Hoosier Spec Tire for FV

[nbrigido]

It's good to see a debate. That the Falken package is something to consider has been beaten to death. Yes, it's an option - let's put it on the table as and option and move forward.

If we're going to make such a radical change to the FV class in the US, then not building up a list of possible options and approaches - with new ideas - and just going with a 35 year old idea would be a disservice to the class and community. We should be considering that any change in rules should expect to remain stable for the long term. Let's think that way. Let's see what we can do that is new, and then see how it compares with what is currently done.

I'd say to forget about the current slicks and the Falkens and think new, and then see where that gets us. John

John, you are correct. All options should be on the table, but what I personally think this process will fail. My personal opinion. We need to look at what we want as a class. At the same time what are the minimum requirements everyone is looking for.

Do we want a tire that last 3 weekend, 1 season, 3 seasons.

Is the tire choice still promote 'pay for performance' i.e. stickers will be 1 second faster than 3 heats cycles.

Costs?

[nbrigido]

How many are you?
Do any of you race outside of Canada or the NE Region? If so how many?

Honestly, cannot even begin to answer that question. Nor do I think it is relevant. Everyone is looking at the as Falken or nothing? Which, is not the case.

What people are saying about a spec radial, the current package is tested and working. If there are other options bring them forward.

There was mention of toyo's that FF is using, but is there data on them from a FV? If so they should be looked at.

[Matt King]

Pursuing a spec tire is a waste of time. What proponents of the Falken should be doing is pushing for an alternate tire in SCCA. If the Falken or similar street radial was allowed nationally, it would be much easier to convert people over to it. The fact is that in most races the tire package is not really the decisive factor that separates the "elite" from the rest of the pack. So let those guys run on their new sticker Hoosiers every weekend while the "back markers" have just as much fun on cheap tires.

[Rolling Stone]

F1200/FV "ELITE" now thats bloody funny

[Agitator]

The spec tire is not going to get more cars on the track.

Brian

I, for one, would get back in my car in a second if a spec tire was approved. And at a Majors level. I've been around FV my whole life. Tire costs are ridiculous for a class that was founded on the principles of being affordable.

It's a load of crap that cars would have to be re-engineered to be competitive. You act like we're driving F1 cars. Have you forgotten that this class operates with components that are 50+ years old?

I'm sick and tired of whiny people looking for excuses not the make the class more affordable. I will be sending a letter to the BOD and the Ad-Hoc Committee voicing my desire to see a spec tire approved. I don't even care what it is. I'll adapt.

James Brookshire IV

[jpetillo]

John, you are correct. All options should be on the table, but what I personally think this process will fail. My personal opinion. We need to look at what we want as a class. At the same time what are the minimum requirements everyone is looking for.

Do we want a tire that last 3 weekend, 1 season, 3 seasons.

Is the tire choice still promote 'pay for performance' i.e. stickers will be 1 second faster than 3 heats cycles.

Costs?

Noel, the process we have followed since I've been involved in FV has so far failed in its efforts to change US FV to a spec tire as well. Currently it looks to me like we're following that exact same process one more time. All the same voices - all the same arguments - even mine.

If a new process fails to go forward, as you suggest it might, we still have the current slicks and Falkens as options. The other questions you pose are correct to ask. Some of the answers from folks will depend on the options made available - what the complete package is. They can't be answered in isolation. John

[problemchild]

Pursuing a spec tire is a waste of time. What proponents of the Falken should be doing is pushing for an alternate tire in SCCA. If the Falken or similar street radial was allowed nationally, it would be much easier to convert people over to it. The fact is that in most races the tire package is not really the decisive factor that separates the "elite" from the rest of the pack. So let those guys run on their new sticker Hoosiers every weekend while the "back markers" have just as much fun on cheap tires.

I suggested that in post #52. An organized campaign to get the Falken tire and wheel approved as a legal alternative is the best strategy to allow the most number of FV racers to be able to race more often with an affordable tire package. This can happen ASAP, regardless of the ETPF games.

[Matt King]

I suggested that in post #52. An organized campaign to get the Falken tire and wheel approved as a legal alternative is the best strategy to allow the most number of FV racers to be able to race more often with an affordable tire package. This can happen ASAP, regardless of the ETPF games.

While it would be nice to make it official, I'm not sure it's even necessary in the short term. Just do it. If a bunch of people showed up and ran them, would anybody protest? What kind of jerk would complain about somebody voluntarily running a slower tire? If the numbers of people actually running street tires starts to grow, that will be the best campaign possible.

[Daryl DeArman]

ETPF games.

A little enlightenment please? I am assuming you aren't talking about the European Tax Policy Forum.

[problemchild]

A little enlightenment please? I am assuming you aren't talking about the European Tax Policy Forum.

First mentioned in post 31. "extend the process forever" is the technique used by people who want to maintain the status quo. The SCCA system cannot protect the racers from this technique because it is designed to just bounce decisions around in never-ending loops between boards, committees, and racers. In this case, according to a post 3 of this thread, no-one is working on finding a FV spec tire solution because no one has written a letter asking SCCA to consider the idea.

[Daryl DeArman]

First mentioned in post 31. "extend the process forever" is the technique used by people who want to maintain the status quo. The SCCA system cannot protect the racers from this technique because it is designed to just bounce decisions around in never-ending loops between boards, committees, and racers. In this case, according to a post 3 of this thread, no-one is working on finding a FV spec tire solution because no one has written a letter asking SCCA to consider the idea.

Ah gotcha. Thanks.

I certainly can't speak for anybody on the FV committee, but I could tell you my observation/opinions about my dealings with Dietmar while I raced a FV. I don't see him contributing in any way to the ETPF. I don't know if it gives the appearance of a conflict of interest or if members of the committee are advised against initiating these sorts of things. I can't speak for Dietmar, but I would be surprised to learn if we was not in support of a cheaper spec tire if that is what the membership wants.

[problemchild]

Ah gotcha. Thanks.

I certainly can't speak for anybody on the FV committee, but I could tell you my observation/opinions about my dealings with Dietmar while I raced a FV. I don't see him contributing in any way to the ETPF. I don't know if it gives the appearance of a conflict of interest or if members of the committee are advised against initiating these sorts of things. I can't speak for Dietmar, but I would be surprised to learn if we was not in support of a cheaper spec tire if that is what the membership wants.

The system needs reform. It is a bunch of good hardworking people who donate all that time but accomplish nothing. In the case of the FV committee, the boards above them have totally jerked them around, asking them to do tasks, then acting before the tasks were completed, disregarding their conclusions, etc.

The cost of FV tires has been out of control for 40 years. Why does anybody have to be writing letters to tell anyone that?

People in the Northeast said we cannot wait around any longer and took action, just as some other formula groups have done. The least that SCCA can do is immediately make the Falken tire package a legal alternate tire/wheel package for 2016. Then they can start their ETPF game and eventually select whichever tire that Hoosier decides they want to build for FV. Maybe that can happen for the 60th BP.

[Mason66]

Numbers don't lie, men and woman do. Best race I have ever been a part of. 2nd thru 8th nose to tail throughout most of the race. Extremely even through out the field it was all on me and today I failed, late race spin took me out of contention. Great weekend at Pocono international!
www.challengecupseries.com

[nbrigido]

The end of the Day, the Board/Members made a decision as part of the Challenge Cup. That was to create a series that addressed the concerns of "out-of-control costs" in racing, especially FV.

Yes, SPEC tire package was adapted, that already existed in the Canadian F1200 series, No because the racers were Canadian, because the package was tested, there was data, and it has been working. Rules were also put in to control other factors (i.e. manifolds).

Does it bring more Cars out YES! not just because of a SPEC tire, but that is part of the package. But having a SPEC does allow more drivers to finically participate, which turns into mare cars, which turns into single series Grids, which means even more cars. Promotion was also a big part of this...5 Races this season, 2 PRO races and all single series grids. No bad... I think something is working..

Having a common spec also allows the participation of more drivers moving from region to region without issues.

We can keep waiting around, for someone or something to make a decision, but if this thread is an indication, there are those who do want it, and those who don't. So the process will be on coming 5 years from now.

There are so many great ideas people are putting out there, but not enough people acting, and when people do act, those that sat back, get pissy and look for every reason to prove it wrong, bad, whatever

I would say there is some pretty good support behind the Radial package right now, people that have been involved in FV racing for Many, Many years. Supporting it, working it, and guess what no one is profiting from it other than the driver themselves.

Ray Carmody
Ed Womer
Greg Rice
Bill Vallis

**apologize if I missed any other important people..

But enough of the BS. No one is saying the Falken package is the Best package.. It just exists, cost effective and is functioning. If there is a better package that can come to the table I think everyone would love to hear it.

[mikehinkle]

Can someone post the address you would send a letter to? Or a link to the information and the process for making a change?

[John LaRue]

If there is an interest in a spec tire for FV then the process that we followed in FF is what would be utilized to move forward. Send your letters to:

http://www.clubracingboard.com/

Information on the rule making process in SCCA:

http://www.scca.com/pages/rule-making-process

I hope this helps,

John

[Mason66]

I'm pretty sure there is no rule that we have to run a FV with a spec tire with the SCCA as the sanctioning body. The Challenge Cup Series has successfully run events with FORMULA RACE PROMOTIONS as well as the SCCA. With the right people in charge we can make this happen and the Challenge Cup Series currently has that, kudos to them and keep at it. The hard work is appreciated.

[Steve Bamford]

How many entrants have you had for the challenge cup series on average & what are the averages for this years Major's?

[rcarmody]

We had 19 cars Mosport 18 at Shannonville 17 Beverrun and this past weekend 14 we have one more event at New Jersey the end of the month. This past sunday was the 10th race of the series. The numbers dont lie I think we were short this past weekend because we ended up doing back to back weekends we are opening to be over 20 at the last race of the season. Maybe it time to get your vee back from Noel and do the triple at New Jersey.

[derminator]

I have watched this back and forth on the spec tire issue and just wanted to be clear. The Challenge Cup Series is an independent non profit race series and is not trying to establish a SCCA spec tire rule. We were just a group of drivers that were tired of the rising cost related to running the class. Sometimes you need to go back to go forward. This class was established as an low cost entry level racing class, But overtime and with everything in racing cost started to rise. We decided among ourselves to establish a race series that went back to basics. We chose the tire package we did because it was an established package and why reinvent the wheel. Throughout this thread there has been helpful information for those that would like to approach SCCA about a spec tire. The way I see it's you have 4 choices.

1. Do the work to get SCCA to establish a spec tire

2. Don't do anything and continue on the current wheel package

3. Start your own series and establish your own rules. Trust me having been part of this process its not easy.

4. Reach out to a group of guys that have already started a series and see what they are doing and join them.

To answer your question Steve I think we are averaging 16 cars for the 4 races so far and growing, we have over 30 members now. Our goal was for 2015 was 15 cars and for 2016 we are working on a few things which we think could see fields of 25 cars. But what really makes this enjoyable is seeing the great racing and guys have fun again.

[Ed Womer]

Parker, no new Womer and Kevin's car is sold. I will be borrowing Dermot's BRD for NJ and it is in my shop for some adjustments.

By adopting the Canadian wheel and tire package the Challenge Cup Series didn't need to reinvent the wheel and it has been a success so far. I heard that a driver who tried the Falkens at Pocono and I think also ran the SCCA class on slicks said that he wanted the Falkens back because they were more fun!

Although we were down a few cars at Pocono I thought the racing was great from the infield stand I watched from. For those who ran both the Challenge and the SCCA I didn't notice anyone who did anything other than change tires so I don't think there is any big concern for having to make adjustments. Will there be competitors who chose to tweak the car to obtain the best from the Falkens? I am sure that will happen but it has been happening since the class started and I don't see it changing since the tinker can not be stopped but I don't think it will involve huge sums of money, just the creative juices that some people have.

As for those who mentioned about understeer with the Falkens, after over 30 years of racing FV I have seen many understeering vee's on slicks and it usually is a matter of driver comfort and on most cars can bee adjusted in or out on most chassis. Some of us were talking about handeling and Dean Curtis said in response to driving a lose car that he lives for the feeling and if you want to go fast lose is almost always faster, you just only need to keep on the track, but it sure is fun doing it!

Ed

[Bruce]

Honestly, cannot even begin to answer that question. Nor do I think it is relevant. Everyone is looking at the as Falken or nothing? Which, is not the case. (from post #80)

The reason I asked is this thread is asking the majority of the country to buy the falken spec tire rule, which will cost them, because as the rule is written now, being tires are open, they can run whatever tire they want as long as it fits the existing rims.

Each Region can write their own spec tire rule now. Just as it seems you have in the NE Region.

We have options now that exists. In the SF region, we have a spec tire rule, so we use the AR tire. It has a lower cost and durability with out loss of performance or an added cost and loss of a rims. As for rain tires, I really can't remember the last time we out here needed them. I still own a set of Goodyear dog bones that were first used in Atlanta for the Runoffs in '80. I've only used them once and have lowned them out twice since. As you can see, rain is really not a big concern.

Do you now see, why I asked those two questions?

As a side note, a competitor from our region went to the Runoff at Mid Ohio and ran AR's. That was in 2003. He started P24 and finished in P15. He was also featured in Sportscar magazine that year.

[craigs]

The falken package or any other non-FV spec package can be run now in FS, just be sure to register that way.

[Tiago Santos]

What kind of jerk would complain about somebody voluntarily running a slower tire?

Probably one those "elitists"

[Tiago Santos]

Numbers don't lie, men and woman do. Best race I have ever been a part of. 2nd thru 8th nose to tail throughout most of the race. Extremely even through out the field it was all on me and today I failed, late race spin took me out of contention. Great weekend at Pocono international!
www.challengecupseries.com

I don't think the "elitists" have any interest in racing that close with the plebes.

[problemchild]

I don't think the "elitists" have any interest in racing that close with the plebes.

That is funny. The idea of elitists in FV is funny all by itself. I was once called an elitist. I suggested SCCA should blackflag slow cars at the Runoffs before they could get lapped (on a 4 mile track in a 50 mile race.)

I hope that most FV racers would rather go several seconds per lap slower in a 20-car single class race than race with 3 cars in a mixed class race. We shall see!

[budawe]

I can appreciate the frustration with the lengthy SCCA rule process but it's really the only way we can do anything on a nation wide basis. Folks have had the option to do things locally for a long time. The folks in the NE are doing their Falken thing, SF region did a AR slick and there have been others like VEEROC. In reality, there have only been a couple of local successful efforts.

The real challenge is to reach out to the folks that don't hang out on these forums and get them involved.

To date, there are 4 letters in the CRB file. Three of which are arguing about tire choice. We can do better! Write them letters folks! It only takes a few more minutes than another forum post.

[vdrcr]

So, If I happen to turn up to Palmer, or Thompson with a set of Falcons on, is anyone going to protest me?

[mikehinkle]

I might join you!
Where did you get the Falkens?

[jeffa711]

I might join you!
Where did you get the Falkens?

I think almost any tire supplier even Walmart may be able to get them the harder part may be getting the wheels to go with the package.

[nbrigido]

I think almost any tire supplier even Walmart may be able to get them the harder part may be getting the wheels to go with the package.

Dermot Ennis (dermotennis@comcast.net) has inventory of wheels. No issue there.

[problemchild]

So, If I happen to turn up to Palmer, or Thompson with a set of Falcons on, is anyone going to protest me?

I might join you!
Where did you get the Falkens?

You guys should come to NJ. I am personally going to offer sponsorship for outsiders and/or elitists who want to try out the tires and the Series. $100/car limited to the first 5. Dermot will rent you a set of wheels/tires and you will have $50 left for some fuel.

Anybody else? Send me a note.

[grapefarmeral]

I thought that a spec tire was a great idea three years ago so I bought a set of Falkens and went to Canada. They're great, you just bolt them on and go.

Forget all this talk of re- engineering, blah, blah, blah........

Borrow a set and race on them and then state your opinion... if you haven't driven on them you don't have a clue and shouldn't be pontificating

[gbmetcalf]

You guys should come to NJ. I am personally going to offer sponsorship for outsiders and/or elitists who want to try out the tires and the Series. $100/car limited to the first 5. Dermot will rent you a set of wheels/tires and you will have $50 left for some fuel.

Anybody else? Send me a note.

My set of mounted Falkens are also available, as I unfortunately will not be competing this season. I want anyone that wants to try these out to have the opportunity to do so.

G.

[craigs]

So, If I happen to turn up to Palmer, or Thompson with a set of Falcons on, is anyone going to protest me?

Just run in FS and no one can protest you that way - never mind that you will get first place hardware!

[problemchild]

So, If I happen to turn up to Palmer, or Thompson with a set of Falcons on, is anyone going to protest me?

This is the part where your FV friends speak up and say" Of course we will find away to keep you in our race group. We cannot afford to send several FVs to another race group. Car counts are way too important. We want you to come out and participate as often as you possibly can'.

[Agitator]

I'm tentatively scheduled to run a test day at Roebling Road (Savannah, GA) in early December. Our car hasn't been run in about 7 years, and we may be making some significant changes to it this fall. Is there anyone running the Falkens that would consider sending them to me to test out? I'd gladly pay shipping both ways. I'll probably start on slicks, then switch, just to remind myself of the differences!

Again, right now this is tentative, but the date is set, just need to make sure the car is ready. PM me if interested and I will stay in touch as the date gets nearer.

Thanks in advance,
James

PS - Stevan Davis, this is a test day that Donnie is putting on. If you're interested in trying the tires at the same time, I'll see if he can work us some sort of discount...He may owe me a favor or two

[Rolling Stone]

Good job your doing it in Georgia in Dec,it would be FALKEN Snow tire testing here

[problemchild]

I'm tentatively scheduled to run a test day at Roebling Road (Savannah, GA) in early December. Our car hasn't been run in about 7 years, and we may be making some significant changes to it this fall. Is there anyone running the Falkens that would consider sending them to me to test out? I'd gladly pay shipping both ways. I'll probably start on slicks, then switch, just to remind myself of the differences!

Again, right now this is tentative, but the date is set, just need to make sure the car is ready. PM me if interested and I will stay in touch as the date gets nearer.

Thanks in advance,
James

PS - Stevan Davis, this is a test day that Donnie is putting on. If you're interested in trying the tires at the same time, I'll see if he can work us some sort of discount...He may owe me a favor or two

There should be someone heading south for the ARRC that could bring some tires down and save 20% of their value in shipping costs. There won't be much use for them up here then. Perhaps you should just send Steven to race in NJ and he could then let you try his.

[Ed Womer]

Dean Curtis is willing to bring tires down for you guys to try just get in touch with Dean his contact info is at the Challenge Cup Series near the bottom of the forms page.

Ed