect Mike V's accomplishments. I don't know him, but I suspect I would respect him as a person as well. So I hope he doesn't mistake any of my debating as personal attacks.

    As to him not willing to test the Falken package prior to the RunOffs. I don't blame him. In his shoes, I wouldn't either. In light of that I believe he should reserve passing judgement about what it is like to race on DOT tires (or crappy slicks) until he's done a fair bit of it.

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    http://racingcardynamics.com/racing-...lateral-force/

    The link above contains a simple article summarized from milliken's race car vehicle dynamics book. It demonstrates and contains a plot of friction force vs. Slip angle for several tire types. The gentle curve of the street tire is easier to drive at the limit, period. This is actual data to support the theory, not seat of the pants opinion.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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