Hoosier Spec Tire for FV

[Mason66]

Your are trying to assign all the success of the Challenge series to the Falkin tires... just as it was once said in regard to the use of AR's in the SFR Regional program. Now the SFR series is dead. Why should we not think that the Challenge series will fail.

The whole use of the Challenge series is a weak argument. The best that can be said is that most of the competitors are happy with using Falkens. Knowing the level of competitiveness of the cars involved.. I can accept that.

Brian

Brian, Are you a dealer for Hoosier? Do you currently race a FV? If so pardon my ignorance. I'm not familiar with your expertise, I've only heard about the manifolds you produce.

[Steve Davis]

The problem is, and has always been, that the people that vote for these rules are the die hard, elite, minority of the class. Most of them have no concern for the overall good of the class and just want to improve their own agendas.

The class is dying because we have lost the little guy that mostly runs at the regional level or might do an occasional Major here and there.

If your first 2 sentences are true, then obviously THEY (the 'elite') are the ones sending letters to the CRB and the "little guy" doesn't care enough to bother with that effort.
Remember, however, that letters to the CRB are not VOTES. We are far from 'voting' yet. The topic is not yet even under consideration by the CRB due to a lack of letters requesting it.

Brian you make some valid points, so let's put this out there. Hey maybe it is reaching too far for the powers to be?

The "Powers that Be" do NOT go by what is said on the forums .. AT ALL. They **ONLY** consider letters that are properly submitted to the CRB. With all the hoopla that this topic has brought up on the forums, you'd think there would be a TON of letters to the CRB.. but, so far, that is NOT the case.

One is left to presume that MOST drivers out there either don't pay any attention to the forums ... and also don't pay any attention to the Committee Minutes or emails.. or .. they really just DON'T CARE. Which could mean that they will just QUIT if they don't like how it goes .. or they'll just DEAL WITH IT and proceed on. Your guess is as good as mine as to which way would have the BEST impact on the class.

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

If your first 2 sentences are true, then obviously THEY (the 'elite') are the ones sending letters to the CRB and the "little guy" doesn't care enough to bother with that effort.

Steve, Yes, exactly.......

I understand that for this current situation that we are simply asking for the board to look into the validity of a spec tire. I sent my request as have many of my FV friends.

I think the little guy is the regional racer. I was a regional racer for many years and frankly still am. The little guy's are not really in tune with what is happening at the national, or Major level. I never really cared about nationals throughout most of my 35 years of racing. The problem is the national (Major) guys are the ones effecting the rules package with their wizzy bits votes. Thus these rule changes trickle down to the regional level and the racers think to themselves, now I need to buy a $1,200.00 manifold to be competitive? Even though that really isn't necessarily true it effects peoples psyche. Then they look at their 5 year old car sitting in the garage and think about the new belts, hans device, new helmet, 6 heat cycle tires, $600.00 entry fee's, etc....... It is mentally exhausting and sucks the joy out the whole thing.

[Daryl DeArman]

My final 1/5 of a nickle: I can't help wondering if a lot of support for high performance slicks with short cycle life is a) a way to 'buy' a win or b) a built in excuse for losing - 'no wonder you beat me, your tires had 2 less heat cycles than mine.'

There are definitely some of those types on the grid.

[Steve Davis]

... The problem is the national (Major) guys are the ones effecting the rules package with their wizzy bits votes. Thus these rule changes trickle down to the regional level and the racers think to themselves, now I need to buy a $1,200.00 manifold to be competitive? ...

Let's be clear about this. NO MAJORS GUYS .. nor ANY GROUP OF DRIVERS created the $1200++ manifold issue. That was not a CHANGE in the rules.. it was simply a CHANGE in the way that some people interpreted the rule. I have to say, that I came VERY CLOSE to cutting my racing back to the 'regional concept' at that time. I was EXTREMELY PO'd about it as was EVERYONE on the Committee. But we had no say in the matter. We even spent the next almost TWO YEARS coming up with a "cheap" (relatively speaking) alternative that would make most people quite happy - SCCA ignored our recommendations TWO TIMES ... and we are where we are today.

Someone asked earlier about ANY rules change in FV history that caused a measurable drop in FV participation. THAT "change" .. even though it was not a RULES change did just that. It's hard to find PAPER that proves it, but I heard from a LOT of people that decided to JUST QUIT rather than spend that money on a new manifold and I know of quite a few cars gathering dust in basements or hanging on garage walls now because of it.

[nbrigido]

Let's be clear about this. NO MAJORS GUYS .. nor ANY GROUP OF DRIVERS created the $1200++ manifold issue. That was not a CHANGE in the rules.. it was simply a CHANGE in the way that some people interpreted the rule. I have to say, that I came VERY CLOSE to cutting my racing back to the 'regional concept' at that time. I was EXTREMELY PO'd about it as was EVERYONE on the Committee. But we had no say in the matter. We even spent the next almost TWO YEARS coming up with a "cheap" (relatively speaking) alternative that would make most people quite happy - SCCA ignored our recommendations TWO TIMES ... and we are where we are today.

Someone asked earlier about ANY rules change in FV history that caused a measurable drop in FV participation. THAT "change" .. even though it was not a RULES change did just that. It's hard to find PAPER that proves it, but I heard from a LOT of people that decided to JUST QUIT rather than spend that money on a new manifold and I know of quite a few cars gathering dust in basements or hanging on garage walls now because of it.

I agree whole hearted...We are lucky that with the F1200 series over the years. People in charge at the time had the foresight to see that manifold issue coming north, and wrote the rules to prevent it from happening.

I also agree that a process needs to be followed with proper information being put out there to have a SPEC tire approved. at the same time, if the SCCA ignored requests on a manifold issue, will they do the same here?

A SPEC tire alone is not going to be the saving grace in FV, nor will is be the demise of a region, that has been said many times. But is it one of the most costly expenses we can control and/or put a control on.

At the end of the day it is MY opinion that reduction of costs will gain us more drivers than it will loose. and if we gain more drivers the chance of having more single series races will increase. SPEC tire is a start...

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

Someone asked earlier about ANY rules change in FV history that caused a measurable drop in FV participation. THAT "change" .. even though it was not a RULES change did just that. It's hard to find PAPER that proves it, but I heard from a LOT of people that decided to JUST QUIT rather than spend that money on a new manifold and I know of quite a few cars gathering dust in basements or hanging on garage walls now because of it.

Exactly right. Call it a rules interpretation or what ever you want. I agree it was the defining moment in the decline.

[FVRacer21]

For all those saying "oh yeah -well prove it". It took me all of 3 minutes to find the survey results from 2012. Here the are in their entirety - read them and on with round two.

ChrisZ


In an effort to consolidate the conversation, please post responses to the survey in this thread. That will make it easier for us all to follow the conversation as opposed to spreading the discussion across multiple forum and chat boards. Thank you to all who responded with input.

Overall Responses:
Would you support a spec tire?
195: Yes (77% of all)
55: No (22% of all)
2: Blank (1%)
Respondents – 252

What would be your preferred tire option if a spec tire were adopted?
175: Run a specifically designed slick (70% of all)
33: Change to a wider tire, similar to FST (13% of all)
20: Run a treaded hard tire, similar to a vintage tire (8% of all)
15: Move to a DOT Tire (6% of all)
9: Blank (3%)

If a spec tire was adopted, would you continue to race? (Only those who voted NO)
33: I would race anyway (60%)
20: I would race less or quit FV (36% of NO to Spec Tire – 8% of all respondents)
2: Blank (4%)

Do you race in FV Today?
122: Yes, 5 or more races per year (48%)
49: Yes, less than 5 races per year (19%)
19: Yes, less than 5 races per year, but I expect to race more if a spec tire is adopted. (8%)
29: No, but I would be more inclined to race FV if there were a spec tire. (12%)
33: No (13%)

Responses only from those self described as ‘racing today’:
Would you support a spec tire?
141: Yes (74%)
47: No (25%)
2: Blank (1%)
Respondents – 190

What would be your preferred tire option if a spec tire were adopted?
139: Run a specifically designed slick (73%)
18: Change to a wider tire, similar to FST (9%)
15: Run a treaded hard tire, similar to a vintage tire (8%)
11: Move to a DOT Tire (6%)
7: Blank (4%)

If a spec tire was adopted, would you continue to race? (Only those who voted NO)
27: I would race anyway (57%)
19: I would race less or quit FV (40% of NO to Spec Tire – 10% of respondents from ‘racing today’ group)
1: Blank (2%)

Responses only from those in the 2011 National Points:

Would you support a spec tire?
38 national drivers: Yes (70%)
16 national drivers: No (30%)
Respondents – 54

What would be your preferred tire option if a spec tire were adopted?
43: Run a specifically designed slick (80%)
5: Change to a wider tire (9%)
3: Change to a DOT tire (6%)
2: Treaded Tire (4%)
1: Blank (2%)

If a spec tire was adopted, would you continue to race? (Only those who voted NO)
9: I would race anyway(56%)
6: I would race less or quit FV (38% of NO to Spec Tire – 11% of respondents from 2011 National Points group)
1: Blank (6%)


Full Results Of Survey Below:
Formula Vee Spec Tire Survey
Response Status: Completes
Filter: No filter applied


1. Do you race in FV today?
Yes, 5 or more races per year. 122 48%
Yes, less than 5 races per year. 49 19%
Yes, less than 5 races per year, but I expect to race more if there were a spec tire. 19 8%
No, but I would be more inclined to race a Formula Vee if there were a spec tire. 29 12%
No 33 13%
Total 252 100%


2. Is the cost of racing a significant deterrent to your racing (or racing more)?
Yes 205 82%
No 44 18%
Total 249 100%


3. What is your largest area of expense in FV racing today?
Travel (gas, hotel, etc.) 65 26%
Tires 65 26%
Entry fees 92 37%
Development (engine, shocks, chassis, etc.) 19 8%
Crash damage 1 0%
Other 4 2%
Total 246 100%


4. Of those items, which two expenses do you think could be best controlled or lowered with rule changes?
Travel (gas, hotel, etc.) 7 3%
Tires 189 78%
Entry fees 64 26%
Development (engine, shocks, chassis, etc.) 116 48%
Crash damage 9 4%
Other 21 9%


5. Would you like to see a spec tire implemented for Formula Vee with the intent of lowering overall tire expenses?
Yes 195 78%
No 55 22%
Total 250 100%


6. Do you think a spec tire for Formula Vee in SCCA would increase participation in FV?
Yes 139 55%
No 112 45%
Total 251 100%


7. If you are not in favor of a spec tire in Formula Vee, would having to race a spec tire cause you to race less or quit racing Formula Vee?
Not applicable, I support a spec tire. 136 57%
Yes, I would race less or quit racing FV 21 9%
No, I would race anyway. 81 34%
Total 238 100%


8. If given the following options for a spec tire, which would be your preference?
Run a specifically designed slick tire by Hoosier, Goodyear, American Racer, or other; that fits on existing FV rims, is a racing slick compound and is designed to last 12-15 heat cycles with very little grip degradation. Rubber to last 20+ sessions. 175 72%
A treaded hard tire, similar to the vintage tire, on existing rims. 20 8%
Move to a DOT tire on different rims similar to those used in the F1200 series. (requires a one time purchase of new wheels) 15 6%
Change to a wider tire, on different rims, similar to the FST tire used today. (requires a one time purchase of new wheels) 33 14%

[nbrigido]

No one doubts the Falken users are happy. But the [U]majority[/U] has enough knowledge of tire performance to know that the low performance DOT radial from Falken is not even close to provide cornering performance of a slick. Simple as that... the performance is not there. Remember the majority is not a cost sensitive group. They were not giving much thought to a spec tire until they toke notice of the FF effort. The Falken cost advantage holds no significant importance with them.

I think you will find that the Challenge Cup operates on a completely different cost and performance level to the majority of SCCA FV competitors. As an example how many Vortech FVs are running the series? I am willing to bet zero. The Falken is completely valid for this series.

Brian

For my own personal knowledge and so I am properly informed. I keep hearing about the "majority" Can anyone quantify this number? the majority of what? who? based on what? not trying to be an ass, but really want to know.

Secondly, what does the fact that a Vortech is not running relate to competitiveness or performance to a majority of SCCA members. IS no other car competitive?

If I am to take this statement at face value, there must be hundreds of Vortechs running together in all other series, "because the majority of SCCA FV Competitors" requires them to be competitive.



I see 4 Vortechs below? 6 Protoforms 5 of which are a head of the first Vortech.

BTW 2104 Runoffs.

1, (6), Rick Shields, Bridgeville, PA, VDF-2 Vee, 20.
2, (10), Quinn Posner, Camas, WA, Protoform P3, 20.
3, (18), Gavin Sweeney, New York, NY, Crusader FV, 20.
4, (4), Jonathan Weisheit, Baltimore, MD, J.K Technologies LLC XP1, 20.
5, (20), Marjorie Lundberg, Glendale, CA, Caracal C, 20.
6, (13), Blake Tatum, Stockton, CA, Crusader FV, 20.
7, (19), Aaron Meyer, Rocklin, CA, Protoform P3, 20.
8, (25), Larry McKenzie, San Leandro, CA, Mysterian M3, 20.
9, (26), Russell Fredericks, Northport, NY, Caracal D, 20.
10, (15), Skip Streets, San Clemente, CA, Mysterian M3, 20.
11, (22), Paul Higgins, Abbotsford, BC, Protoform FV-P2, 20.
12, (30), Ron Whitston, Neenah, WI, Protoform P2, 20.
13, (31), Ron Bonham, Halsey, OR, Protoform P2, 20.
14, (29), Charlie Turner, Mission Viejo, CA, Vortech FV, 20.
15, (21), Kim Madrid, Rancho Cucamonga, CA, Lazer MK 2.5, 20.
16, (27), Don Manthe, Santa Rosa, CA, Volkswagen FV, 20.
17, (32), Harry Schneider, Cape Coral, FL, Adams Aero, 19.
18, (23), Lisa Noble, Manhattan, KS, Vortech FV, 18.
19, (9), Don Pepperdene, Monterey, CA, Slick Mk1, 14.
20, (17), Robert Neumeister, Pueblo, CO, Vortech FV, 14.
21, (11), Brian McCarthy, Sacramento, CA, Anduril FV, 11.
22, (12), Ron Wake, Lafayette, CA, Mysterian M4, 6.
23, (8), Jake Pipal, Oakdale, CA, Caracal C, 5.
24, (24), Kevin Gordon, Santa Clarita, CA, Crusader FV, 3.
25, (2), Dennis Andrade, Brush Prairie, WA, Vortech 5, 0.
26, (1), Michael Varacins, Burlington, WI, Speed Sport AM-5, 0.
27, (14), Brian Swanson, Petaluma, CA, Mysterian M3, 0.
28, (16), Gary Kittell, Tully, NY, Caracal D/SB, 0.
29, (28), Richard Gordon, Walnut Grove, CA, Crusader FV, 0.
DQ, (5), Terran Swanson, Petaluma, CA, Mysterian M4, 20.
DQ, (7), Roger Siebenaler, North Hero, VT, Mysterian M2, 20.
DQ, (3), Andrew Whitston, Neenah, WI, Protoform P2, 20.

[B Farnham]

Your are trying to assign all the success of the Challenge series to the Falkin tires... just as it was once said in regard to the use of AR's in the SFR Regional program. Now the SFR series is dead. Why should we not think that the Challenge series will fail.

The whole use of the Challenge series is a weak argument. The best that can be said is that most of the competitors are happy with using Falkens. Knowing the level of competitiveness of the cars involved.. I can accept that.

Brian

Do you even race anymore? If so it would be great for you to come out and show the challenge cup group how to drive.

[B Farnham]

I'd just be happy with a tire that lasted 2-3 weekends and didn't have a large drop off in performance. We always talk about trying to bring younger guys to ther class but how many guys under 30 can afford a new set of tires every weekend? I'm a recent college grad and put any extra money I have into racing. Its crazy when a new set of tires is the majority of one of my paychecks and they are only competitive for one maybe two weekends at the national level.

[Tiago Santos]

Knowing the level of competitiveness of the cars involved.. I can accept that.

Even though I haven't quite yet figured out what your angle and agenda really is on this spec tire debate, I'm sure it'll surface soon enough. We all know you're smart enough to understand the issues clearly and hopefully everyone on the forum is familiar with your modus operandi by now.

Can you explain us clearly what the relationship is between "level of competitiveness" and tire choices? Are classes like Spec Miata pretty tame and lacking your fabled "elitist" drivers because they run treaded radials? Did the UK Formula Fords run Avon ACB10s because the drivers were all happy to just be out on track on leisurely drives?

[Mason66]

The link below will direct you to the SCCA rule making flow chart which shows the steps that should be taken by club members to have rules either adjusted or implemented in a particular car class. You will need to zoom in on page 2 of this link to see the break down of the rulemaking process. It does state that letters to the club office are gathered and given to the CRB for consideration, if enough letters are written on a specific matter.

I have also added the link to submit a request to the SCCA as well. Feel free to share your thoughts on this comment.

http://cdn.growassets.net/user_files...pdf?1432133572

https://www.crbscca.com/

[Daryl DeArman]

Couple of thoughts from the peanut gallery....ponder if you will.


Why is anybody that is okay with a 3-6 sets of tires per season but is opposed to buying a good manifold once every decade?

Why is anybody that is okay with spending $800 on a set of tires opposed to spending less than $800 on a set of wheels AND tires? Wheels that will be straight enough to arrive at repeatable toe and camber measurements off of the wheel? Wheels that aren't 50 years old.

[problemchild]

Even though I haven't quite yet figured out what your angle and agenda really is ?

Just social contact and companionship. It gets lonely working in a shop by yourself.

[Chris Elwell]

Brian, I don't see your name on this list? The first part of being competitive is actually showing up to races. Why don't you go bury your head in the sand and let us have fun in our series with our radial tires. At least we're trying to help the class instead of just sitting behind a computer bitching.

2014 Runoffs.

1, (6), Rick Shields, Bridgeville, PA, VDF-2 Vee, 20.
2, (10), Quinn Posner, Camas, WA, Protoform P3, 20.
3, (18), Gavin Sweeney, New York, NY, Crusader FV, 20.
4, (4), Jonathan Weisheit, Baltimore, MD, J.K Technologies LLC XP1, 20.
5, (20), Marjorie Lundberg, Glendale, CA, Caracal C, 20.
6, (13), Blake Tatum, Stockton, CA, Crusader FV, 20.
7, (19), Aaron Meyer, Rocklin, CA, Protoform P3, 20.
8, (25), Larry McKenzie, San Leandro, CA, Mysterian M3, 20.
9, (26), Russell Fredericks, Northport, NY, Caracal D, 20.
10, (15), Skip Streets, San Clemente, CA, Mysterian M3, 20.
11, (22), Paul Higgins, Abbotsford, BC, Protoform FV-P2, 20.
12, (30), Ron Whitston, Neenah, WI, Protoform P2, 20.
13, (31), Ron Bonham, Halsey, OR, Protoform P2, 20.
14, (29), Charlie Turner, Mission Viejo, CA, Vortech FV, 20.
15, (21), Kim Madrid, Rancho Cucamonga, CA, Lazer MK 2.5, 20.
16, (27), Don Manthe, Santa Rosa, CA, Volkswagen FV, 20.
17, (32), Harry Schneider, Cape Coral, FL, Adams Aero, 19.
18, (23), Lisa Noble, Manhattan, KS, Vortech FV, 18.
19, (9), Don Pepperdene, Monterey, CA, Slick Mk1, 14.
20, (17), Robert Neumeister, Pueblo, CO, Vortech FV, 14.
21, (11), Brian McCarthy, Sacramento, CA, Anduril FV, 11.
22, (12), Ron Wake, Lafayette, CA, Mysterian M4, 6.
23, (8), Jake Pipal, Oakdale, CA, Caracal C, 5.
24, (24), Kevin Gordon, Santa Clarita, CA, Crusader FV, 3.
25, (2), Dennis Andrade, Brush Prairie, WA, Vortech 5, 0.
26, (1), Michael Varacins, Burlington, WI, Speed Sport AM-5, 0.
27, (14), Brian Swanson, Petaluma, CA, Mysterian M3, 0.
28, (16), Gary Kittell, Tully, NY, Caracal D/SB, 0.
29, (28), Richard Gordon, Walnut Grove, CA, Crusader FV, 0.
DQ, (5), Terran Swanson, Petaluma, CA, Mysterian M4, 20.
DQ, (7), Roger Siebenaler, North Hero, VT, Mysterian M2, 20.
DQ, (3), Andrew Whitston, Neenah, WI, Protoform P2, 20.[

[rgu]

We in FST are very happy with our R60A Hoosiers. They last a long time and create serious grip. I’m sure Hoosier would oblige and build this compound in a vee size. I’d be a bit concerned how much incentive a Korean tire company would have to continue building a size not used on many contemporary street cars.

Five years from now what will happen?

[Matt King]

^^^ This could be a record for the most posts before FST was brought up in a FV spec tire thread.

[rgu]

Just plugging the R60a compound. Hope a change is made

[derminator]

I would like to personally thank Brian Harding because of your posts we have sold 5 sets of wheels in the last 2 days and have four other drivers, two of which have not raced in a few years, but have committed to run the Challenge Cup next year. Because in their words this is the best thing to happen to FV since its inception.

[nbrigido]

I would like to personally thank Brian Harding because of your posts we have sold 5 sets of wheels in the last 2 days and have four other drivers, two of which have not raced in a few years, but have committed to run the Challenge Cup next year. Because in their words this is the best thing to happen to FV since its inception.

The fact that there IS a viable option (LOW COST) - great performance. is going to driver choice. the fact that not everyone know enough about these tires has been an issues as well.

98+% of drivers have driven on slicks, probably less than 5% have been on the radial package, no fear of the unknown is understandable.

[nbrigido]

There are no other practical choices. A high performance DOT street radial is going to cost as much as a Hoosier slick and you are still straddled with wheel purchases and increased aero drag etc.

Brian

Just to set the story straight on this. The radial package should cost a driver $700 (roughly) complete tires, rims, mounting...that's it. Bolt and go.

That is a 700$ expense for 3 years. That is 3 years of "competitive driving" that translates into $250 year on tires! that is why the radial package is a VIABLE option.

BTW a fresh set is going to be no faster than a set a year old.

On another note, I keep hearing about drivers that get set of used slicks from the drivers that like to change them after 2,3,4... heat cycles. Does this present a safety hazard? if there are drivers tryig to extend the life of tires just to race and be cost effective doing so?

[problemchild]

I would like to personally thank Brian Harding because of your posts we have sold 5 sets of wheels in the last 2 days and have four other drivers, two of which have not raced in a few years, but have committed to run the Challenge Cup next year. Because in their words this is the best thing to happen to FV since its inception.

For all those that intend to take advantage of the Falken opportunity, please go to http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/show...030#post481030
and expand that opportunity.

It will only take a few minutes to copy, paste, and send.

For those not ready to make the plunge, please help protect the FV run group, and fill in that run group with cars without wings and hp.
Thanks!

[Rolling Stone]

It has been stated to me that it was 75% wanted to retain slicks. I do not have access to the poll to verify.

McCarthy stated that AR was not showing any interest a FV Spec tire. That said they are not going complete with Hoosier on performance or durability in a track test. Did AR have anything to offer the FF selection process.... no.

'...give the radial street tire option a fair opportunity...'

What in the world is a fair opportunity?? These are the simple facts:

Falkens are a low performance low cost of operation tire.
Hoosiers are a high performance high cost operation tire.

There are no other practical choices. A high performance DOT street radial is going to cost as much as a Hoosier slick and you are still straddled with wheel purchases and increased aero drag etc.

Now the FV Committee or CRB might want to test each tire to go through the motions politically and/or to validate their importance. Is this the fair opportunity you want?? It proves nothing that we do not already know... the Hoosiers are fast and Falkens very economical. Does this really have to be demonstrated?

What needs to be known by the decision makers is where along gradient of performance to low cost does each FV competitor stand. That simply is not possible without each competitor living with the two tire choices for a while. So really the decision maker is restricted to an unmeasured criteria: performance verses cost in the case of a FV Spec tire. The different committees will go through the motions but the decision is really very simple. Does anyone view this any differently?

If the majority see performance as the most important factor then what choice does the CRB have?

Brian

Increased Aero drag on a vee...now thats funny..my fat Falken tire is costing me one millionth of a second on my aerodynamic racing car .

[Rolling Stone]

You are living a dream... the radial package is unknown outside the NE.

The success of the FF Spec tire effort and tearable wear with the Hoosiers in warm weather is what is motivating me. Called Hoosier... they told me what was possible and what needed done based on their FF experience.

To repeat: The SFRegion used ARs for a decade and now Regional FV is dead/gone. How can you then say this is about bring people back. You are not presenting a logical argument.

Brian

Quite right old boy!!!they are living a dream...US/canadian drivers having a good time after a lot of folks did try something and it worked,I was slow when I raced ,but I couldnt have cared less what tires I was on it just happened to be Falkens SO I saved $$ and had a great time because I was ABLE to race,after all thats what FV/F1200 is supposed to be all about...cheapest way to go open wheel racing .

[Rolling Stone]

Interesting. Brian thinks that a tire package, developed by racers, used by several hundred racers over a 35 year period is an unknown, but having engineers from Hoosier tell SCCA what tire they will provide as a spec tire, is a logical choice based on simple fact. Hmmm......

If Brian is so sure that a clear majority do not want cost to be the deciding factor, why is he fighting so hard to get Hoosier to be awarded the spec tire contract? The elitists are terrified right now that the playing field may become level! Regular folk might be able to race FV competitively AGAIN.

Hes fighting hard to get Hoosier to be awarded the spec tire contact....NOW that is very interesting,I wander what the reason could be?yes! very interesting.

[problemchild]

I would like to personally thank Brian Harding because of your posts we have sold 5 sets of wheels in the last 2 days and have four other drivers, two of which have not raced in a few years, but have committed to run the Challenge Cup next year. Because in their words this is the best thing to happen to FV since its inception.

Now I am really confused. On July 29th, Brian was endorsing the Falkens.
His explanation, analysis, and conclusion were spot on!

With that in mind I reviewed that Falken tire option. Aside from the choice of wheels, which relates to the 14 vs 15" wheel size discussion, this is a no-brainer.

Say the Falkens are race competitive for 4 races (claimed to to be good for 3 seasons), the Hoosier are possibly race competitive for 2 races.

BALLPARK: Falkens $100 & Hoosier $200... shipped and mounted. Now using the Falkens, you must purchase a $80-90 wheel. So the first purchase of Falken tires is equal to the cost of a set of Hoosiers. The cost benefit after the initial purchase of the Falken package is just overwhelming in favor of the Falken combination.

What am I missing?
Give me a list of contacts and I should have no problem selling the Falken package.

Brian

From post #37. http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69327

[derminator]

To solve the answer to the slick vs radial. I have just compaired the times at Pocono. The times are below:

Slicks Race #2
Dean Curtis 146.518
Jack Maloney 150.099
Al Spadin 150.697
Hugh Maloney 153.068

Radial race #2
Dean Curtis 151.822
Jack Maloney 150.757
Al Spadin 151.646
Hugh Maloney 155.520

It is obvious to see that I have better slicks than the other cars
It is also obvious the the radials evened the competition.

So if all drivers started their career on on even playing field. Their chances of becoming discouraged and quitting would would be less. Who knows what future champions fell to the side trying to beat the guy with newer slicks.

Our series is an equal playing field for all. And it will only become better. Feel free to pass this info along. the proof is in the lap time.

Thanks for reading DEAN

[maloneyjack]

Keep in mind that my slicks for the Sunday race were the third heat cycle on them and I managed to only go 0.7 seconds faster then I did on the radials. Dean beat me by 42 seconds on slicks and 6 seconds on radials. There is no doubt that the radials help even the playing field. Two years ago I would've and probably voted for a spec racing slick tire. I would easily change my vote now to running a spec radial. After running the radials the last two weekends, I am hooked. They handle great, there is no changes that need to be made to the car setup and they are a blast to drive on. I have been driving FV for 15 years now in all forms of racing (Solo 1, Solo 2, Regionals, Nationals/Majors, Runoffs). Racing on the radials is the most fun I have ever had racing. Both on and off the track without even taking into consideration the cost savings of running them.
Jack Maloney
FV59

[Speed Sport Engineering]

To solve the answer to the slick vs radial. I have just compaired the times at Pocono. The times are below:

Slicks Race #2
Dean Curtis 146.518
Jack Maloney 150.099
Al Spadin 150.697
Hugh Maloney 153.068

Radial race #2
Dean Curtis 151.822
Jack Maloney 150.757
Al Spadin 151.646
Hugh Maloney 155.520

It is obvious to see that I have better slicks than the other cars
It is also obvious the the radials evened the competition.

So if all drivers started their career on on even playing field. Their chances of becoming discouraged and quitting would would be less. Who knows what future champions fell to the side trying to beat the guy with newer slicks.

Our series is an equal playing field for all. And it will only become better. Feel free to pass this info along. the proof is in the lap time.

Thanks for reading DEAN

Dean / All,

I think the other possibility that needs to be mentioned here is slicks are much more difficult to drive on the edge then a street radial. Slip angles and grip levels make street radials much more forgiving. I would look at this and say it's entirely possible you simply drove better on the slicks then the others. (And I really don't mean any disprespect to anyone here, but a 4 sec difference is not tires.)

I would argue that the Falkens take away some driver skill from the equation...exactly the opposite of what every is claiming of the goal.

Just an observation and hopes of adding some grounding to the cheerleading. It's not as simple as some are saying it is. The hidden costs are huge here...people are just not thinking about them yet.

[Jean-Sebastien Stoezel]

Do radial tire tend to even out the field because of the handling, or because of the added aero drag? The first source of drag on a formula car is the wheels. If the drag of the wheel increases even more due to wider tires, aero development on any cars becomed of lesser importance, thus making all car types more even.

Keep in mind that my slicks for the Sunday race were the third heat cycle on them and I managed to only go 0.7 seconds faster then I did on the radials. Dean beat me by 42 seconds on slicks and 6 seconds on radials. There is no doubt that the radials help even the playing field. Two years ago I would've and probably voted for a spec racing slick tire. I would easily change my vote now to running a spec radial. After running the radials the last two weekends, I am hooked. They handle great, there is no changes that need to be made to the car setup and they are a blast to drive on. I have been driving FV for 15 years now in all forms of racing (Solo 1, Solo 2, Regionals, Nationals/Majors, Runoffs). Racing on the radials is the most fun I have ever had racing. Both on and off the track without even taking into consideration the cost savings of running them.
Jack Maloney
FV59

[maloneyjack]

Do radial tire tend to even out the field because of the handling, or because of the added aero drag? The first source of drag on a formula car is the wheels. If the drag of the wheel increases even more due to wider tires, aero development on any cars becomed of lesser importance, thus making all car types more even.

Isn't the added aero drag from wider wheels the same for all cars switching to these wider wheels?

[craigs]

Thanks Chris for posting the survey results.


So objectively as possible, from the survey results:

• 77% of respondents would support a spec tire
• 74% of those that were “racing today” would support a spec tire
• For all respondents their preferences were:
  
  • 70% specifically designed slick
  • 13% wider tire like FST
  • 8% treaded race tire like vintage
  • 6% DOT tire
• For those “racing today” their preferences were:
  
  • 73% specifically designed slick
  • 9% wider tire like FST
  • 8% treaded race tire like vintage
  • 6% DOT tire

Based on my recollection these numbers were never acted on by the Ad Hoc committee because the CRB declined to look at the issue after they tallied all of the letters against spec tires. I have heard the CRB only counted letters from the prior year's majors points winners - may or may not be true. If true, those letters may not have represented the opinions of the total group of racers or community.

No matter what happened, it looks like 74-77% of the racers and associated community would support a spec tire and the preferences for a spec tire were 70-73% for a spec slick (not a wider one like FST).

To answer the requests of the community, I would love to see the ad hoc committee pick/develop a spec slick and associated phase in plan for implementation in 2016.

Thanks,

Craig

[nbrigido]

Dean / All,

I think the other possibility that needs to be mentioned here is slicks are much more difficult to drive on the edge then a street radial. Slip angles and grip levels make street radials much more forgiving. I would look at this and say it's entirely possible you simply drove better on the slicks then the others. (And I really don't mean any disprespect to anyone here, but a 4 sec difference is not tires.)

I would argue that the Falkens take away some driver skill from the equation...exactly the opposite of what every is claiming of the goal.

Just an observation and hopes of adding some grounding to the cheerleading. It's not as simple as some are saying it is. The hidden costs are huge here...people are just not thinking about them yet.

Honestly, I would venture to say that running the radial does even out the playing field. Where the advantage goes to the driver not the equipment. At the same time when you have cars running closer together, especially FV's the draft is going to play a bigger role. I know people are going to say that the bigger tire is going to punch a bigger hole in the air. But truthfully when you don't have a tire advantage, which EVERYONE has agreed can be had with slicks, chances are drivers with similar skill sets are going to run closer together, the packs are going to get larger, the win is going to be on the final corners of the last lap, and not a 40 second gap.

It is not uncommon to see the top 5 cars cross the finish line less than 2secs apart.

But is that not racing?

[Jean-Sebastien Stoezel]

Yes, but now the only part you can tinker with (bodywork) is a lesser addition to the total amount of drag (it's not just about frontal area, think of an airfoil which has a lesser drag coefficient than an exposed tube of much lesser frontal area).

Isn't the added aero drag from wider wheels the same for all cars switching to these wider wheels?

[Mason66]

Please look at the splits in the screen shot this is from Race two at Pocono. You can also view the full results from the entire weekend at, www.challengecupseries.com

[ATTACH]55320

[nbrigido]

Thanks Chris for posting the survey results.


So objectively as possible, from the survey results:

• 77% of respondents would support a spec tire
• 74% of those that were “racing today” would support a spec tire
• For all respondents their preferences were:
  
  • 70% specifically designed slick
  • 13% wider tire like FST
  • 8% treaded race tire like vintage
  • 6% DOT tire
• For those “racing today” their preferences were:
  
  • 73% specifically designed slick
  • 9% wider tire like FST
  • 8% treaded race tire like vintage
  • 6% DOT tire

Based on my recollection these numbers were never acted on by the Ad Hoc committee because the CRB declined to look at the issue after they tallied all of the letters against spec tires. I have heard the CRB only counted letters from the prior year's majors points winners - may or may not be true. If true, those letters may not have represented the opinions of the total group of racers or community.

No matter what happened, it looks like 74-77% of the racers and associated community would support a spec tire and the preferences for a spec tire were 70-73% for a spec slick (not a wider one like FST).

To answer the requests of the community, I would love to see the ad hoc committee pick/develop a spec slick and associated phase in plan for implementation in 2016.

Thanks,

Craig

To be valid, the whole poll has to be looked at. Even though it was 3 years ago, before there was really any push for a radial, Different Compound.... You have to factor in ALL the results.

Question 3, Tires is not the largest expense, but in Question 4 it is what the majority feels can be better controlled.

The Kicker is #5...Does not matter what tire everyone is looking at. it needs to lower overall expenses. Performance has not be addressed or mentioned. this is about cost.

2. Is the cost of racing a significant deterrent to your racing (or racing more)?
Yes 205 82%
No 44 18%
Total 249 100%


3. What is your largest area of expense in FV racing today?

Travel (gas, hotel, etc.) 65 26%
Tires 65 26%
Entry fees 92 37%
Development (engine, shocks, chassis, etc.) 19 8%
Crash damage 1 0%
Other 4 2%
Total 246 100%


4. Of those items, which two expenses do you think could be best controlled or lowered with rule changes?
Travel (gas, hotel, etc.) 7 3%
Tires 189 78%
Entry fees 64 26%
Development (engine, shocks, chassis, etc.) 116 48%
Crash damage 9 4%
Other 21 9%


5. Would you like to see a spec tire implemented for Formula Vee with the intent of lowering overall tire expenses?
Yes 195 78%
No 55 22%
Total 250 100%


6. Do you think a spec tire for Formula Vee in SCCA would increase participation in FV?
Yes 139 55%
No 112 45%
Total 251 100%

[nbrigido]

Please look at the splits in the screen shot this is from Race two at Pocono. You can also view the full results from the entire weekend at, www.challengecupseries.com

[ATTACH]55320

Dam...Dean is getting faster in his old age...He is a Master

[Matt King]

The hidden costs are huge here...people are just not thinking about them yet.

Michael, I'm curious as to what you consider to be the hidden costs?

[problemchild]

Isn't the added aero drag from wider wheels the same for all cars switching to these wider wheels?

Yes!

All Pros, cons, and cost savings are shared equally among everybody, elitists and regular folk alike.