Hoosier Spec Tire for FV

[nbrigido]

It has been stated to me that it was 75% wanted to retain slicks. I do not have access to the poll to verify.

McCarthy stated that AR was not showing any interest a FV Spec tire. That said they are not going complete with Hoosier on performance or durability in a track test. Did AR have anything to offer the FF selection process.... no.

'...give the radial street tire option a fair opportunity...'

What in the world is a fair opportunity?? These are the simple facts:

Falkens are a low performance low cost of operation tire.
Hoosiers are a high performance high cost operation tire.

There are no other practical choices. A high performance DOT street radial is going to cost as much as a Hoosier slick and you are still straddled with wheel purchases and increased aero drag etc.

Now the FV Committee or CRB might want to test each tire to go through the motions politically and/or to validate their importance. Is this the fair opportunity you want?? It proves nothing that we do not already know... the Hoosiers are fast and Falkens very economical. Does this really have to be demonstrated?

What needs to be known by the decision makers is where along gradient of performance to low cost does each FV competitor stand. That simply is not possible without each competitor living with the two tire choices for a while. So really the decision maker is restricted to an unmeasured criteria: performance verses cost in the case of a FV Spec tire. The different committees will go through the motions but the decision is really very simple. Does anyone view this any differently?

If the majority see performance as the most important factor then what choice does the CRB have?

Brian

Brian you make some valid points, so let's put this out there. Hey maybe it is reaching too far for the powers to be?

If the drivers are the decision makers, and we use these forum as a small indication of what "some" drivers want or don't want, them lets ask for a high performance AND a low cost option. ( I am not endorsing the Hoosier or the Falken)

So if a driver has or would like to spend the extra $ on the higher performance options, they will re racing with others that think the same way. If there is a lower cost option you with get the drivers that go racing with other drivers who think the same way. The magic is all drivers have a home.

If I had to spend extra $ on tires (that maybe I don't have), to be competitive, I would probably re-think which events if any I attend, for financial reasons. At the same time not to take away fro those who have no issues spending the extra. But they would each be racing with drivers thinking the same way. This will also allow drivers to travel from region to region without issues.

What ever we do need to be the best for the Class, not just a group of drivers. As I said before, if we can get more drivers out there (and no the spec tires will not be the only factor, but will be a big one), and we can get more single class grids, that in itself will bring even more drivers back.

Racing in not a Inexpensive Sport, and not for everyone, but we need to start thinking how to we make it better for those who want to race and can race.

[problemchild]

Interesting. Brian thinks that a tire package, developed by racers, used by several hundred racers over a 35 year period is an unknown, but having engineers from Hoosier tell SCCA what tire they will provide as a spec tire, is a logical choice based on simple fact. Hmmm......

If Brian is so sure that a clear majority do not want cost to be the deciding factor, why is he fighting so hard to get Hoosier to be awarded the spec tire contract? The elitists are terrified right now that the playing field may become level! Regular folk might be able to race FV competitively AGAIN.

[craigs]

Agree - all that separated me from Roger, Rick, and Gary at the WGI majors race was my tires!!!!

[Steve Bamford]

Brian is not providing any real data for his 75%. If I had a list of 10 FV racers & knew or believed at least 4 of them wanted a slick & called only those 4 then I would likely end up with 75 - 100% saying they wanted a slick.

As for the current F1600 tire raced in the Pro Series which is a possible Spec FF tire next year I wouldn't be too excited about. It is better then the previous tire for durability however not by very much. 3-4 heat cycles and we have drop off. There is a reason we still use 6 tires in 4 sessions & would use 8 if we were allowed.

Brian, you spew a lot of information however much of it is incorrect & you have ZERO experience with most of you are talking about. I have raced all tires you have mentioned have you?

You obviously have a clear cut agenda.

[Hardingfv32]

Brian, you spew a lot of information however much of it is incorrect...

Please specify the incorrect information.

I believe I am stating very simple facts that do not require track test comparisons. I have heard from a number of drivers that have either used the Falkens on have experience comparing DOT radials to racing slicks. I personal only require addition durability from the current slick. That happens to be what the people I have spoken to desire. Most of these competitors run the Major events.

Falkens low performance low operating cost
Hoosier high performance high operating cost

Any issue in calling those the facts?

75% wanting to stay on slicks is from a FV Committee survey done a couple of years ago. They will have to validate that number. I do not have the survey.

You guys are now promoting the Falken package as something 'good for the class'. No one knows what is good for the class... that is and will remain an unknown. It would be my opinion that it is wiser to keep the majority of the current competitor happy as apposed to guessing what might satisfy those who have stopped racing.

Brian

[Steve Bamford]

Please specify the incorrect information.

I believe I am stating very simple facts that do not require track test comparisons. I have heard from a number of drivers that have either used the Falkens on have experience comparing DOT radials to racing slicks. I personal only require addition durability from the current slick. That happens to be what the people I have spoken to desire. Most of these competitors run the Major events.

Falkens low performance low operating cost
Hoosier high performance high operating cost

Any issue in calling those the facts?

75% wanting to stay on slicks is from a FV Committee survey done a couple of years ago. They will have to validate that number. I do not have the survey.

You guys are now promoting the Falken package as something 'good for the class'. No one knows what is good for the class... that is and will remain an unknown. It would be my opinion that it is wiser to keep the majority of the current competitor happy as apposed to guessing what might satisfy those who have stopped racing.

Brian

Answer this then...

The Challenge Cup Series has an average car count of 14 or 15 cars. What does the SCCA have an average FV car count of? Pick any division you want.

The reason I ask that is I believe since the car counts are higher, this would be the majority that you should be listening to. Your words, not mine "It would be my opinion that it is wiser to keep the majority of the current competitor happy as apposed to guessing what might satisfy those who have stopped racing."

Also as for competitors who get free tires from Hoosier currently, do you think their vote should hold the same weight as the others who have to pay for them?

[problemchild]

I just read a FB post where someone said we need a "seamless" transition.

Seamless? The FV community has spent several million dollars buying FV tires for 40 years when the could have spent several hundred thousand dollars. Where would the class be now had that course been chosen. The very last thing that is needed is a "seamless transition" from a totally broken situation. Hoosier is in the business of selling tires, not in the business of saving FV racers money. I am a huge fan of Hoosier, but they need to decide if they want to build tires to parameters acceptable to the FV community. For SCCA to rubber-stamp whatever Hoosier selects to ensure a seamless transition is just a step sideways and not a step forward.

If Hoosier wants to supply a tire that will have significantly less degradation over a longer period of time, then we need to atleast make they make the rears, if not all 4, much taller, as the traditional FV slicks were. It just makes so much sense from an engine rpm perspective.

[Hardingfv32]

Answer this then...

Before changing the subject.... please specify the incorrect information I stated. You made a claim now support it!

Brian

[Steve Bamford]

Before changing the subject.... please specify the incorrect information I stated. You made a claim now support it!

Brian

That 75% of the current drivers want slicks.

Your turn, or I guess you simply can't disagree with what I wrote.

[Steve Bamford]

Before changing the subject.... please specify the incorrect information I stated. You made a claim now support it!

Brian

Another quote by you "95% of my recent contacts indicate a desire to stay with slicks."

Are you ignoring every post that is written on here? These would be people you are in contact with as they are replying to threads you have written in/and or started.

[Steve Bamford]

Another incorrect statement from you.

You are living a dream... the radial package is unknown outside the NE.

The success of the FF Spec tire effort and tearable wear with the Hoosiers in warm weather is what is motivating me. Called Hoosier... they told me what was possible and what needed done based on their FF experience.

To repeat: The SFRegion used ARs for a decade and now Regional FV is dead/gone. How can you then say this is about bring people back. You are not presenting a logical argument.

Brian

What success of what FF Spec tire? There is no spec tire yet announced for FF.

Have you run on the Pro Series tire this year? I have & would say that winning in the series & getting pole in qualifying gives me some experience to speak to the performance of the tire. It lasts 3-4 heat cycles before your times drop off. End of story. They are better then the previous tire as they don't completely fall off a cliff but if you want to run at the front you are still spending near the same money.

I have run on Toyo's as well & get 4-5 race weekends if I don't count test days.

All your info is based on an agenda you have. I am only giving you facts supported by experience.

[Hardingfv32]

Where would the class be now had that course been chosen....make the rears, if not all 4, much taller, as the traditional FV slicks were. It just makes so much sense from an engine rpm perspective.

You are simply not dealing with reality.

Hoosier Goodyear SCCA did not get us to where we are as a class today. FV competitors have had controlled of every step. They supported their decisions with their money. The class has to work with what the rule set that we have at this point. That means that the majority want to stay on the slicks that they have had for decades. That is the performance and cost they have become accustom to.

Lowering RPMs would improve engine life but can you quantify that savings? Is that savings going provide a net benefit for those who would feel it necessary to modify their engines and exhaust systems. The Regional competitor might not bother but the Majors competitor will.

Since the Major competitors are the biggest and most active FV population... the rule set is going favor them.

Brian

[problemchild]

The poll was many moons ago. Perhaps if you added up all the options, you could extrapolate a conclusion that a majority wanted slicks. Using the same technique, you could extrapolate a conclusion that a majority wanted spec tires. No where does the poll allow extrapolation to conclude what people's 2nd choice or absolutely No choice would be. Neither does the poll allow extrapolation to conclude what people's current choice would be.

Of course, we can never believe what we read on the internet, but the overwhelming support for cheap street radial tires here, and the momentous growth of Falken-shod FV racers would suggest that many more than a small minority are in favor of such a change.

I expect that either side could win, after a messy bout of ETPF lasting many years.

The best solution would be for Hoosier to develop a "once a year" tire that had parameters like:

- zero performance fall-off for 10 cycles
- less than .05% performance fall-off after 40 cycles
- wear more than 50 cycles
- grooves so that it could be used in the rain
- target price $150 each
- build from 23.0 or 22.5 molds
- same size all 4 corners

Then we allow the Falken package as an alternate tire and ban all tire sponsorships and contingencies (which will make the $150 tire doable).

There that was so simple. Ship it. Done!

If we convince Hoosier to only produce and sell this tire, then we don't need SCCA or ETPF. All we need is to allow the Falken as an alternate tire. That would be so simple. Win-Win. Anyone who could not accept this plan could truly call themselves elitist.

[Hardingfv32]

[QUOTE=Steve Bamford;481052[/QUOTE]

Clarify.... I should have stated the success of the FF Spec tire 'process'. In the past it has been difficult to get a Spec tire approved by SCCA.

Clearly you are unhappy with what the FF tea leaves are indicating.

Brian

[Steve Bamford]

Clarify.... I should have stated the success of the FF Spec tire 'process'. In the past it has been difficult to get a Spec tire approved by SCCA.

Clearly you are unhappy with what the FF tea leaves are indicating.

Brian

Well you didn't state it that way.

Now will you answer my questions since I answered yours?

Here are the questions once again:

Answer this then...

The Challenge Cup Series has an average car count of 14 or 15 cars. What does the SCCA have an average FV car count of? Pick any division you want.

The reason I ask that is I believe since the car counts are higher, this would be the majority that you should be listening to. Your words, not mine "It would be my opinion that it is wiser to keep the majority of the current competitor happy as apposed to guessing what might satisfy those who have stopped racing."

Also as for competitors who get free tires from Hoosier currently, do you think their vote should hold the same weight as the others who have to pay for them?

[nbrigido]

You are simply not dealing with reality.

Hoosier Goodyear SCCA did not get us to where we are as a class today. FV competitors have had controlled of every step. They supported their decisions with their money. The class has to work with what the rule set that we have at this point. That means that the majority want to stay on the slicks that they have had for decades. That is the performance and cost they have become accustom to.

Brian

and FV is going to survive, everyone will accept Status Quo. You seem to be trying to justify the Majority.

[problemchild]

You are simply not dealing with reality.

Hoosier Goodyear SCCA did not get us to where we are as a class today. FV competitors have had controlled of every step. They supported their decisions with their money. The class has to work with what the rule set that we have at this point. That means that the majority want to stay on the slicks that they have had for decades. That is the performance and cost they have become accustom to.

Lowering RPMs would improve engine life but can you quantify that savings? Is that savings going provide a net benefit for those who would feel it necessary to modify their engines and exhaust systems. The Regional competitor might not bother but the Majors competitor will.

Since the Major competitors are the biggest and most active FV population... the rule set is going favor them.

Brian

Virtually every person in the leadership role for the FV community was a tire dealer or receiving tire sponsorship. I was part of that group. That is the reality. That does not mean we were dishonest or immoral. Our massive conflicts of interest prevented us from understanding the problem. That is history but we can learn from that now, educate, compromise, and make a tire that serves both the Majors racers and regular FV racers.

I suppose you won't want to consider where FV would be without your reinterpretation of intake manifold rules and the subsequent darkest period of FV racing that followed.

[Tiago Santos]

Agree - all that separated me from Roger, Rick, and Gary at the WGI majors race was my tires!!!!

No, it probably wasn't. So what's the big deal?

You mentioned earlier you didn't want the Falkens cause you'd have to buy 3 sets of wheels. Disregarding the fact that no one racing on Falkens is doing that (it's all the gentleman drivers in Canada, who aren't really "racers", unlike the special racers in the states), you do realize that 3 sets of Falkens and 3 sets of wheels are still cheaper than 3 sets of Hoosiers, right? And that after that, you'd still be buying tires at half the current cost?

[Tiago Santos]

Another quote by you "95% of my recent contacts indicate a desire to stay with slicks."

Chances that Brian actually contacted at least 20 people and 19 of them wanted slicks = 0.47%

[craigs]

No, it probably wasn't. So what's the big deal?

You mentioned earlier you didn't want the Falkens cause you'd have to buy 3 sets of wheels. Disregarding the fact that no one racing on Falkens is doing that (it's all the gentleman drivers in Canada, who aren't really "racers", unlike the special racers in the states), you do realize that 3 sets of Falkens and 3 sets of wheels are still cheaper than 3 sets of Hoosiers, right? And that after that, you'd still be buying tires at half the current cost?

Thanks for the math lesson. I appreciate it.

Also, I made no comment on the drivers or racers in Canada, especially compared to US FV drivers. I actually think its cool what the 1200 guys are doing and was even thinking of running some events next year if they were in New England. Sent one of the guys an email to that effect a few days ago. I look forward to meeting and hanging out with some of the group. Maybe split a few Molsons while you guys apologize for beating me.

What frustrates me about the Falken push is that:
1. Tires that fit our current wheels are being discounted - what about the Federal, Nankang, Toyo 888s, ARs, or harder Hoosiers on our current wheels? How does switching wheels get more cars to come out to race? New wheels goes totally against getting the parked cars back on track. It just doesn't make sense to me.
2. The implication that if we went to a treaded radial (Falken, 888, whatever) that it would allow for regular folk to be competitive again. Speaking only for regional events I have been involved in in the northeast, they are won by guys that buy one set of tires per year - except for my few and far between wins (I get two sets per year). The fast guys will still be out of touch of the midpack guys who will still be out of touch of the slow guys no matter what the tire. It is dishonest to promise competitiveness (I mean competing for wins not competing for 11th and 12th) even at the regional level. Never mind at the majors level. It ain't the tires fault that I'm midpack - anyone who thinks other wise is kidding them selves. Its talent, seat time, and prep first and foremost and then maybe power and then tires? Switching to Falkens aint gonna flip the grid on its head.

The push should be what's best for cost containment and gets the barn cars back on track while attracting new blood. We (as in SCCA) need to provide more value to our current and potential "customers".

The cheapest FV option would be a tire that fits our current wheel and lasts a long time. Obviously, having the same wheel allows for the barn cars to come back with only having to purchase new rubber. If we switch to Falkens it will be a wheel AND tire purchase. Keep the narrow wheels and find a long lasting solution that works on them, sell the idea without the competitiveness bait and switch, and I am in.

Craig

[Matt King]

FV competitors have had controlled of every step. They supported their decisions with their money.

If you compare the participation numbers today to where they were 10 or 20 years ago, it's pretty clear that most FV competitors have spoken with their money by keeping it in their pocket or spending it on other things and parking their cars in the garage.

[craigs]

If you compare the participation numbers today to where they were 10 or 20 years ago, it's pretty clear that most FV competitors have spoken with their money by keeping it in their pocket or spending it on other things and parking their cars in the garage.

Or converted their FVs to that hot new class that was gonna take the racing world by storm.

One thing I'll give the 1200 guys credit for is for, so far, crushing the annual FST chatter.

[Hardingfv32]

....The Challenge Cup Series has an average car count of 14 or 15 cars.....

Also as for competitors who get free tires from Hoosier currently

I fulling agree that the Challenge Cup supports your 'theory' of the benefit of a spec tire. But would you agree that my example of the dead SFR Regonal FV program does not support it? ....Something tells me not.

While it might be hard to accept there are a lot of things that go into making a successful race series. Your theory is too weak to hold sway with the majority of FV competitors.

I think you are going to find that as part of a cost containment effort with the FF spec tire choice... SCCA is not charging a spec tire fee and that there will be no tire contingencies. We should be able to expect the same for FV. If so can those that received free tires in the past vote?

Brian

[Steve Bamford]

I fulling agree that the Challenge Cup supports your 'theory' of the benefit of a spec tire. But would you agree that my example of the dead SFR Regonal FV program does not support it? ....Something tells me not.

While it might be hard to accept there are a lot of things that go into making a successful race series. Your theory is too weak to hold sway with the majority of FV competitors.

I think you are going to find that as part of a cost containment effort with the FF spec tire choice... SCCA is not charging a spec tire fee and that there will be no tire contingencies. We should be able to expect the same for FV. If so can those that received free tires in the past vote?

Brian

You're correct that a lot of things go into making a successful race series and the Challenge Cup tries to control costs such as spec manifolds as well, maybe that is a reason SFR Regional FV is dead.

I never said that a spec tire was the total solution however I am pointing out that running these DOT tires that you say 95% of the people you talk do not want seem to be enjoyed by many.

I am simply stating the correct facts and even though it may seem like I am pushing for this tire I am just correcting what I believe you misleading people with.

Yes take out all free tires as part of the deal and let everyone who has races FV in the last 5 years vote. You may even get a vote too in that case

[Hardingfv32]

]FV competitors have spoken with their money by keeping it in their pocket or spending it on other things and parking their cars in the garage.

You or anyone else know for sure why participation is down. Just useless speculation.

Can you or any of the FV historians can go back and show any rule change that precipitated a reduction in FV participation. It has never happened that I know of. Over the history of FV the majority of competitor eventually always get what they wanted. For someone new to the class some of the rules look stupid now.... but at the time I can assure you the rules were exactly what we wanted.

Brian

[Matt King]

I'm not speculating why they left and it really doesn't matter why. The fact is that they have left the class in droves, so your argument that FV competitors have supported all the rules changes over the years with their money is weak. You say the majority has gotten what they want, but the numbers are less than half what they once were. That should tell you something.

[Hardingfv32]

....I am pointing out that running these DOT tires that you say 95% of the people you talk do not want seem to be enjoyed by many.

No one doubts the Falken users are happy. But the majority has enough knowledge of tire performance to know that the low performance DOT radial from Falken is not even close to provide cornering performance of a slick. Simple as that... the performance is not there. Remember the majority is not a cost sensitive group. They were not giving much thought to a spec tire until they toke notice of the FF effort. The Falken cost advantage holds no significant importance with them.

I think you will find that the Challenge Cup operates on a completely different cost and performance level to the majority of SCCA FV competitors. As an example how many Vortech FVs are running the series? I am willing to bet zero. The Falken is completely valid for this series.

Brian

[Tiago Santos]

What frustrates me about the Falken push is that:
1. Tires that fit our current wheels are being discounted - what about the Federal, Nankang, Toyo 888s, ARs, or harder Hoosiers on our current wheels? How does switching wheels get more cars to come out to race? New wheels goes totally against getting the parked cars back on track. It just doesn't make sense to me.

They're not being completely discounted. Some of us are just favoring something that has been in use for a very long time, used by lots of people successfully and that is proven to work - versus wasting another handful of years discussing the pros and cons of 5 different options that no one has any experience with.

2. The implication that if we went to a treaded radial (Falken, 888, whatever) that it would allow for regular folk to be competitive again. (...) Switching to Falkens aint gonna flip the grid on its head.

Exactly. I never said the grid would be flipped on it's head or that anyone but the current front runners will be at the front. That's my point - if things will most likely stay the same, why not save everyone some money? That said, tires that are pretty much a constant eliminate a huge variable for mid pack runners.

The push should be what's best for cost containment and gets the barn cars back on track while attracting new blood. We (as in SCCA) need to provide more value to our current and potential "customers".

What do you think is driving the current push for spec tires and Falkens specifically? Folks have been talking about this for years and the response from the SCCA drivers was always "yeah, but it'll never work in SCCA, Canada is different". Someone finally tried it in SCCA and look what happened - it worked, beautifully.

The cheapest FV option would be a tire that fits our current wheel and lasts a long time. Obviously, having the same wheel allows for the barn cars to come back with only having to purchase new rubber. If we switch to Falkens it will be a wheel AND tire purchase. Keep the narrow wheels and find a long lasting solution that works on them, sell the idea without the competitiveness bait and switch, and I am in.

Like you, most folks also don't need math lessons. They know getting a barn car on track isn't as simple as buying new tires. I've been out for a year and half and I already need tires, belts and a helmet, at least. Bad timing, I guess, but if a car has been sitting for 5 years or longer, it'll need a significant amount of money to be safe again. The price of a set of wheels that you'll be using for years to come is offset right at the initial purchase, let alone the end of a season or four.

There is no competitiveness bait and switch - it's about saving money in a way that doesn't impact the racing. Actually there might be an impact in the mid pack guys who would now be racing closer to each other since they're not playing the "how old is your tire today?" lottery. And that's not about competitiveness, it's about having fun, close racing - case in point, the feedback we've been getting from the Challenge Cup this year, and the feedback from F1200 for the last decade or two.

[Hardingfv32]

but the numbers are less than half what they once were. That should tell you something.

Ah.. but you are mixing the rule set with all the other factors that the FV rule set does not control. A very weak argument not to include the many outside influences.

Fact... you can not demonstrate a FV rule that caused a reduction in participation. The majority has always been happy... at the time... with rules as they were developed.

[budawe]

Boy, has this discussion gone south! Problem with all this arguing is that it is turning people off and reducing their willingness to write a letter. Some will figure you guys will choose the tire, they think the process isn't worth it.

Speaking of process, while I was not part of the details, the FF program involved several tire companies and they were asked to respond to a RFP. Not everyone responded, but the CRB reviewed the responses had lengthy discussions and chose a tire. Will everyone be happy? Of course not, but that's not grounds to disparage the CRB folks or accuse a company of "buying" the process.

Not everyone will be happy if vees get their spec tire. That's why we have regional programs that provide the flexibility to deliver what local folks want. The Falken NE program is just one of programs available. Anywhere there is single class racing for us gets good turnouts regardless of tire used and maybe we should concentrate more time on that concept.

Let's be a little patient and spend our energies convincing our friends to write a letter and thinking about better events to attract more people out of the garage.

[Hardingfv32]

... Someone finally tried it in SCCA and look what happened - it worked, beautifully....

Your are trying to assign all the success of the Challenge series to the Falkin tires... just as it was once said in regard to the use of AR's in the SFR Regional program. Now the SFR series is dead. Why should we not think that the Challenge series will fail.

The whole use of the Challenge series is a weak argument. The best that can be said is that most of the competitors are happy with using Falkens. Knowing the level of competitiveness of the cars involved.. I can accept that.

Brian

[Tiago Santos]

But would you agree that my example of the dead SFR Regonal FV program does not support it?

I think you know the spec tire did have a lot to do with the many years of success regional racing had in SFR. I think you also know it had little to do with it's demise.

[Hardingfv32]

Boy, has this discussion gone south! Problem with all this arguing is that it is turning people off and reducing their willingness to write a letter...Let's be a little patient and spend our energies convincing our friends to write a letter and thinking about better events to attract more people out of the garage.

1) Why would the discussion not motivate people to write in?

2) What can SCCA do to help us contact FV participants? Me thinks nothing...

3) Do you have any clue of practical options that go beyond the Falkens or a slick (probably Hoosier)? Why should it take much energy or time from the CRB etc. when the choices are so narrow. There are no other choices period!

Brian

[problemchild]

Clarify.... I should have stated the success of the FF Spec tire 'process'. In the past it has been difficult to get a Spec tire approved by SCCA.

Clearly you are unhappy with what the FF tea leaves are indicating.

Brian

Does any body feel reassured that this SCCA spec tire process is worthy of trust. Brian already knows the outcome of the FF process, but cannot even control himself to keep it a secret. No announcement. No request for input from competitors. Hmmmmm .....

[problemchild]

The best solution would be for Hoosier to develop a "once a year" tire that had parameters like:

- zero performance fall-off for 10 cycles
- less than .05% performance fall-off after 40 cycles
- wear more than 50 cycles
- grooves so that it could be used in the rain
- target price $150 each
- build from 23.0 or 22.5 molds
- same size all 4 corners

Then we allow the Falken package as an alternate tire and ban all tire sponsorships and contingencies (which will make the $150 tire doable).

There that was so simple. Ship it. Done!

If we convince Hoosier to only produce and sell this tire, then we don't need SCCA or ETPF. All we need is to allow the Falken as an alternate tire. That would be so simple. Win-Win. Anyone who could not accept this plan could truly call themselves elitist.

I provided the ideal compromise.
No comments. One like.

At worst, a viable 2nd choice when you send in your letter in favor of buying tires often or buying them occasionally. Its time to find some middle ground. A 51% - 49% split in preference after several years of ETPF is not really the goal. Lets find a win-win,

[Steve Bamford]

The whole use of the Challenge series is a weak argument. The best that can be said is that most of the competitors are happy with using Falkens. Knowing the level of competitiveness of the cars involved.. I can accept that.

Brian

Wow, people who are actually competing in the largest FV fields across North America who are happy with their tire package is something that you think should be completely dismissed? Or to use your words is a weak argument?

Then after that you go on to insult level of competitiveness?

I have run on both DOT tires and slicks so I can have a more educated opinion then you do. Do you care to question my competitiveness as a driver at any level?

[wyztek]

(Canada no longer has pennies)

My experience is only with American Racers and Hoosiers (and Goodyears but that's history).

I find the ARs more fun to drive; I feel the car starting to go loose and can play with it much more. However they are a second slower. I'm pretty sure though that they stay consistent much longer. However they may drop off after 15 to 20 heat cycles. They do leak air which was the biggest complaint about them.

The Hoosiers are outstanding tires for about 6 heat cycles. I've got to 17 heat cycles a few times and started to show cord once. They appear to drop off at about 1/10 second per heat cycle. Last weekend I switched from a 12 hc Hoosier to a 5 hc Hoosier for the second race and dropped my fastest lap by 0.6 sec. I haven't experienced a dramatic dropoff in performance, just the inexorable loss of 1/10 sec per session. The tire is harsher and much harder to slide (for me). Maybe my car is set up for the more flexible ARs so that's why they seem more enjoyable to drive.

I wish we could have a spec tire that was long lasting and consistent over a large number of heat cycles. I think the American Racers do that. It sounds like the Falkens do it. Not sure that Hoosier will supply a compound that will do that. To spend $3000 per year to maintain a 1 second advantage over the slower tire (which would cost $600 a year) is frustrating. I'm doing it for now, but probably not for much longer.

My final 1/5 of a nickle: I can't help wondering if a lot of support for high performance slicks with short cycle life is a) a way to 'buy' a win or b) a built in excuse for losing - 'no wonder you beat me, your tires had 2 less heat cycles than mine.'

[Matt King]

Ah.. but you are mixing the rule set with all the other factors that the FV rule set does not control. A very weak argument not to include the many outside influences.

Fact... you can not demonstrate a FV rule that caused a reduction in participation. The majority has always been happy... at the time... with rules as they were developed.

By your logic, when there is one racer left remaining in FV, the class will have achieved the perfect ruleset.

[nbrigido]

Your are trying to assign all the success of the Challenge series to the Falkin tires... just as it was once said in regard to the use of AR's in the SFR Regional program. Now the SFR series is dead. Why should we not think that the Challenge series will fail.

The whole use of the Challenge series is a weak argument. The best that can be said is that most of the competitors are happy with using Falkens. Knowing the level of competitiveness of the cars involved.. I can accept that.

Brian

Now we are getting insulting..

[nbrigido]

(Canada no longer has pennies)

My experience is only with American Racers and Hoosiers (and Goodyears but that's history).

I find the ARs more fun to drive; I feel the car starting to go loose and can play with it much more. However they are a second slower. I'm pretty sure though that they stay consistent much longer. However they may drop off after 15 to 20 heat cycles. They do leak air which was the biggest complaint about them.

The Hoosiers are outstanding tires for about 6 heat cycles. I've got to 17 heat cycles a few times and started to show cord once. They appear to drop off at about 1/10 second per heat cycle. Last weekend I switched from a 12 hc Hoosier to a 5 hc Hoosier for the second race and dropped my fastest lap by 0.6 sec. I haven't experienced a dramatic dropoff in performance, just the inexorable loss of 1/10 sec per session. The tire is harsher and much harder to slide (for me). Maybe my car is set up for the more flexible ARs so that's why they seem more enjoyable to drive.

I wish we could have a spec tire that was long lasting and consistent over a large number of heat cycles. I think the American Racers do that. It sounds like the Falkens do it. Not sure that Hoosier will supply a compound that will do that. To spend $3000 per year to maintain a 1 second advantage over the slower tire (which would cost $600 a year) is frustrating. I'm doing it for now, but probably not for much longer.

My final 1/5 of a nickle: I can't help wondering if a lot of support for high performance slicks with short cycle life is a) a way to 'buy' a win or b) a built in excuse for losing - 'no wonder you beat me, your tires had 2 less heat cycles than mine.'

I all fairness, I have heard that AR has no interest in FV racing? Making this a "Non Viable Option" unless I received wrong information?