Hoosier Spec Tire for FV

[problemchild]

....Racing on the radials is the most fun I have ever had racing. ...
Jack Maloney ..... FV59

Apparently, there is a very small group of people that think bolting on the Falken package will be some horrific experience. None of them have tried them. Brian seems to have passed the torch .....

[craigs]

Noel - I think we agree we need a lower cost solution to the "spec" slick we currently have.

Where we (and many others in the thread) disagree is whether a DOT tire should be the spec tire. Even if the backing of the DOT spec tire quadrupled, support for it would still be half of what it is for a spec slick based on the survey data.

We can take more surveys, we can write more letters, but at this point I think FV has to act on their own and provide a solution that the majority supports. As many people have said here the forums do not represent the masses and hand picked letters do not either. The closest data we have that represents the community is the survey. Not too far of a leap to say that they survey respondents overall support a spec slick that provides more value than the current "spec" 55B.

We have lost three years and cost ourselves thousands of dollars because we have not developed a more cost effective slick that the community wanted. Let's get one and develop a plan for transitioning to it during the 2016 season.

Craig

[maloneyjack]

Is there anyone out there that has tried the Falken package that is not in favor of it? It seems to me that the naysayers are those who have not given it a try.

[problemchild]

Is there anyone out there that has tried the Falken package that is not in favor of it? It seems to me that the naysayers are those who have not given it a try.

They should come to NJ in 2 weeks. My sponsorship offer will more than pay for the tire rental.

We had a Canadian guy in 1981 who did not like the package and used his $8K sponsorship package to race in the states.

[Jean-Sebastien Stoezel]

I have been using the Falkens for 6 seasons now, it was introduced with WCMA 7 seasons ago.
I have never raced with anything else on a FV (I did race with slicks in gokarts though).

I am globally in favor of a cheaper tire option and I am fine with the Falken. Though I wish we had gone with a 15" instead of the 14". There is limited choice in this niche size of tire, and we are always at the mercy of tire manufacturers, who could discontinue the Falken in this size (we switched to the Falken when Toyo or Yokohama discontinued the tire we had been using).

There's only one thing that bothers me with the pro-Falken people here - please do not see this as being antagonist. I keep reading that the tire will last years. It would better and more accurate I think to talk about cycles.
With WCMA we typically race 5 week-ends per season. That is 6 races, 2 practices and 1 qualifying per week-end. Tires wear quick at this pace (typically just over 1/32 of tread tire per week-end) and most if not all the competitors get brand new tires at the beginning of the season. I have tested back to back brand new and one season old tires. At least at our track there is a substantial gain with using new tires (as opposed to one season old).
I understand that the experience is different at other tracks, which may be less abrasive.

Nonetheless, we do get through 30 race heat cycles on one set of tires.

JS

[Speed Sport Engineering]

Michael, I'm curious as to what you consider to be the hidden costs?

Matt - I've already identified 6 areas of development if we had to switch to Falkens. Everything from aero to exhaust work. Never underestimate what happens when rule changes occur in ultra competitive environments.

[Speed Sport Engineering]

Honestly, I would venture to say that running the radial does even out the playing field. Where the advantage goes to the driver not the equipment. At the same time when you have cars running closer together, especially FV's the draft is going to play a bigger role. I know people are going to say that the bigger tire is going to punch a bigger hole in the air. But truthfully when you don't have a tire advantage, which EVERYONE has agreed can be had with slicks, chances are drivers with similar skill sets are going to run closer together, the packs are going to get larger, the win is going to be on the final corners of the last lap, and not a 40 second gap.

It is not uncommon to see the top 5 cars cross the finish line less than 2secs apart.

But is that not racing?

That's restrictor plate racing, not road racing.

[Mason66]

I have been using the Falkens for 6 seasons now, it was introduced with WCMA 7 seasons ago.
I have never raced with anything else on a FV (I did race with slicks in gokarts though).

I am globally in favor of a cheaper tire option and I am fine with the Falken. Though I had wished we had gone with a 15" instead of the 14". There is limited choice in this niche size of tire, and we are always at the mercy of tire manufacturers, who could discontinue the Falken in this size (we switched to the Falken when Toyo or Yokohama discontinued the tire we had been using).

There's only one thing that bothers me with the pro-Falken people here - please do not see this as being antagonist. I keep reading that the tire will last years. It would better and more accurate I think to talk about cycles.
With WCMA we typically race 5 week-ends per season. That is 6 races, 2 practices and 1 qualifying per week-end. Tires wear quick at this pace (typically just over 1/32 of tread tire per week-end) and most if not all the competitors get brand new tires at the beginning of the season. I have tested back to back brand new and one season old tires. At least at our track there is a substantial gain with using new tires (as opposed to one season old).
I understand that the experience is different at other tracks, which may be less abrasive.

Nonetheless, we do get through 30 race heat cycles on one set of tires.

JS

That's great detailed info. Thank you for sharing. That's the info needed to establish a sound argument for a Radial spec tire like the Falken to be considered by the SCCA as the spec tire of choice throughout the entire country.

$400 a season beats $750 every weekend or two.

[problemchild]

We have lost three years and cost ourselves thousands of dollars because we have not developed a more cost effective slick that the community wanted. Let's get one and develop a plan for transitioning to it during the 2016 season.

Craig

Actually ..... you have cost yourself that money. A bunch of people have found a solution and are having a blast without that cost. Come to NJ and give them a try. Will you do that? I will find some additional sponsorship for you. Same for Michael or Brian.

You are correct. Hand-picked letters and 3+year old survey results are nothing to base a decision on. Find how far the overwhelming Falken enthusiasm on Apexspeed will go at the race track. In the meantime, writing a letter in favor of approving the Falken as an alternate tire, works for you as it will let others try them without forcing them on you, at the same time improving your car counts. If you are so confident that most want slicks, then it is absolutely not any threat to your interests. Will you do that?

[Dean Curtis]

Dean / All,

I think the other possibility that needs to be mentioned here is slicks are much more difficult to drive on the edge then a street radial. Slip angles and grip levels make street radials much more forgiving. I would look at this and say it's entirely possible you simply drove better on the slicks then the others. (And I really don't mean any disprespect to anyone here, but a 4 sec difference is not tires.)

I would argue that the Falkens take away some driver skill from the equation...exactly the opposite of what every is claiming of the goal.

Just an observation and hopes of adding some grounding to the cheerleading. It's not as simple as some are saying it is. The hidden costs are huge here...people are just not thinking about them yet.

No matter what tire is run driver skill is the most important part. Racing on the radials it is just as easy to go slow. A tire being forgiving has its price. There is a learning curve and we are just at the start. as far as hidden costs they have stayed that way so far. I know we can get more out of these tires and as we do. I'm sure tire life will suffer. The Challenge cup has given drivers a shot at getting their car back on the track to enjoy racing again. We would love to see more cars come out and join us. But by no means do we have any intension of dictating what SCCA will do for the FV class. We have created a venue for affordable racing that is all. Get in cars and come racing. I hope to see some new faces at NJ

[Steve Bamford]

Actually ..... you have cost yourself that money. A bunch of people have found a solution and are having a blast without that cost. Come to NJ and give them a try. Will you do that? I will find some additional sponsorship for you. Same for Michael or Brian.

You are correct. Hand-picked letters and 3+year old survey results are nothing to base a decision on. Find how far the overwhelming Falken enthusiasm on Apexspeed will go at the race track. In the meantime, writing a letter in favor of approving the Falken as an alternate tire, works for you as it will let others try them without forcing them on you, at the same time improving your car counts. If you are so confident that most want slicks, then it is absolutely not any threat to your interests. Will you do that?

Careful Greg,

Challenge Cup guys won't be too happy if Mike V takes you up on your offer as I am sure he would still spank everyone on the track. This is not a shot at anyone in anyway at all, he is simply that good.

[problemchild]

Careful Greg,

Challenge Cup guys won't be too happy if Mike V takes you up on your offer as I am sure he would still spank everyone on the track. This is not a shot at anyone in anyway at all, he is simply that good.

He will never show. Tiago nailed it.

[problemchild]

He will never show. Tiago nailed it.

But ..... it would be so cool if we could get an elite FV driver, besides Dean of course, to come to NJ and run the Falken tire package.

So ..... here's my FV National Champion enticement offer.
I don't have any caviar but I will offer up a surplus bottle of Steve's champagne.
I will loan them a very good legal intake manifold.
I will provide them with a hotel room for Friday and Saturday night.
I will pay for the tire rental.
I will pay for their first $100 of race fuel

I believe that Saturday's dinner is provided. If they get there and pay the entry fee, they should have no real costs during the event. If there is something else we need to offer, let me know, and I'll try and put it together.

I will just need a pic of their smiling face on Sunday afternoon!

[derminator]

You are aware that Ed Womer is going to be running at NJ.

[Steve Bamford]

You are aware that Ed Womer is going to be running at NJ.

Yep but Mike is the best of the best as the record book shows, IMO. No shot against Ed, Brian or anyone.

[Hardingfv32]

Is there anyone out there that has tried the Falken package that is not in favor of it? It seems to me that the naysayers are those who have not given it a try.

Absolutely some out there that have down back to back tests and they do not like them but I can not speak for them.

Those of us who have not tried them base our choice and the fact that there has never been a DOT radial (205 X Rxx) that has performed remotely close to the a slick. Knowing that we want the performance of a slick.... what would be the point?

You are simply stating pointless rhetoric.

Brian

[Dennis McCarthy]

Get Roger......

[problemchild]

You are aware that Ed Womer is going to be running at NJ.

I think there are already some very good drivers running, but they don't seem to be impressing the critics. I figured that a former National FV Champion would do the trick.

[problemchild]

Get Roger......

Roger, Brad, Steve, Steven, George, Jon, Rick, ..... all works for me. Everyone can get some autographs and have a fun time!

[problemchild]

Absolutely some out there that have down back to back tests and they do not like them but I can not speak for them.

Those of us who have not tried them base our choice and the fact that there has never been a DOT radial (205 X Rxx) that has performed remotely close to the a slick. Knowing that we want the performance of a slick.... what would be the point?

You are simply stating pointless rhetoric.

Brian

Brian, what changed since your enthusiastic endorsement on July 29th. Your comments then were very compelling.

[maloneyjack]

Absolutely some out there that have down back to back tests and they do not like them but I can not speak for them.



Those of us who have not tried them base our choice and the fact that there has never been a DOT radial (205 X Rxx) that has performed remotely close to the a slick. Knowing that we want the performance of a slick.... what would be the point?



You are simply stating pointless rhetoric.



Brian

Brian,
You keep stating "we" yet you are not a driver. I value driver input with regard to what tire "we" should run. Test days are different than race days and until you run a race with a specific tire, I don't see how you can be opposed to it. I know a DOT tire will not have the same performance as a slick but that is not the debate here. A harder compound slick will not have the same performance as a softer compound slick.
Thanks,
Jack Maloney
Driver
FV59

[Dennis McCarthy]

I'd pay money to see Roger on the Falkens racing Brian on his choice of any slick made....

[Hardingfv32]

Isn't the added aero drag from wider wheels the same for all cars switching to these wider wheels?

The wheels (slicks) account for about 65% of the FV's aero drag. This is drag not frontal area. The rears are counted because the flow closes in behind the front tires and has to punch through by the rears again. You can expect the radial to up that number to about 75%.

I know for a fact that is is very easy for a Canadian FVs to be able to catch and hold onto the draft.... but not be able to pull out of the pack and move forward. This leads to some frustrating pack racing. Does anyone from Canada have any accident stories to tell about some of the 'Big Ones'?

So while everyone is in the same boat with the drag caused by the bigger wheels... something has also change about how the car interact on the track.

Brian

[Steve Bamford]

The wheels (slicks) account for about 65% of the FV's aero drag. This is drag not frontal area. The rears are counted because the flow closes in behind the front tires and has to punch through by the rears again. You can expect the radial to up that number to about 75%.

I know for a fact that is is very easy for a Canadian FVs to be able to catch and hold onto the draft.... but not be able to pull out of the pack and move forward. This leads to some frustrating pack racing. Does anyone from Canada have any accident stories to tell about some of the 'Big Ones'?

So while everyone is in the same boat with the drag caused by the bigger wheels... something has also change about how the car interact on the track.

Brian

I guess that's what going in F1600 pro racing now with the 10 car trains running on slicks huh Brian? Your argument doesn't hold water based on this.

[Tiago Santos]

Matt - I've already identified 6 areas of development if we had to switch to Falkens. Everything from aero to exhaust work. Never underestimate what happens when rule changes occur in ultra competitive environments.

Interesting - are you trying to say those are NEW costs that don't happen now? Or only that you and a select group of people have already done the work for our current tires and it would kinda suck to do it again? I can understand that. Then again, if you want to be on the bleeding edge of ultra competitive sports, that's kinda the price to pay, isn't it? At least we're not scraping the entire car and telling folks to start from scratch - cause you know, that's racing too.

This once again tells me that competitively, not much would change at the pointy end. Folks like you will put in the time, money and effort to stay there - I think that is impressive and admirable. It would still save everyone else a bunch of money. Call me a lazy self entitled bum, but I think it's worth catering to the majority vs the exceptions.

[problemchild]

The wheels (slicks) account for about 65% of the FV's aero drag. This is drag not frontal area. The rears are counted because the flow closes in behind the front tires and has to punch through by the rears again. You can expect the radial to up that number to about 75%.

I know for a fact that is is very easy for a Canadian FVs to be able to catch and hold onto the draft.... but not be able to pull out of the pack and move forward. This leads to some frustrating pack racing. Does anyone from Canada have any accident stories to tell about some of the 'Big Ones'?

So while everyone is in the same boat with the drag caused by the bigger wheels... something has also change about how the car interact on the track.

Brian

So now you want anecdotes and rhetoric? I thought you want facts.

I have seen some big wrecks on radials just as I have seen big wrecks on slicks. Are you now making the argument that there would be too many cars racing too close together? I will agree that fewer cars spread further apart is safer ..... unless of course you don't have your own race group and are racing with other class cars.

What about the "no-brainer" facts in your July 29th endorsement of the Falken tire package?

[Hardingfv32]

I think there are already some very good drivers running, but they don't seem to be impressing the critics.

But do you have very good cars? Just as a rough yard stick... how many Vortechs are running with you?

It would be a BIG in feather your cap to get Rick or Roger to race with you. They are in your area... I shouldn't be very hard to secure their support. there is plenty of time. Keep us posted.

Brian

[Hardingfv32]

[QUOTE=Steve Bamford;481272 Your argument doesn't hold water based on this.[/QUOTE]

My argument is based on facts. Please verify with the Canadians.

When was the last time there was a big pack drafting accident in FV?

These Canadian accidents are said to be epic... just a little rhetoric!

Brian

[problemchild]

My argument is based on facts. Please verify with the Canadians.

Brian

Steve is Canadian. He ran 3 seasons of F1200 on Falkens and won about a dozen races.

[Rolling Stone]

The wheels (slicks) account for about 65% of the FV's aero drag. This is drag not frontal area. The rears are counted because the flow closes in behind the front tires and has to punch through by the rears again. You can expect the radial to up that number to about 75%.

I know for a fact that is is very easy for a Canadian FVs to be able to catch and hold onto the draft.... but not be able to pull out of the pack and move forward. This leads to some frustrating pack racing. Does anyone from Canada have any accident stories to tell about some of the 'Big Ones'?

So while everyone is in the same boat with the drag caused by the bigger wheels... something has also change about how the car interact on the track.

Brian

Frustrating pack racing?I watched Iamundi,Wang,Kapelke,Taylor from corner 9@ Mosport do a lot of close pack racing it was great to see,F1200 is a very popular class with spectators /Marshalls etc because of that very thing.Im beginning to find some of your comments as welcome as a "Fart in a Spacesuit".

[problemchild]

My argument is based on facts. Please verify with the Canadians.

When was the last time there was a big pack drafting accident in FV?

These Canadian accidents are said to be expect... just a little rhetoric!

Brian

Steve also races with Pro F1600 on your Hoosier spec tires and has pack racing concerns at some tracks on some days.

You are dismissing comments from perhaps the most qualified driver to offer his opinion. Steve has raced on Goodyear, Hoosier (radials, bias, spec, open, miniature rear), AR, Dunlop racing tires and Toyo and Falken street radial tires.

[nbrigido]

Noel - I think we agree we need a lower cost solution to the "spec" slick we currently have.

Where we (and many others in the thread) disagree is whether a DOT tire should be the spec tire. Even if the backing of the DOT spec tire quadrupled, support for it would still be half of what it is for a spec slick based on the survey data.

We can take more surveys, we can write more letters, but at this point I think FV has to act on their own and provide a solution that the majority supports. As many people have said here the forums do not represent the masses and hand picked letters do not either. The closest data we have that represents the community is the survey. Not too far of a leap to say that they survey respondents overall support a spec slick that provides more value than the current "spec" 55B.

We have lost three years and cost ourselves thousands of dollars because we have not developed a more cost effective slick that the community wanted. Let's get one and develop a plan for transitioning to it during the 2016 season.

Craig

I think we agree the a lower cost solution needs to be found.

As Greg has mentioned that having the Radial and an alternative Legal option may be the best way to go. This way everyone SHOULD be happy.

We have addressed the performance and the Cost at the same time.

The loss of time = loss of drivers.

[Daryl DeArman]

And I really don't mean any disprespect to anyone here, but a 4 sec difference is not tires.)

Sounds to me like you've never had the privilege of driving on junk slicks. I think the other fallacy in the logic is assuming that all drivers in the slick race were on the same compound and relative age of the tire.

The hidden costs are huge here...people are just not thinking about them yet.

Huge is relative. I'm willing to bet that most people will not spend anywhere near the amount on development of the new wheel/tire package as they are accustomed to spending on tires. I would also argue that many will utilize the savings they would enjoy from tires on additional seat time. Seat time that will give them more enjoyment of the sport and reduce their lap times/improve their race craft more than spending lots of money trying to find the next tenth.

[nbrigido]

So now you want anecdotes and rhetoric? I thought you want facts.

I have seen some big wrecks on radials just as I have seen big wrecks on slicks. Are you now making the argument that there would be too many cars racing too close together? I will agree that fewer cars spread further apart is safer ..... unless of course you don't have your own race group and are racing with other class cars.

What about the "no-brainer" facts in your July 29th endorsement of the Falken tire package?

The question will not be answered Greg...

[nbrigido]

But do you have very good cars? Just as a rough yard stick... how many Vortechs are running with you?

It would be a BIG in feather your cap to get Rick or Roger to race with you. They are in your area... I shouldn't be very hard to secure their support. there is plenty of time. Keep us posted.

Brian

Again with the Cars...Really this is where it is going...Who cares how many vortechs are running..Who is driving the vortech might be a more valid question..Even then, becasue you own a vortech does not mean you can with a race.

I go back to my post a while back from the 2014 Runoff's...Where is the Vortech there?

BTW, nothing against any driver in a vortech or any other car. as any car can be made a winner if the driver has it in him/her to do so.

[fvhopeful]

Brian
Steve is Canadian , has more experience
running in highly competitive races with large feilds
Then I believe you run in ,
I appriecated you are not willing to make any changes .and you
Would be happy running around the track by yourself. I just don't
consider that much fun.
This thread has brought formula Vee concerns to the forefront and I must
Thank you for that!!
Maybe in the future you can try a race
on radials and maybe venture to the Darkside
Thank you once again

Cheers
Desmomd
Hitch Guide

[problemchild]

But do you have very good cars? Just as a rough yard stick... how many Vortechs are running with you?

It would be a BIG in feather your cap to get Rick or Roger to race with you. They are in your area... I shouldn't be very hard to secure their support. there is plenty of time. Keep us posted.

Brian

Do you read other people's replies to you.
Yesterday, people presented documentation to answer your Vortech comments. This was documentation ..... like official documents ..... as fact-like as possible.

Still waiting for your explanation for the Falken tire endorsement you gave on July 29th.
You said going with the Falken tires was a no-brainer.

[Steve Bamford]

But do you have very good cars? Just as a rough yard stick... how many Vortechs are running with you?

It would be a BIG in feather your cap to get Rick or Roger to race with you. They are in your area... I shouldn't be very hard to secure their support. there is plenty of time. Keep us posted.

Brian

Did a Vortech win the runoffs last year? Michael has how many track records and National Championships in his non Vortech?

By the way my first SCCA event I beat Charles Hearn in his Vortech, I believe he finished 2nd in the runoffs the previous year and I was a mid pack racer at the time in F1200. Any other BS you carry use that I can denounce for you?

I am not arguing about tires in my posts I am simply correcting your blantently incorrect BS you are coming up with.

[nbrigido]

My argument is based on facts. Please verify with the Canadians.

When was the last time there was a big pack drafting accident in FV?

These Canadian accidents are said to be epic... just a little rhetoric!

Brian

Brain, Steve is Canadian, He has raced is almost every major event in FV, F1600, F2000 and a probably a couple of other thing we don't know. He has run the front of the Pack, and won races in everyone of those series. So if there is someone's opinion i put value behind it is his. And to even consider saying that the drivers are not competitive or a different level of competitive is a joke on itself

[nbrigido]

Did a Vortech win the runoffs last year? Michael has how many track records and National Championships in his non Vortech?

By the way my first SCCA event I beat Charles Hearn in his Vortech, I believe he finished 2nd in the runoffs the previous year and I was a mid pack racer at the time in F1200. Any other BS you carry use that I can denounce for you?

I am not arguing about tires in my posts I am simply correcting your blantently incorrect BS you are coming up with.

In case it was missed...


I see 4 Vortechs below? 6 Protoforms 5 of which are a head of the first Vortech. but they are not competitive.

BTW 2104 Runoffs.

1, (6), Rick Shields, Bridgeville, PA, VDF-2 Vee, 20.
2, (10), Quinn Posner, Camas, WA, Protoform P3, 20.
3, (18), Gavin Sweeney, New York, NY, Crusader FV, 20.
4, (4), Jonathan Weisheit, Baltimore, MD, J.K Technologies LLC XP1, 20.
5, (20), Marjorie Lundberg, Glendale, CA, Caracal C, 20.
6, (13), Blake Tatum, Stockton, CA, Crusader FV, 20.
7, (19), Aaron Meyer, Rocklin, CA, Protoform P3, 20.
8, (25), Larry McKenzie, San Leandro, CA, Mysterian M3, 20.
9, (26), Russell Fredericks, Northport, NY, Caracal D, 20.
10, (15), Skip Streets, San Clemente, CA, Mysterian M3, 20.
11, (22), Paul Higgins, Abbotsford, BC, Protoform FV-P2, 20.
12, (30), Ron Whitston, Neenah, WI, Protoform P2, 20.
13, (31), Ron Bonham, Halsey, OR, Protoform P2, 20.
14, (29), Charlie Turner, Mission Viejo, CA, Vortech FV, 20.
15, (21), Kim Madrid, Rancho Cucamonga, CA, Lazer MK 2.5, 20.
16, (27), Don Manthe, Santa Rosa, CA, Volkswagen FV, 20.
17, (32), Harry Schneider, Cape Coral, FL, Adams Aero, 19.
18, (23), Lisa Noble, Manhattan, KS, Vortech FV, 18.
19, (9), Don Pepperdene, Monterey, CA, Slick Mk1, 14.
20, (17), Robert Neumeister, Pueblo, CO, Vortech FV, 14.
21, (11), Brian McCarthy, Sacramento, CA, Anduril FV, 11.
22, (12), Ron Wake, Lafayette, CA, Mysterian M4, 6.
23, (8), Jake Pipal, Oakdale, CA, Caracal C, 5.
24, (24), Kevin Gordon, Santa Clarita, CA, Crusader FV, 3.
25, (2), Dennis Andrade, Brush Prairie, WA, Vortech 5, 0.
26, (1), Michael Varacins, Burlington, WI, Speed Sport AM-5, 0.
27, (14), Brian Swanson, Petaluma, CA, Mysterian M3, 0.
28, (16), Gary Kittell, Tully, NY, Caracal D/SB, 0.
29, (28), Richard Gordon, Walnut Grove, CA, Crusader FV, 0.
DQ, (5), Terran Swanson, Petaluma, CA, Mysterian M4, 20.
DQ, (7), Roger Siebenaler, North Hero, VT, Mysterian M2, 20.
DQ, (3), Andrew Whitston, Neenah, WI, Protoform P2, 20.