Hoosier Spec Tire for FV

[grapefarmeral]

Brian, Go to post #29 for the cost comparison

[derminator]

Brian
Here is my contact info for the rims and tires

dermotennis@comast.net or 678-646-1251

[Hardingfv32]

Has anyone contacted Hoosier about a Spec tire for FV?

Brian

[Amon]

We already have one in The Formula Vee Challenge Series that's a Falken radial
which lasts 3-4 years before they aren't competitive. Although Hoosier makes a
good tire, I don't see how it would be beneficial for them to make a spec tire with
any durability?

Mark

[budawe]

For years, the class has discussed having a spec tire and many think the time has come to pursue a spec tire that would be more durable and reduce costs.

As most of you may know, FF is in the final steps to having a spec tire for 2016. The CRB has requested that we follow the same process as FF.

The following is an outline of the steps the FV class will need to follow:

The first step in this process is to formally communicate to the CRB, via the letter system, that the class wants to have a spec tire. If the CRB receives enough letters to indicate adequate support, they will ask the FV AD HOC Committee to conduct a survey of active racers to determine more specifically what the class wants. Once an idea of the type of tire is desired, request for proposals will be sent out to tire manufacturers. A tire will be chosen based on the responses from manufacturers. It's likely that the choice will be made by the ad hoc committee based on the surveys and the responses from manufacturers. Once the choice has been made, a rule change will be submitted by the CRB to the BOD for approval.

The key in beginning the process will be for every competitor in FV to write a letter to the CRB and simply state that you do or don't support a spec tire for the class. At this stage, there is no reason to be writing the BOD. It's important that discussions about specific tires or concepts be left off these first letters and allow the survey process to concentrate on details.

Many folks believe that the letter system is a voting process and the more letters the better. This is not true. Having friends, family and other non competitors write letters, only lessens the value of the letters to the CRB. Believe me, the CRB isn't easily fooled. I urge everyone to take the time and write your own letter and don't just cut and paste something. In this case, the letters are only to express the desires of the class and initiate the more formal process of selection.

Due to time constraints, it's quite remote that we could have something in place for 2016 but if we don't start, nothing will happen.

Here's the link for your letter. www.clubracingboard.com/

[problemchild]

I have talked with Bruce Foss about Hoosier spec tires for FV.

As the FF guys found out, Hoosier wants to make racing tires rather than cheap street radial tires. The FV community needs to decide if they want a racing tire that will last for 4 weekends or a cheap street radial tire that will last for 4 years. That statement was not meant to be inflammatory but an assessment of the situation as I understand it. Once that concept is determined, the path will become quite clear.

[nbrigido]

I don't think that the FV / F1200 community have enough critical mass to have a Tire Manufacturer, focused on making racing tires, make or create a Tire that lasts 1-2 seasons. Does not make economic sense for them to do so.

[jpetillo]

Perhaps it would if they feel they will lose the current business 100%, otherwise.

[B Farnham]

I'd say the Falkens are the best choice by far. Having just raced on them for the first time they really felt great. Theres something to be said about not having to change tires for an entire weekend, plus everyone is on a level playing field. The fact that there isn't a performance advantage between new and used Falkens only adds to the benefits. They look better and you don't have to carry around a set of rains.

We are supposed to be the cost effective entry level class, its time we started acting like it.

[Daryl DeArman]

Perhaps it would if they feel they will lose the current business 100%, otherwise.

Perhaps. Won't know the answer if the question is not asked. Let's say the cost to tool up for this new compound is approaching zero..how many are you going to make so that you can supply everybody that needs this new tire without having tires aging in inventory for a year or two?

Would you be willing to pay $1500/set if they really did last 2 seasons (40+ heat cycles)? If so, what happens when new ones prove to be faster (enough so to warrant purchase by front runners?)

A spec tire has got to be cheap and/or long lasting with no advantage to a new one.

[Chris Elwell]

The Falkens are the best choice. Period. Why do we need to to repeating this same topic?

[nbrigido]

The Falkens are the best choice. Period. Why do we need to to repeating this same topic?

Because until everyone tries them, they will always be sceptical. There are drivers out there that believe that "only" a slick should be used on a race car.

I have hear everything under the sun. No grip, spindles will break, too heavy..you name it someone has an excuse.

Well times have changed, choices are limited, and control costs for FV / F1200 is essential. Not saying the Falken is the best tire, but it has been proven to work and been adopted by many regions and/or series. Diamond racing has worked hard to get the rim correct? Not promoting them Becuase we use them in Canada, but the last thing we need is another spec that limits where drivers can race.

[crypt0zink]

Is there any reason the current Vintage Vee Hoosiers (44405 & 44408) aren't being discussed as a spec option?

They last multiple seasons, fit the current VW rims and you can use them in wet/dry.

[Daryl DeArman]

Is there any reason the current Vintage Vee Hoosiers (44405 & 44408) aren't being discussed as a spec option?

They last multiple seasons, fit the current VW rims and you can use them in wet/dry.

Can you point to anybody racing on these Hoosiers with vigor that got multiple seasons of competitive use from a set?

[Rolling Stone]

Looks dont win races as we all know...BUT Vees "look" much better with the FALKENS on them than slicks

[Steve Bamford]

Looks dont win races as we all know...BUT Vees "look" much better with the FALKENS on them than slicks

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Some like the slicks, others like the Falkens. No one has an ugly child.

[Ed Womer]

After traveling with the Challenge Cup series this year as assistant tech inspect and sponsor I really think that the Diamond wheels and Falken tire package would be the way to go. It is a proven product and it has produced great racing with the Pitt race as proof. As Rolling Stone mentioned looks don't produce good racing but the cars actually do look better with them on.

I remember many years ago the MARRS series experimented with a similar package with the Kuhmo tire and I did use them and thought they were fine. It appears that I might be making a return to vee racing at the season ender at NJ Motorsport race and am looking forward to do so since I won't have to buy a new set of slicks to do so!

Problem is this class as great as it has been seems to be slowly fading away since it seems as no one wants to change anything because they are comfortable with the status quo. So until vee racing disappears only the people who are willing to make changes will do so and if you look at the way the class has evolved since it's inception I don't see why we can't make it work. The biggest thing I see in getting people out other than the ridiculously escalating entrée fees is the need to constantly by tires, so getting rid of one of the biggest expense would be a good start.

Ed

[Parker]

Ed, the come back is pretty cool. Well done.
The real question is what will you be driving. A brand new Womer???

[crypt0zink]

Can you point to anybody racing on these Hoosiers with vigor that got multiple seasons of competitive use from a set?

Yes, me & multiple members of the VSCDA run the Hoosiers (44405 & 44408). Mine are two seasons old and still have plenty of racing life left.

Vintage doesn't equal slow and old, we drive our Vintage Vees with vigor.

http://www.hoosiertire.com/pb010509.htm

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

A spec tire has got to be cheap and/or long lasting with no advantage to a new one.

There already is a perfect spec tire. The American Racer. It is cheap, long lasting, and fast right down to the cord.

[Daryl DeArman]

Vintage doesn't equal slow and old, we drive our Vintage Vees with vigor.

I didn't make that assumption. I raced my FV with VARA. Always at the front.

Yes, some people were getting a season+ out of their tires, but not folks running at the front. I have raced on several tires/classes that were supposed to be "long lasting"-----Bridgestone YBN's, Hoosier Street TD's, American Racers 132, Dunlop Vintage FV.

I admit I never raced on a DOT tire that wasn't a R-Compound. So, perhaps there are front runners getting a season+ out of them. DOT (non-R compound) tires are a completely different beast than the myriad of Hoosier racing tires.

[Hardingfv32]

The Falken package is not going to sell with anyone that has no previous knowledge of it. The wheel offset of the steel wheels clearly would make for some odd handling characteristics. This can not be denied. It is just poor engineering.

Why was Falken not considered by FF? I believe there is a substantial performance reduction using Falken vs say the Toyo 888. In FF the Toyo's are said to be only down a little in performance to the std racing slick. You pay for the performance you want: Falken $90 vs Toyo $150.

Cost is only part of this equation. The average US competitor wants the feel of the performance you get from a racings slick. They are willing to pay for that. You do not see any big push by competitors to do anything about the current one event Hoosier slicks do you... say meetings at events to discuss the topic etc. The Falkens represent too great a reduction in performance be a viable US option.

Brian

[Amon]

Brian,

Glad to see you with another positive post. Have you driven a vee with the Falkens
or spoken with those who have by chance? My son just tried them this past weekend
and enjoyed them. If everyone is on them, then it really doesn't matter if they're 2-3
seconds a lap slower does it? They last 3 three+ years and eliminate the need to haul
around rain tires as well. They're Naysayers and they're those who just get on with it
and don't worry about negativity from those NOT in the know. Which one are you?

Mark

[problemchild]

The Falken package is not going to sell with anyone that has no previous knowledge of it.

FV people are not stupid. You do not need to be an engineer or mathematician to multiply 4 X 95 every 3 or 4 years. Are there enough FV racers still embracing the "elitist" attitudes that brought FV racing to it's current level of participation? I don't know but it appears we will find out over the next little while. Clearly, there are two divided camps here, and one camp is going to have to back down for the "good of the class". The alternative is to battle to the end and delay a spec tire decision forever ..... which has been the standard approach for the class.

The one clear fact that those "on the fence" need to understand is that cheap street radial tires on FVs is a proven, developed program that is 35 years old. Ray Carmody and I were at that first test in 1980 and this program has been in play in Ontario since 1981. Brian Farnham bolted on these tires at Pittrace last weekend and was 2 seconds per lap faster than the Falken regulars, literally from the first lap. It took until the last corner of the last race for him to get beat. The best drivers and teams will prevail, and everyone saves a ton of money!

[Daryl DeArman]

The wheel offset of the steel wheels clearly would make for some odd handling characteristics. This can not be denied. It is just poor engineering.

Any decently handling FV has already been tuned/engineered around a myriad of poorly engineered designs. What's a little bit of the wrong wheel offset in the list of challenges?

The average US competitor wants the feel of the performance you get from a racings slick

I call BS. The average US competitor wants enough grip to beat the guy next to him. Those racing FV aren't doing so for the performance. Think about it. Did you choose to race FV because of the wicked acceleration? Or how about the rip your eyeballs out of their sockets braking? Was it the neck stretching' lateral acceleration? I doubt it. It was most likely the inexpensive competition and simplicity of the package.

If everyone is on them, then it really doesn't matter if they're 2-3
seconds a lap slower does it?

Bingo. Everybody is dealing with the same limitations. All we should be concerned with is our relative performance to those we are racing against.

Why 5" wide tires instead of 8"? Why a 28mm carb instead of a 34mm? Why drum brakes and absurd transaxle ratios?

[Hardingfv32]

I completely agree that simple logic would dictate the use of Falkens. But you have to have something that the US majority can get behind. I can engineer around any mess but I am not the only person voting.

Repeat... Why were Falkens disregard by FF? I am going to assume that the performance of the Falkens is too low. Is the FF driver population any different than the FV driver population.

Driving on the Falkens is going to create an experience that is too negative for the majority of US FV competitors that have always been on slicks. It just is not going to sell. Just a few negative comments will doom the Falken package.

A compromise has to be developed that has more performance than the Falkens.

Brian

[budawe]

There will be as many opinions about tires as there are folks talking about them. Frankly, debating choices is a bit early in the process. Besides, this conversation has been going on for years.

Let's concentrate in convincing vee folks in your respective areas, that don't hang out on the forums, to write a letter.

[Hardingfv32]

What's a little bit of the wrong wheel offset in the list of challenges?...I call BS....All we should be concerned with is our relative performance to those we are racing against.

I have been communicating to other competitors on the subject of a Spec tire. To a person they would simply be happier with a hard Hoosier and failing that a DOT track radial. A full range of budgets and abilities.

To me the steel wheel offset is indicative of a poorly formulated package. Whey go with such a poor offset when for a few dollars more you can get the correct offset with an aluminum wheel. Too much emphasis on providing the lowest cost package. Just a poor compromise.

Relative performance to others could be the most important attribute of the FV driving experience..... but it is not the only one.

Brian

[Rolling Stone]

After traveling with the Challenge Cup series this year as assistant tech inspect and sponsor I really think that the Diamond wheels and Falken tire package would be the way to go. It is a proven product and it has produced great racing with the Pitt race as proof. As Rolling Stone mentioned looks don't produce good racing but the cars actually do look better with them on.

I remember many years ago the MARRS series experimented with a similar package with the Kuhmo tire and I did use them and thought they were fine. It appears that I might be making a return to vee racing at the season ender at NJ Motorsport race and am looking forward to do so since I won't have to buy a new set of slicks to do so!

Problem is this class as great as it has been seems to be slowly fading away since it seems as no one wants to change anything because they are comfortable with the status quo. So until vee racing disappears only the people who are willing to make changes will do so and if you look at the way the class has evolved since it's inception I don't see why we can't make it work. The biggest thing I see in getting people out other than the ridiculously escalating entrée fees is the need to constantly by tires, so getting rid of one of the biggest expense would be a good start.

Ed

Kevin Deevey has a nice Womer for sale

[Daryl DeArman]

I have been communicating to other competitors on the subject of a Spec tire. To a person they would simply be happier with a hard Hoosier and failing that a DOT track radial. A full range of budgets and abilities.

I see the value in supporting those who support us, that includes manufacturers as well as tire dealers. So, I do see some value in continuing with a Hoosier option (I'm also pro-small business) I get all that.

However, as long as the tire isn't significantly cheaper and has some advantage when new, you really haven't had any net gain. The decrease in performance for no real savings.


As to the DOT track radial----I hope you aren't referring to the R-compound tires. If so, you will have tires that have 5-6 fast heat cycles and aren't any cheaper than current slicks. Why would anybody want that over a Falken or American Racer option?

[Rolling Stone]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Some like the slicks, others like the Falkens. No one has an ugly child.

deep man!really deep

[Hardingfv32]

...If so, you will have tires that have 5-6 fast heat cycles and aren't any cheaper than current slicks. Why would anybody want that over a Falken or American Racer option?

Because they perform almost as good as the current slicks! They simply do not want a big change and they are willing to accept lower longevity and a somewhat lower price.

Again why did FF competitors favor Toyo 888's?

AR is not talking to us so we only have the Hoosier for a slick. I do not support Hoosier. They just happen to be making the current slick. If they do not provide a harder slick then go to Toyo 888's. Make it clear very to them that the class as an option. It seems very simple once the Falken contingent compromises.

Brian

[problemchild]

FF competitors chose Toyos because FF promoters jumped at the opportunities provided by Toyo marketing dollars. Just as F1200 racers found that the Falken tire was a great spec tire for their class, the FF competitors found that the Toyo tire worked well as a FF spec tire. To imply that Toyo was selected over Falken for FFs based on any performance criteria is false. The enthusiasm for each tire in each class has just been snowballing. With hundreds of these tires in use in each class, they are certainly proven products that are ready for immediate implementation.

Writing letters before the direction of choice is apparent, is just going around in circles, confusing the SCCA decision-makers, and playing into the "extending the process forever" game.

[Hardingfv32]

How do Toyo marketing dollars relate/benefit the SCCA FF club racer spec tire choice? How did it bias the general preference of FF competitors to prefer Toyo 888's? The Hoosier R6's were a strong second choice with FF. Falken does not have anything equal to the 888's or R6's for performance. I fully appreciate the 888's and R6's come at higher price. Would expect more performance for that price.

That fact is that outside the NE the average FV competitor has no knowledge of the Canadian spec tire combination. I fully appreciate the NE's comfort with the Canadian option but it does not translate into something that will sell across the whole US.

While it would be easy to use price/cost the only criteria it is in fact more complicated than that.

"Writing letters before the direction of choice is apparent, is just going around in circles, confusing the SCCA decision-makers, and playing into the "extending the process forever" game." Completely agree but is the NE up for compromise?

Brian

[problemchild]

How do Toyo marketing dollars relate/benefit the SCCA FF club racer spec tire choice? How did it bias the general preference of FF competitors to prefer Toyo 888's? The Hoosier R6's were a strong second choice with FF. Falken does not have anything equal to the 888's or R6's for performance. I fully appreciate the 888's and R6's come at higher price. Would expect more performance for that price.

That fact is that outside the NE the average FV competitor has no knowledge of the Canadian spec tire combination. I fully appreciate the NE's comfort with the Canadian option but it does not translate into something that will sell across the whole US.

While it would be easy to use price/cost the only criteria it is in fact more complicated than that.

"Writing letters before the direction of choice is apparent, is just going around in circles, confusing the SCCA decision-makers, and playing into the "extending the process forever" game." Completely agree but is the NE up for compromise?

Brian

You're just making this into an engineering process that will take 5 years to play out, Then SCCA can take 5 years to reject it. There are totally proven programs in place that can be adopted by any group of local racers in a matter of days. That is happening already. Spec tire programs in these classes are 3-4 decades overdue. The Toyo FF program will save racers 3-400%. The Falken FV program will save racers 3-4000%. Yes the cars, in each case, will be slower. Those competitors that do not want to lose several % of performance to have these cost savings need to come up with their plan ASAP. In less time than I believe SCCA can change the rules, we could easily see more than half the active racers make the switch to these programs on their own. It would be much better if that happened from the top down, but that is certainly not required. If a few unhappy FV racers move to FF, and a few unhappy FF racers move to FC (or other), but more people race more often because of spec tire programs, then it is a "win-win" for SCCA and every racer in each class.

[nbrigido]

[QUOTE=Hardingfv32;480298
That fact is that outside the NE the average FV competitor has no knowledge of the Canadian spec tire combination. I fully appreciate the NE's comfort with the Canadian option but it does not translate into something that will sell across the whole US.

"Writing letters before the direction of choice is apparent, is just going around in circles, confusing the SCCA decision-makers, and playing into the "extending the process forever" game." Completely agree but is the NE up for compromise?

Brian[/QUOTE]

Since I have been on these forums the discussion of Spec Tires goes on every year, but usually Nov/Dec start. This one is a little early. Why...my gut tells me because the Challenge Cup Series made a decision to adopt spec. and for the most part it seems to be working, along with a combination of other factors. I don't think it has to do with the NE compromising, I think it has to do with the NE making the Decision and going for it, without waiting for anyone else's input.

We can all sit around and talk a say this is good, this sucks, bad engineering...blah, blah, blah. what ever decision is made, it will NOT make everyone happy. but sooner or later one needs to be made.

What does the decision FF made factor on the FV/F1200 community? the car are totally different and react differently.

There bigger picture is bring cars back to the track, and there is no ONE single solution that covers everything. A SPEC tire does address the biggest on going cost factor a driver makes, a descsion that can make him competitive or not. Remove that from the equation and you have the beginning of a formula that seems to work.

-If we can take some of the cost out of racing, this will hopefully bring more cars to the track.
-A SPEC tire will take the advantage of "Extra $$$$" this weekend to be at the top.
-More cars at the track, better change of a single Grid Race.
-Single Grid Race better chance of getting more cars out, racing FV's not FF,FC or anything else.
-All car are equal when it comes to the tires, day 1 or 100.

Again, is the Falken Package the best package, don't know. But it is a FUNCTIONING PACKAGE, does does not require years of testing and debating.

Tell drivers, one set of tires, thats it, they are bolted to the car. If it rains no change. IT may be hard to comprehend, but it is true.

There are a couple of sets being tested in California right now, i think for vintage vee's.

Anyone else have a better and quicker idea, that does not divide the series even further.

[Amon]

The Formula Vee Challenge Cup series decided NOT to wait around for the SCCA or anyone else to come up with an alternative. They're proactive in their decision making and will continue to be proactive. If you're not interested, so be it but the train has left the station and you can either buy tires once every 3-4 years, or continue to buy them every 3-4 weekends if you're a regional racer and every weekend if you run the Majors program. It's your decision on how much you want to spend but don't complain about costs when alternatives already exist. Letter writing and waiting for the SCCA to arrive at a decision five years from now is old school way of doing things and as Greg said, we need solutions now and not five or ten years from now.


Mark

[Tiago Santos]

What FF's decision has to do with FV is that, if Vees continue running $900 tires that last two weekends, while FF's move to a tire that lasts all year, there is very little reason I'd stay in FV. Sure, we all love the class and the racing is usually close, fun and intense, but are you kidding? If running costs are the same or cheaper in FF, I find it hard to believe most folks wouldn't seriously consider making the jump.

[Hardingfv32]

What does the decision FF made factor on the FV/F1200 community? the car are totally different and react differently

The drivers in FF are no different than those in FV. The restricted rule set criteria is the same as FV. What the FF class does is indicative of what the average SCCA driver wants in the way of tires. It is not the cheapest possible package but the best compromise between cost and performance.

In fact do the NE Regional competitors really care what SCCA does for the rest of the country in terms of a spec tire? I gather it is 'our way only' from the NE Regional competitors.

Brian

[Hardingfv32]

if Vees continue running $900 tires that last two weekends, while FF's move to a tire that lasts all year.

The current FV slick does not last two weekends.

The new FF spec tire will be good for 3 events/weekends at the most.

Brian